Palestina recongized as "Free and Sovereign Nation" within 1967 borders.

Originally posted by pthena
Those religions seem very flawed to me, that sacrifice humans for the sake of some purely materialistic religious goal.

You are talking about Islam and not Judaism, so don't say "Those" religions, say "That" religion.

Hamas promises it's "fighters" to have 72 virgins after blowing themselves up among Jews and bases this promise on the Quran. See; Jihad.

Are you really convinced that a modern and calculated army like the IDF even uses biblic rhetorics?

Just give it up and admit it. You're involving religion into these matters because you aren't keen on the subject. Apparently you know almost nothing about the middle east crisis so you feel the need to contribute and add some stupid BS from the bible all the time. Hint: Stop it. You're not contributing anything besides the derailing of the subject. This is a political forum damnit.

Originally posted by GirlGenius
If they get a state, they may not feel the need to send rockets anymore

Wishful thinking.
Do explain how a sovereign nation led under Hamas which doesn't recognize Israel as a state at all, is any different than what we have now.

Please answer the question directly and don't move onto other matters like depleted uranium or low sperm count. Simply don't avoid the question.

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


I did elaborate. You must have missed that. Israeli does need a rocket to creat discord in the region. They drive the discord. This is what I really think will happen:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Someone seems to think that my post signifies that I am hoping Israel and occupants will all be nuked. I never said that and do not feel that way. I just think that is what it will come to, sadly, even before the males drop to sub-fertile. They are doomed one way or the other. I pray for the souls of everyone in the region. Get out while you can. Most wealthy Israelis have already left.

reply to post by GirlGenius

Someone seems to think that my post signifies that I am hoping Israel and occupants will all be nuked. I never said that and do not feel that way

Of course your comments has never led anyone to believe you had those views in anyway. Nevertheless zionists will accuse you of these genocidal tendencies for a number of reasons.

The reasons includes a genuine inability by zionists to justify the unjustifiable therefore they will derail the discourse by accusing you of being an advocate of genocide, of being a nazi and of being an antiSemite. Zionists did this to Archbishop Desmond Tutu.

Is Tutu anti-Semitic? October 5 2007 at 03:47pm By Hans Pienaar

Archbishop emeritus Desmond Tutu has been barred from addressing students at an American university after local Jewish community leaders condemned him as an anti-Semite and anti-Israel.

www.iol.co.za...

Jews in South Africa and the UK mobilised to have archbishop Tutu defrocked from the Anglican Church until he announced his retirement so what hope can any of us private civilians have if we exclaim our voices of conscience of not being accused and labeled as antiSemitic. People like us are genuinely crucified by zionists in our countries if in the West and rendered unemployable or given notice to the local police by "antiracist" Jewish groups like the ADL.

A zionist will also accuse you of being genocidal with conviction because they are generally fanatics and pathological narcissists. Zionists genuinely feel entitled to do as they wish against the Palestinians and can see no wrong, therefore, if you criticise them for their behaviour you have an evil and genocidal intent.

A zionist will also accuse you of being an antiSemite so that the label could be shared with others. Zionists share internet information on Hasbara website and similar places of youtubers, forum members, bloggers whom they accuse of being antiSemites or antiIsraelis. For the zionists, being antiSemites or antiIsraelis is an interchangeable libel. If the Amnesty International is critical of Israeli deathsquads, they will accuse the Amnesty International of being antiSemites.

Zionists accuse Mother Teresa of being an antiSemite and after death, her name was dragged through the mud.

reply to post by IsraeliGuy

Just give it up and admit it. You're involving religion into these matters because you aren't keen on the subject. Apparently you know almost nothing about the middle east crisis so you feel the need to contribute and add some stupid BS from the bible all the time. Hint: Stop it. You're not contributing anything besides the derailing of the subject. This is a political forum damnit.

You are right. I offer you my apology.

I admit that I was born in the U.S.A. in the mid 1950s.

I admit that all my life I only was taught or exposed to a very slanted one-sided view of the Middle East conflict, to wit, the wonderful god blessed Israeli's were horribly terrorized by the Marxist PLO, and it is my god-given task to support Israel in it's existential struggle against the god-less communist forces arrayed against them.

I've read your other posts. You say "It's all Hamas. If Hamas was gone, then there could be peace." But I remember being taught by American MSM, and Official US statements that "Arafat is the problem, once he's gone, and someone of Israeli and US approval, such as Abbas, is leader, then there will be a 'partner for peace'".

Now, Arafat is gone. Abbas has overstayed his election, the democratically elected Hamas parliamentarians have been jailed, U.S. and Israel have delegitimized the last actual democratically held elections. And now the Islamic Hamas is the "obstruction of peace" now that the Marxists have no real power.

What am I to conclude? That no matter who leads Palestine, Israel will always be under the cloud of existential threat?

reply to post by pthena


I didn't read that you specified one way or the other so all I would add is that Abbas ran under Fatah, he is not a member of Hamas. Despite this fact, Israel still often refuses to meet with him.

I absolutely agree that it makes no difference who leads the Palestinians, Israel will always claim issue with them as their goal is drive all non Jews from the area.

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


The U.N. commission report debunked the school yard claim, the human shield claim, and stated that Israel targeted their facilities in Gaza.

Sorry, I'm going to believe the UN over Israel's investigation of itself.

Originally posted by pthena
I admit that I was born in the U.S.A. in the mid 1950s.

I admit that all my life I only was taught or exposed to a very slanted one-sided view of the Middle East conflict, to wit, the wonderful god blessed Israeli's were horribly terrorized by the Marxist PLO, and it is my god-given task to support Israel in it's existential struggle against the god-less communist forces arrayed against them.

This has absolutely nothing to do with you rambling on with your biblic BS that has no relation what-so-ever to any subject at all, for sure not the one we are discussing at this thread.

It's like you insist on remaining ignorant and forcing us to read your totally unrelated rambling about some facts from the bible like it's of any importance to the subject. Move on with the times man.

I've read your other posts. You say "It's all Hamas. If Hamas was gone, then there could be peace." But I remember being taught by American MSM, and Official US statements that "Arafat is the problem, once he's gone, and someone of Israeli and US approval, such as Abbas, is leader, then there will be a 'partner for peace'".

Now, Arafat is gone. Abbas has overstayed his election, the democratically elected Hamas parliamentarians have been jailed, U.S. and Israel have delegitimized the last actual democratically held elections. And now the Islamic Hamas is the "obstruction of peace" now that the Marxists have no real power.

What am I to conclude? That no matter who leads Palestine, Israel will always be under the cloud of existential threat?

It's either you try to play dumb, or you pretend to be extremely naive.

The PLO was nowday's Hamas. It's dead obvious.
Arafat was, aswell, a terror organization leader. It's only by chance that Rabbin thought he is the partner for peace and therefore handed out weapons to the PLO at later stages of the conflict in order for them to be a democratic ruling party (hence the nobel prize). Obviously it failed. That move by Rabbin was heavily criticized in Israel, and if you wanna speak conspiracies - to this day many people believe that the murder of Rabbin was orchestrated by the Mossad, and believe it or not - lots of people benefited from that.

You are supposed to conclude this simple fact - a partner for peace with Israel, OBVIOUSLY ENOUGH, should be a partner that recognizes Israel.

Are you in any way implying that it is somehow possible to make peace with an organization that denies the right of Israel to exist? You must be really disturbed if it does.

Also, Hamas didn't get democratically elected. Ofcourse if you count out stationing men in voting booths with AK47s, forcing people to vote Hamas - democratic.

When you reply to this post, please refrain from any BS you interpret from the bible due to me not giving two rats asses about it.

reply to post by searching4truth

Fatah
is a major Palestinian political party and the largest faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), a multi-party confederation. In Palestinian politics it is on the left-wing of the spectrum; it is mainly nationalist, although not predominantly socialist. Its main goal, as stated in Article 12 of the official Fatah constitution, is the "complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence."

Fatah is generally considered to have had a strong involvement in revolutionary struggle in the past and has maintained a number of militant/terrorist groups, though unlike its rival Islamist faction Hamas, Fatah is not currently regarded as a terrorist organization by any government.

Fatah was founded by "that evil Marxist" Arafat in 1957. Notice that as soon as Fatah lost in the election of 2006 to Hamas, the US and Israel started pumping money, arms, and military/police training into Fatah in order to pit them against Hamas even though Fatah still officially still stands for "complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence." A clear divide and conquer strategy engineered by the US and Israel.

Israel will always claim issue with them as their goal is drive all non Jews from the area.

The goal is Ersatz Israel, which includes zero Palestine, all Israel, with enough ethnic cleansing to insure at least an 80% majority Jewish population. That's a lot of criminal ethnic cleansing to reach that 80%.

Originally posted by searching4truth
The U.N. commission report debunked the school yard claim, the human shield claim, and stated that Israel targeted their facilities in Gaza.

Do address me to the "debunking" of the school yard claim and make sure it shows the proofs ofcourse. Otherwise I'd dare to think the UN is a biased organization. Duh.

Originally posted by IsraeliGuy

Originally posted by searching4truth
The U.N. commission report debunked the school yard claim, the human shield claim, and stated that Israel targeted their facilities in Gaza.

Do address me to the "debunking" of the school yard claim and make sure it shows the proofs ofcourse. Otherwise I'd dare to think the UN is a biased organization. Duh.

You are a very demanding poster..
Why the hell can't you do your own research???

Don't bother TELLING me what you DEMAND I reply cause I assure you, you will NOT get me doing as YOU say..
What a rude, uneducated person you are...
Learn how debate works...

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


More biased than a country doing an investigation into their own war crimes, somehow I doubt their opinion is balanced.

For quick reference: en.wikipedia.org... es here you notice that two Israeli soldiers were charged with using a 9 year old boy as a human shield.

Link to Goldstone report www2.ohchr.org...

reply to post by backinblack


Yeah, I told someone (not Israeliguy) to look something up and after he/she insisted I was just making stuff up. Problem is you never hear back when and if they looked it up.

I'll provide it this time, but something as easy to find as the Goldstone report, is just laziness. I spend half my signed in ats time researching things people say, but hey I like to be informed.

reply to post by IsraeliGuy

It's like you insist on remaining ignorant and forcing us to read your totally unrelated rambling about some facts from the bible like it's of any importance to the subject. Move on with the times man.

This is the thanks and gratitude I get for being the twisted and ignorant product of a lifetime's worth of pro-Israel propoganda?

You are supposed to conclude this simple fact - a partner for peace with Israel, OBVIOUSLY ENOUGH, should be a partner that recognizes Israel.

Are you in any way implying that it is somehow possible to make peace with an organization that denies the right of Israel to exist? You must be really disturbed if it does.

I have been trying very hard to educate myself about the issues. I have also been indoctrinated about American notions of Democracy, some of these notions I do believe in still. Such as:

1) A white democratic America violates the notion of democracy.
2) A Christian Democratic America violates the notion of democracy.

In the same way, the notion of a Jewish Democratic State of Israel violates the notion of democracy. Therefore, I do not, and probably never will recognize the right of "A Jewish State of Israel" to exist, while calling it democratic.

I would gladly accept a one state solution of all Democratic Israel and no Palestine and even that state being recognized as the Jewish homeland. No problem whatsoever, as long as full right of return for Palestinians is observed, full voting rights for all adult citizens regardless of ethnicity, religious affiliation, and any other classification that distinguishes one group of people from another.

But you see the problem with my dream solution, the Zionists will never accept 'not being the majority'. Therefore, the best compromise I can think of is a two-state solution, with all illegal Jewish only settlements removed from Palestinian land, including East Jerusalem.

The schoolyard crap was examined at length over a year ago here on ATS.

A favorite trick of the Gazans or Palestinians is to use children to run out and drop a round down a mortar tube, or send kids out to perform the actual firing of a rocket, or using schools and hospitals to launch mortars or missiles from.

For these ragheads, it's a win/win.

If the Israelis DON'T hit them, they got away with some rounds out.

If the Israelis DO hit back, they get to claim that Israel is targeting children and schools.

We saw the same Islamic BS in Iraq, even driving women and children out in front as a screen to their firing.

Folks.

Wake up and look around.

reply to post by FarArcher


Let me guess Hamas was also firing from the UN compound in Gaza?

Get over it, the world knows Israel lies and attacks indiscriminately as it is there main goal to simply kill as many Palestinians as possible before they are outnumbered.

Just so happens that time they attacked someone with a voice.

I will continue to believe the UN over Israel, as one can not be unbiased when examining their own war methods.

I find it incredibly amusing that all over ats there are threads speaking ill of pretty much every country, the bulk of which is focused on the US. Yet, Israel is supposed to off limits? No, wrong is wrong and if it is Israel that happens to be wrong then so be it own it. But more and more people are beginning to realize that Israel is not always the victim, and it recent years, it seldom is.

reply to post by searching4truth

NO, the world DOESN'T know the Israelis did this, and that the Israelis are liars.

Your personal hatred blinds you so completely that even historical facts can't soak through.

It's one thing to be unknowing.

It's quite another to be willingly unknowing.

Originally posted by FarArcher
reply to post by searching4truth

 

NO, the world DOESN'T know the Israelis did this, and that the Israelis are liars.

Your personal hatred blinds you so completely that even historical facts can't soak through.

It's one thing to be unknowing.

It's quite another to be willingly unknowing.

How wrong you are, I hate no one, but when a country in acting poorly I will not defend them or condone their actions.

You have failed to prove any of your points, if you've even made any, all you've done is say "your wrong" with no factual support to the links and articles I and others have posted.

So, until you are able to support your claim that I am incorrect I'll have to bid you adieu. If I happen to see any proof of your claims I'll come back to you, but I'm done with the childish arguments.

reply to post by searching4truth

You know what? After 60 years of hearing from various Arabs stating publicly that their intent is/was to wipe Israel off the map, make the ground run with Israeli blood, to remove the Israeli infestation from the face of the earth, and then gather multiple coalitions of nations surrounding Israel, attacking them with the purpose of wiping them out, and then resorting to the horrid practice of suicide bombings when they failed to wipe them out - then any rational, sane, prudent, educated, knowing person should know damned good and well what's going on here.

Get a grip. Get an education.

That land was Jordanian. Jordan lost the land to Israel.

And they're crazy as hell if they ever let any of it go.

They already gave the entire Sinai back.

That's enough.

reply to post by FarArcher


I do have an education, part of which was in mid east studies.

If you need some book suggestions, I'd be happy to provide them to you, many were even written by Jews, so don't think that education system is slanted against Israel. Still, you have provided nothing.

I'm sad for you, perhaps one day you will open your eyes wide enough to see past the tip of your nose.

Drop me a u2u if you would like a few text suggestions.

Originally posted by backinblack
Don't bother TELLING me what you DEMAND I reply cause I assure you, you will NOT get me doing as YOU say..
What a rude, uneducated person you are...
Learn how debate works...

Lol. Learn how debate works? In a debate, when you make a claim, you are expected to back up that claim with any source of proof you have got.

Example - I am an alien overlord in charge of planet earth. There is plenty of proof. LOOK FOR IT! Im not going to do it for you. Therefore I am an alien and you must believe me because I don't have to supply any proof.


Heh.. this is not the way debating works, but it sure is the way it works around people who invent stuff up.

You claim something - back it up. Unless you're just another internet troll spewing crap around. So far in this thread I was the only used to provide proves for my claims, and they were all ignored while catbinlady derailed the thread to different subjects.

You guys are the most amateur debaters I have ever witnessed. Honestly.