is jesus, god?

reply to post by coolottie


I agree that we are all children of God. I cringed when I saw what that whackjob of a Governor that just got elected in Alabama said about people who aren't Christians not being his brothers and sisters. OMG!!! Why do they always film and quote the Christian idiots and bigots???? lol I would think most of us aren't like that.... and if they are then they don't understand our religion at all. As for your children, I would never tell you they were in hell. How should I know? Only God can judge, and only God knows the true inner workings of Salvation. We really are like lost sheep. I'm glad to see you haven't lost your faith in Him. Hard times have a way of brining even the most faithful to question their beliefs. I've questioned mine a lot, and I've had it relatively easy. Btw, sorry for being ignorant but I don't understand the INUN thing. Could you explain it to me? Also, don't forget that until Christ reclaims us, we are deserving of death with no good in us.
Romans 8:9-31
9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, 10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands, no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one." 13 "Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." 14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood, 16 in their paths are ruin and misery, 17 and the way of peace they do not know." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith. 28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

You won't hear from me for awhile. I've been neglecting my work, and my lunch, this morning. Rest assured that I will keep an eye out for your responses, and will respond to you ASAP. Thank you for the discussion, and God bless you.
Aj

reply to post by one_man24
I asked my Dad when he was attending Emory, if all the people before Jesus came went to Hell. He said no. We now have discovered that man lived on earth as far back as 3 million years. Do I think they all went to Hell, I don't. Jesus preached love, love of neighbor, and even love for our enemies. If you condemn me and say I am going to hell, then how can you love me. Why do we have wars. People worship Jesus, but still have hate in their heart for others. That was his message, but how many people really got the message. All they care about is that he died for your sins. But if you sin and worship Jesus more than God, is that a free card to Heaven. I love everyone on this planet and beyond. God said put no other god before me.

reply to post by one_man24
I didn't understand it for a while myself. Speak the letters out loud. Jesus taught me to love all, and my minister father. I honor Jesus's message and work at keeping hate out of my heart. To me his life and message is what I focus on more than his death.

reply to post by coolottie


You are setting up straw men and burning them down like it's Charyou Tree time or something!!! (dark tower reference, sorry)

But seriously though, you are taking this to a place I never went. I never said you were going to hell, and I agree with your father about the people who came before Jesus. God promised the Savior to Adam and Eve from the very beginning! Jesus is eternal, therefore in only makes sense that His sacrifice would also be eternal, IE applying to all mankind in past, present, and future. That's what makes it so special. God became flesh, and gave His life so that ALL MANKIND could be saved!!!! Isn't God wonderful? Also, man existed 3 million years ago? I'm not really into the creation vs evolution debate, but I don't belive that Evolutionist (or whoever would date man's origins) place early hominids back so far. Source please? Also, we have wars because the world is...wait for it....you ready for this....contaminated by the original sin brought into this world when Adam and Eve first disobeyed God in the very beginning of all this!!!! And what Christians believe you can just go sin and do whatever and you are forgiven as long as you believe in Jesus? That sounds pretty hypocritical to me (ring a bell? Jesus called the Pharisees and Sadducees hypocrites because they didn't practice what they preached). I would think that true Christians would want to lead a Godly life, not because it earns salvation, but because as children of God we want to follow His ways and reflect the love the He first showed us by reclaiming us from the darkness!!! Are you sure you're a Christian? Pleae don't take any offense at that question, but seriously..... this is not complex stuff here, it's the basis of the whole religion!


OK REALLY.....Gotta work and eat. Be back later.

reply to post by one_man24
Sorry I did put "if" I think, I surely didn't mean you personally. I was refferring to so many Christians and other faiths, that if you don't believe what they say you go to hell. I love the points you are making and I believe we agree more than disagree.

Originally posted by swordwords

If we continue down the road of metaphor and allegory, it is easy to make sense of this. Kabbalists can provide more than a hundred names for God, but it is blasphemy to say his real name “YHWH” which is also referred to as the “Tetragrammaton”. This single example illustrates the true nature of religious allegory. A real world idea is given a wide variety of metaphors, but it is forbidden to expose the true meaning to the uninitiated masses. Since “life” represents literal meanings, “death” belongs to that which is hidden so if you see the “face” of God you become metaphorically dead since your knowledge can never be allowed into the literal world. Because the real name of God must be kept secret at all costs, it is itself, given the mask of “YHWH” that hides its true form and it also the provides the metaphoric lift to keep God in “heaven“. In other words, “YHWH” also serves as a symbol of God’s hidden nature.

In the Gnostic Gospel of Truthit is said that “…the name of the Father is the Son.” This means that the “Son” is one of the names that serves to hide God’s true face, thus it is possible for people to look upon “Christ” without “dying“. This also offers a clue as to the role that a “mother” plays in all of this. To put it another way: Real world idea + Name = Child. Under this formula a “virgin” birth represents a person that never existed or as it has been more openly expressed “the Word became flesh”.

sounds like a lot of dualistic nonsense. first you separate yourself from "god". then decide you cant say his name. what mental distortions you indulge in. you think a "god" would give a damn if you called/spoke his name? why?, why would offense occur?

until everyone gets off the dualistic perceptions, they'll be stuck with their mental crap.

"keep god in heaven"? what? he has a space time thingy where he resides? what if it collapses? is he done for?

reply to post by LanMan54


"AS THE SCRIPTURES SAY. THOSE WHO OPPOSE GOD AND CHRIST TO THIS DAY ARE GOVERNED BY THE CARNAL SPIRIT, THE DEVIL INSIDE! ANY OBJECTIVE LOOK AT WHAT GOES ON IN THIS CORRUPT WORLD PROVES THAT THE CARNAL SPIRIT RULES THIS WORLD. HOWEVER, THIS WILL NOT LAST FOREVER, "

its worth remembering that your bible states that all things were made by god. so god is also responsible for any carnal spirit that exists, whether satanic or not. never mind freewill,

the potential for evil is gods creation.

from a dualistic point of view of course.

Is Jesus God?

Of course he is.
We all are.

well kids we are still not playing nice with one and other. i have a saying, know yourself and you will know every body else. but the truth is that we dont want to face our self's. anyhow listen to one love by bob marley, the man's on the right track. stay safe.

reply to post by Gary13


Who wasn't playing nice? And did you read what I wrote? I'd love to hear what you thought of it. Thanks!

Originally posted by LanMan54
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

You don't understand the scriptures. Jesus said that unless one was 'born anew' that they could not see the kingdom of God. Unless the carnal spirit within you is replaced with the Holy Spirit you cannot see, nor enter, the kingdom of God. Doing 'good works' does not get you into the kingdom of God.

Good works are not a substitute for a life free of sin.
Doing works by your own power can not balance out or make up for evil acts.
A life without good works that grow out of a spiritual connection to God is not one that will be allowed to continue on in Heaven, a spiritually pure place where God is.
If I am wrong, feel free to let me know.
I don't on purpose want to be wrong.
This is just how I feel and feel safe enough in my conclusion to pass this thought on to others.

Jesus is god in the Christian sense. While in Judaism Jesus or any other individual cannot be G-d.
G-d and Us (Chabad Articles)

reply to post by one_man24


ye, ive just looked through your reply to my post. on your first reply, you quoted john, when jesus was questioned. to one of the questions, he answers with i'am. this just means he was already alive but in heaven, so he wasn't saying he was god, but he was saying he was there, but like we all do, we jump to the wrong conclusions. and as always the first thing we do is kill. so what is it then, is jesus, god, or what. yes or no. on the second reply to me you said who wasn't playing nice. we all think the we are nice. but in reality were not. so dont delude yourself. dont forget what we are described as, children. and as we know, if you leave children alone, it won't belong before they get themselves in to trouble, then the name calling, and the finger pointing starts. then, well you can see it for your self what mess us children are in. stay safe

reply to post by Gary13


Gary,

Thank you for taking the time to address my posts. First of all, where did you come up with your analysis of the passage in John? Do you have a source that backs this view up scripturally, or is this your personal interpretation? If this is solely your interpretation, do you have the education that qualifies you to make this analysis? Have you studied the old testatment, the torah, the ways of the Jews, both their religion and their society? Do you know Jesus background as a Jew? Have you cross examined these passages with other passages that may shed light on what Jesus meant? Have you studied the Bible in culture and context so you can try to understand where they were coming from? These are all very important quesions, and knowledge I would think you would want to have before making a judgement on these things. What Jesus would have studied just as a young Jewish male alone would certainly make Him hesitant of making such a statement as "Before Abraham was, I am.", let alone the fact that he was a Rabbi (which goes beyond the standard religious instruction all male Jews received). God uses the words "Eyeh asher eyyeh", or in english, I AM THAT I AM (or I shall be that I shall be, I am He who is, I am He who was, I am THE BEING, all are correct interpretations) to describe Himself, even as His own name, in Exodus Chapter 3. Check it out:
Exodus 3:13-15
"13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."

When we temper the reading of the passage in John with this knowledge (and you can find God using I am as a name for Himself in many other places in the Bible,I'm just keeping this simple), it is obvious that Jesus is equating Himself with the father, both in His divinity, eternal existence, and even His authority over death (John Chapter 8:51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he will never see death"). Jesus knew exactly what He was claiming, He knew the reaction it would provoke from the Jews (who once again all understood the significance of what Jesus was saying), and yet He still said it. There is so much more that points to Jesus being God in the bible, but it is not for me to lead you through that journey. I have packed your bags and bought your ticket. You have to get on the plane yourself so to speak, and do the research. I' think that with serious, objective study (IE,no presuppositions while you study the Bible), you'll find that Jesus did claim divinity. There is just no other explanation that That leaves us with 3/5 options (3 for me, 5 for others maybe):

1. He was an Idiot
2. He was insane.
3. He was what He claimed, fully God and man.

And just for some of you:

4. He was a clever deceiver.
5. He never existed at all.

Now with that aside, I agree that we are described as children in the Bible. I also agree that we can sometime descend into child-like behavior, especially when discussing things we are passionate about, but don't dismiss me out of hand like you just did. You don't know me, and you don't know my intentions. I've had my times of posting in anger, being snarky, etc., but we all come to mature both in Christ and just in life in general. I can assure that I have been playing nice this whole time, and I hope for nothing more than to share the message with you and possibly give you some food for thought. It is a difficult subject to explain, discuss, even to accept. How can a God become man? How can He be both God and Man at the same time? How can He and the Father be one, but seperate? I don't have all the answers, but through learning and studying God's word I have enough. Don't ever stop reading the Bible. It is the key to solving this mystery. Don't take my word for any of this, I implore you. Go find out for yourself. Check to see if what I'm saying is true. Read the Bible, join a study group, go to church, pray, meditate, anything to learn more, and think on these things. These are the times where God will call out to you, take of hold of you, and claim you as His own.

Not going into the actual historical issues, but based on what we have in the Bible, Jesus "IS" God, in the sense that we ALL are God. Jesus is a manifestation of God enlightened that he is God, and his message was to show all people that they too are God. When asked if he was the son of God, he says, "ye are all sons of God", and "all this that I do, ye can do, do better than I". And "I and my Father are One", etc.... He is like a Buddha, or an Avatar, a Yogi, a Swami, a Jivanmukta, he was teaching that our true self is not this meterial world, but eternal spirit. Sad his message got lost and distorted.

reply to post by one_man24


thank you for getting back to me so soon. looking at exodus 3:15 in the good news bible, the term I'AM is used, in the new world transaction, the name jehovah is used. i have a copy of the king james version to, but a friend has it, so i can't check what is used in that version at the moment. now with many different versions going around of the bible, my question is why, anyhow as i said earlier, all jesus said was i'am, he did not call himself yahweh, did he. the change of a word can do untold damage, the bible warns us about being in satan's system. would not he want to confuse us, may be.

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by swordwords

 

In the Gnostic Gospel of Truthit is said that “…the name of the Father is the Son.”

I really think that is supposed to read, "the Sun," instead of the Son. All religions are based on ancient Sun worship, after all, Christianity is no different from the rest.

While I doubt that the translator erred in his translation of the Gospel of Truth, I will take your suggestion and run with it (or at least “walk” with it.)

As I said, one real world idea can have multiple metaphors and frequently these metaphoric relationships are based on similar phonetics and if the metaphoric relationship is important enough to preserve in translations, then you will see the phonetic connections carried over into other languages. (The role that phonetics plays in metaphoric connections is explained in Plato’s Cratylus.) Now, note the Hebrew word for “name” is “shem” while the Hebrew word for “sun” is “shemesh” so the “sun” is related to the concept of names and this brings your suggestion into agreement with my position. And while I am on this track, I will also note that the “oil” that is used for “anointing” is expressed in Hebrew as “shemen”. Then, of course, this metaphoric connection comes full circle when naming something is referred to as “christening”. You can also think of Simon Peter as an "oiled rock" that "denied Christ" and in which the names were changed to protect the guilty (sinners saved by the Savior).

It is really all about names (or metaphors), but don’t expect your local shaman to admit it. And if you begin to sense that the casting of “spells” is related to spelling and a “magic wand” refers to a writing implement, then you are beginning to see the how all of this is connected.

reply to post by Gary13


en.wikipedia.org...

The name Jehovah is a translation of the Tetragrammaton (Hebrew: יהוה‎, transliterated as YHWH). According to Jewish tradition, the name of God was not spoken and the original pronunciation is unknown. The New World Translation uses the name Jehovah 6,973 times in the Old Testament, and also inserts the name 237 times in the New Testament where the original texts use terms for 'Lord' or 'God'. The translators believe that because the name was used liberally in the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament available at that time, that the New Testament writers also used the name when quoting from them. They conclude that the lack of references to Jehovah in those quotations were the result of paraphrasing on the part of later copyists, as with the removal of God's name from the Old Testament.

another from the same site
Samuel Haas, in his 1955 review of the 1953 first volume of the New World Translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, in the Journal of Biblical Literature, stated that "this work indicates a great deal of effort and thought as well as considerable scholarship, it is to be regretted that religious bias was allowed to colour many passages."[

The NWT is a very, very highly debtaed, hotly contested translation because of the bias used when translating. They also specifically insert Jehovah in place of other names for God. Don't just take my, or wikipedia's (not always the best, I used it because in this instance I know it to be correct) word for it. Research for yourself.

To quote you: "now with many different versions going around of the bible, my question is why, anyhow as i said earlier, all jesus said was i'am, he did not call himself yahweh, did he"

Sir, your making me feel like you don't even read my posts. To any orthodox Jew of any caliber, to make the statement "Before Abraham, was I am" is to do just that, to literally say I AM the same as God. He referred to Himself as I am, which would have been blasphemous to highest extent, and a big mistake for anyone who didn't truly have the authority of God behind him.
Here's another passage for you to check out:
John Chapter 10
24 So the Jews gathered round him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness to me; 26 but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?" 33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God."

This occurs two chapters later than the previous example, and Jesus tune hasn't changed. He still puts himself on par with God by claiming to be one with the Father. If that's not enough, what do the Jews do in response? Again they pick up stones to execute him, which is the correct biblical response technically. See Lev 16, if you need to do so. When Jesus asks them for which good work are they stoning Him for, they reply not for the works, but for blasphemy, because being a man you make yourself God. It's right there for all to see. The Jews knew that only God had the authority to forgive sins and to heal the sick. We see instances in the Bible where God worked through Prohpets and Priests to accomplish these things, but not so here. Jesus speaks as if he were the Father Himself, with all the authority of Heaven behind Him. The Jews weren't confused about His claims. Why are you?

reply to post by one_man24


too many people, too many opinions. who's to say who's right or wrong. take christianity for instance. as we are selfs have different thoughts on thing's, that happens in side christianity. unless we all take up the same view, and stick to it, it won't work. if the parts of a machine started not doing there job, and started doing something else, would the machine run properly, i think not. stay safe.

Originally posted by orangutang

Originally posted by swordwords

If we continue down the road of metaphor and allegory, it is easy to make sense of this. Kabbalists can provide more than a hundred names for God, but it is blasphemy to say his real name “YHWH” which is also referred to as the “Tetragrammaton”. This single example illustrates the true nature of religious allegory. A real world idea is given a wide variety of metaphors, but it is forbidden to expose the true meaning to the uninitiated masses. Since “life” represents literal meanings, “death” belongs to that which is hidden so if you see the “face” of God you become metaphorically dead since your knowledge can never be allowed into the literal world. Because the real name of God must be kept secret at all costs, it is itself, given the mask of “YHWH” that hides its true form and it also the provides the metaphoric lift to keep God in “heaven“. In other words, “YHWH” also serves as a symbol of God’s hidden nature.

In the Gnostic Gospel of Truthit is said that “…the name of the Father is the Son.” This means that the “Son” is one of the names that serves to hide God’s true face, thus it is possible for people to look upon “Christ” without “dying“. This also offers a clue as to the role that a “mother” plays in all of this. To put it another way: Real world idea + Name = Child. Under this formula a “virgin” birth represents a person that never existed or as it has been more openly expressed “the Word became flesh”.

sounds like a lot of dualistic nonsense. first you separate yourself from "god". then decide you cant say his name. what mental distortions you indulge in. you think a "god" would give a damn if you called/spoke his name? why?, why would offense occur?

until everyone gets off the dualistic perceptions, they'll be stuck with their mental crap.

"keep god in heaven"? what? he has a space time thingy where he resides? what if it collapses? is he done for?

I don’t expect very many people to get this, but virtually all religion is based on allegory and allegory is dualistic--the above and the below, the literal and the hidden. There is nothing “supernatural” here. (I mean by the literal understanding of this word.) By understanding this “dualistic nonsense” as allegory, I am able to make sense of it. I see its true purpose and meaning. I see the why.

God serves basically as a metaphor for hidden knowledge and hidden knowledge is not allowed into the literal world (heaven). It can only be represented there metaphorically and symbolically. This allegory has certain rules that must be maintained, however, the physical world’s rules related to space/time are not among them. History is moved from place to place with the change of a few names which allows for “reincarnation”. (This is also known as the “grafting of vines”.) Countries, cities, and even buildings serve as metaphors so one can be in “Egypt” and with the twist of a word, travel instantaneously to “Jerusalem“. Removing or changing a metaphor does nothing except add or subtract to knowledge and perhaps upset the “balance”, however, if sufficient hidden knowledge is exposed, you do end up with what has been metaphorically referred to as “The Apocalypse”.