PRESS RELEASE: What Happened To The 9/11 Firemen?: 85% Take VCF only 15% on SSDI

I must say that for the 1st time ever, I believe the dman is actually making sense! Props to you bro. If the breakdown of lost firemen is actually as spread out as it appears from the info in this thread, then it is very peculiar and deserves explanation. I also don't recognize the significance of (85% take VCF) could someone please explain? But, the argument that many people weren't being evacuated and/or that 343 or 347 firemen being made up out of thin air is pretty laughable. I can show you a crapload of videos of people who came out of those buildings claiming bombs and/or explosions were occuring during their escape, the dman himself has seen those and although we have disagreed in every thread we've ever both been on, even he won't deny their existance.

The only thing Thedman is right about is that there was an awful lot of this "detailing" of firemen on 9/11.

Firemen practice and train together, like sports teams, to create seamless coordination at times when seconds matter. They are not normally assigned willy nilly all over the place.

The simple fact that there was so much re-assignment among the dead is a red flag in itself, rather than a logical explanation.

With over 11,000 firemen in the City, long term assignment is a must not to create an impossible administrative nightmare.

Fact is, many guys, unless promoted, spend whole careers with one firehouse. They were not working for Kelly Girl or Manpower. They were a proud part of "their" company,

A re-assignment here and there would be one thing, but as an explanation as to why 18 Companies lost only one man, I think not.



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reply to post by do2read


Detailing ia a fact of life in a large organization like the FDNY - while FF may spend much of their careers at one location they may be detailed as necessary to fill spots at other units

This may be done at beginning of shift where individual is told to report to different firehouse or on the fireground
as incident commanders may deem necessary.

For example just last night has fire in large garage - at first was told to advance hose with my engine, minute
later chief had me help pump operator of other engine pull supply line and tie into hydrant. After fire knocked
down was sent to our rescue truck to refill air bottles used at fire.

Showed how at Ladder 10 which while 3 men died while on duty with it (out of 6, one was outside (driver), 2 others left building because of medical emergency, of the 3 only one was offically assigned to that unit)

Random chance plays another part - one company lost a man when hit by person jumping from building.

In another case one man survived when his entire comapny was killed

.After reaching the 37th floor, Green and fellow firefighters, were ordered to evacuate. Billy reached West Street just before the North Tower had collapsed and found himself the sole survivor of his company.

Green reveals the chilling thoughts and sounds of a day that continues to plague him. Billy reached West Street just before the North Tower collapsed. He was the only member of his company to escape in time.

Originally posted by thedman

In another case one man survived when his entire comapny was killed

.After reaching the 37th floor, Green and fellow firefighters, were ordered to evacuate. Billy reached West Street just before the North Tower had collapsed and found himself the sole survivor of his company.

Green reveals the chilling thoughts and sounds of a day that continues to plague him. Billy reached West Street just before the North Tower collapsed. He was the only member of his company to escape in time.

Thed ~

It's interesting that you bring this up. When I picked up my brother at the train station in Providence after his time spent as a grif counselor, he told me this story. My brother actually sat with Billy. My brother was used to going to police stations and fire departments to talk to his "brothers" when they would lose one of their own. He always had the words to say that would bring some comfort. He sat in the back of my car almost silent that day for the ride back into Massachusetts to his home. He said, "I can deal with someone losing a fallen brother, but what do you say to a man who is the only one left?" He looked like a ghost to me. He wept with his brothers from NYC and grived with them. He watched them as their uniforms and limbs were pulled from the debris.

Part of my brother died at ground zero. That part of him will never come back.

The OP is nothing short of disgusting. Next to the "sims" posts, this is probably the most vile thread I have ever seen at ATS. I am shocked that the MODS allow such filth.

Originally posted by Six Sigma
The OP is nothing short of disgusting. Next to the "sims" posts, this is probably the most vile thread I have ever seen at ATS. I am shocked that the MODS allow such filth.

I guess Thedman will continue to quote portions of the Official Lie, and call it proof.

He continues to ignore that there were 18 Companies that lost one man. This was not just a couple of "detailing" incidents.

Might as well believe in Hijackers and Osama because the Guvmint told us so.



So, detailing is normal part of everyday life at the FDNY? I guess because you say so. Did you provide some statistics, some research. Did you once work in Human Resources there? No, you just say so. We have brought you detailed breakdowns, based on the FDNY's own Memorial, as well as several other Memorials. It is clear concise, and organized, and statistically correct.

You brought us "because I say so". Perhaps you can show us what percentage actually are on "detailing" on a normal day, out of the 11,000+ firemen. Then perhaps, when you "beg the question" by matter of factly stating that is "part of everyday life", you can be taken seriously.



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im very confused by this thread

i dont believe the OS and never will but what exactly is the OP implying? are you saying that the fire men where IN ON IT?

i think there are alot more important aspects of 9/11 to try and research and analyse in order to accomplish the actual truth of what happene that day

Originally posted by kaya82
im very confused by this thread

i dont believe the OS and never will but what exactly is the OP implying? are you saying that the fire men where IN ON IT?

i think there are alot more important aspects of 9/11 to try and research and analyse in order to accomplish the actual truth of what happene that day

There is a world of difference between someone saying that all of the fireman were "in on it" and that there is strong evidence that many of them were fraudulent victims. Why were roughly 347 - 40 pound heavy rubber coats missing from the debris pile along with all their other equipment? Much like the Pentagon, some equipment was found, giving the appearance that the scene was "salted" much like the Pentagon was with a few scrap of an old AA crash.

Honestly, I think the fact that the losses were so evenly spread out across all the firehouses is a huge red flag, like it or not. They all received an awfully huge pile of cash. Lots to go around in that 45 billion dollar "jackpot."

There are all sorts of very legitimate avenues of investigation regarding the Fireman. It wouldn't be the first time that the truth hid behind false hero's. History is littered with such examples. Literally littered with them.


Cheers-
Phil

Originally posted by Phil Jayhan


There is a world of difference between someone saying that all of the fireman were "in on it" and that there is strong evidence that many of them were fraudulent victims. Why were roughly 347 - 40 pound heavy rubber coats missing from the debris pile along with all their other equipment? Much like the Pentagon, some equipment was found, giving the appearance that the scene was "salted" much like the Pentagon was with a few scrap of an old AA crash.

Phil,

I would like to meet you at Ground Zero at your convenience.We can drive around to each firehouse and discuss with each of them, your suspicions. Will you hide behind your computer, or will you meet me at GZ?

Please U2U me for further details. Dates, times, etc.

reply to post by Phil Jayhan


And he continues to ignore facts. Why am I not surprised?

The OP makes assinine statements like "no coats were recovered" and gullible people just eat it up.....when two minutes of honest research shows he is full of hot air. He cannot even get the number of fireman that died that day right.

Originally posted by kaya82
im very confused by this thread

i dont believe the OS and never will but what exactly is the OP implying? are you saying that the fire men where IN ON IT?

i think there are alot more important aspects of 9/11 to try and research and analyse in order to accomplish the actual truth of what happene that day

That is an excellent question, Kaya.

When we started looking into passengers, we found any irregularities, for instance, there were 48 48 millionaires among roughly 250 passengers. There were a disproportionate number of passengers connected to the Military/Industrial Conglomerates, or the Military itself. There were a high number of people politically connected to the top as well.

Looking at some of the WTC victims showed many of the same patterns.

The main Companies involved at the WTC (who shared 35 Billion in Compensation Funds) all have close ties to the Intelligence Community, and to top members of the 9/11 Omission Commission.


The very basis of 9/11 was for emotional impact, such that in the wake of a river of tears, wars and stolen liberties would be foregone conclusions. The 9/11 firemen are at the very heart of this ruse. We can continue to rehash the same old evidence that has gotten us nowhere for 9 years.

We can keep asking for a "new investigation", so the perps can investigated themselves again and tell us there is nothing to see, again.

Or, we can uncover every instance in which things just don't add up, and this is merely one.

I hope that explains why the firemen are so important.




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reply to post by do2read

So, detailing is normal part of everyday life at the FDNY? I guess because you say so. Did you provide some statistics, some research. Did you once work in Human Resources there? No, you just say so. We have brought you detailed breakdowns, based on the FDNY's own Memorial, as well as several other Memorials. It is clear concise, and organized, and statistically correct.

I know about detailing because of my number of years in the fire service where we back up larger city where it
ia common. In addition know many FDNY members do to proximity to NYC - they live near me.

Many of the deaths recorded in single companies, if you look at list, were battalion chiefs where they were the
only member "officially" posted to the unit. Now chiefs have aides or drivers - most are detailed from other
units, often members on light duty following an injury

For example note Steve Belson of Ladder 24, he was detailed to Battalion 7 chief Orio Palmer

But at the fire station on West 31st Street in Manhattan where he spent most of his career as a firefighter, he was given the title "Mr. Ladder 24."

"He was our ambassador, so to speak," said John Montani, another firefighter in Ladder Company 24. Firefighter Belson attended all the functions, was always available for holiday duty and could back a fire engine into a station in five seconds flat. His last job was as a driver for one of the battalion chiefs, Orio J. Palmer. Both rushed to the World Trade Center on Sept. 11; neither returned.

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by do2read

 

Many of the deaths recorded in single companies, if you look at list, were battalion chiefs where they were the
only member "officially" posted to the unit. Now chiefs have aides or drivers - most are detailed from other
units, often members on light duty following an injury

Maybe you could actually look at the breakdown you requested.

The 18 Companies I mention having lost only one man were Engine and Ladder Only.

18 of them. Not Battallions. Just Engine and Ladder Companies.



You make it sound like the Nation's Proudest Fire Organization was made up of a bunch of temps on 9/11.

Lots and lots and lots of detailing, that's it.







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reply to post by do2read


Have problem with reading comprehension?

Posted that Chiefs are assigned Aides (drivers) to assist them at incidents. Also posted that many of these
aides are members from other units ie, Engine/Ladder companies on light or modified duties

Mentioned Steve Belson from Ladder 24. He was aide to Chief Orio Palmer of Battalion 7 Hisd death is recorded
as from Ladder 24

reply to post by do2read

When we started looking into passengers, we found any irregularities, for instance, there were 48 millionaires among roughly 250 passengers. There were a disproportionate number of passengers connected to the Military/Industrial Conglomerates, or the Military itself. There were a high number of people politically connected to the top as well.

Why is that unusual that rich people fly more than ordinary people?

Reason is clear - many of them are business people with companies to run, investors to meet, deals to be
struck will need to fly to cinduct business

On AA 11 manifest will show

Hollywood producer David Angell from Fraser

Actress Berry Berenson (widow of Anthony "Psycho" Perkins)

FAMILY GUY creator Seth Mcfarlane missed the flight

reply to post by Phil Jayhan

40 pound heavy rubber coats

Did you read my earlier post about FDNY turnout gear? Did you understand it?

Fire department turnout pants/coats/hoods are made of mixture of Nomex and Kevlar threads - FDNY uses
special weave with high degree of Kevlar for extra wear resistance

Gear from FDNY members was recovered from the debris

Middletown — A shredded FDNY bunker coat recovered at Ground Zero five years ago is now in the hands of New York City fire officials.

A department spokesman said efforts will be made to link the garment with its owner. The Fire Department of New York lost 343 members on Sept. 11, 2001. Forty-two percent of the nearly 3,000 people killed in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks have never been identified.

"The fire marshal has possession," the FDNY spokesman said. "It's being investigated."

Battalion Chief Al Fuentes - he was recovered from rubble badly injured, wearing his bunker gear

As the north tower began to come down, he found he was unable to walk through the debris. “I bent down on my knees, put my hands over my head, and started saying the Hail Mary. I guess I lost consciousness. I was buried for two hours,” he says.

Fuentes was rescued by two firefighters who heard his radio crackling under the rubble. “They looked into a hole, saw the yellow reflective stripe on my bunker gear, and were able to dig me out,” he says. “They transported me by fireboat to a triage center on the Jersey shore, where a priest gave me the Last Rites.”

Or could ask Lee Ielpi - spent months searching rubble for his son, Was he one of your fictious firemen?

For nine months, he labored in that hellish pile. He heard people who flocked to the edges of the site call him a hero, even when he posed for their family snapshots.

Ielpi said he's no hero. That honor goes to his son, Jonathan Ielpi, a FDNY firefighter who died trying to evacuate people from the towers.

Three months after the collapse, Ielpi carried a stretcher holding his son's body from the wreckage.

Have problem with reading comprehension?

Don't you mean "Do you have a problem with reading comprehension?"?

Seems it may not be my reading comprehension, but your sentence formation.



I also posted that a couple of examples won't explain the 18 Engine and Ladder Companies that lost only one man.

Was the whole Department driving the Chief to the WTC?

I agree that in a few cases there could be logical explanations, but the numbers are telling us it's far more than that. People here are smart enough to look at those breakdowns for themselves, and see that it just doesn't pass the smell test.

I have painstakingly done the research. It is there for all to see.


In a way, you are making my argument for me, come to think of it. Lets say it turns out that there are a ridiculous number of recent transfers and temporaries, and they make up most of the losses on 9/11. Wouldn't that be something.


Again, 8 Ladders and 10 Engine Companies lost only one man.

Put some reading comprehension into that statement.

I think my sentence formation was correct.






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Or could ask Lee Ielpi - spent months searching rubble for his son, Was he one of your fictious firemen?

Lee Ielpi was one of the few firemen's families that didn't receive money from the Victim's Compensation Fund.

Quite Magnanimous to turn down a payout that averaged 1.9 million each. Such is not the case with the airline passengers, very few of those families took the money. Imagine, in this litigious society that MOST of the families turn down a cool million and a half, automatic settlement. You gotta hand it to those people, they must all belong to some religion with a serious vow of poverty or something.

The only group that DOES participate heavily in the VCF is these firemen. Mr. Ielpi is the exception to the rule.

He is one of only 2% who show up on neither the VCF or the SSDI.



BTW, I think it's fictitious, with my reading comprehension and all I had a hard time understanding "fictious".





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reply to post by Phil Jayhan


Phil,

First off, let me tell you that as you know, the SSDI is inaccurate. Many times, firefighters choose to keep things private. They have a right to do so. For instance, when you search for my property address information, you will not find a name attached. I do that because I choose to keep many things about me private. This can account for alot of the missing information.

Secondly, the radio issues that FDNY had dated well before September 11th, and still continue to this day. This is one of the reasons why a repeater was installed in the lobbies of the TT's. We (Union Firefighters) had been complaining about the poor reception in the towers and elsewhere for years. After the 1993 bombing, there were many questions about the reliability of the radios that FDNY used. They were USELESS in any tall structure. ESPECIALLY a structure like the TT's due to their aluminum skin.

See here query.nytimes.com... for an incident that killed 2 firefighters because of radio problems.

Lastly, how is ANYONE supposed to take you seriously when you cannot even get the amount of firefighters killed on September 11th correct? The correct amount is 343. Hence, my username.

Originally posted by Cassius666
I still dont quite get how many firehouses lost 1-2 members. You would assume that a firehouse operates as a team and enters the building toegether, so you would think there are firehouses which got almost completely wiped, if most of them were in the towers. How do firefighters operate, do they operate in such a way, that only a minority of each firehouse went inside the tower, teaming up with elements of other firehouses, which went into the tower, or does each firehouse operates as a unit and would enter a scene like the WTC as a large unit toegether?

Greetings,

Let me try to shed some light on how the FDNY works.

Most engines have a 3-4 man team. But, not all engine crews will enter a building. For instance, they may do search and rescue, or ventilation, or whatever.

When a crew goes in, most of the time, only the hoseman, and the nozzleman go inside. the driver stays with the truck at all times, and the LT goes to Incident Command.

Ladder companys typically do not enter building buildings. They do exterior work (ventilation, exterior attack, etc)

Some of the information you are reading is inaccurate. 10 House is closest to GZ, and lost 7 members. Engine 54 lost 4 people. You can go here nyfd.com... nd view all the names, and assignments.