PRESS RELEASE: What Happened To The 9/11 Firemen?: 85% Take VCF only 15% on SSDI

The 9/11 Firemen’s Reference Guide
by Larry McWilliams and Phil Jayhan

The 9/11 Firemen have been at the center of the story since day one. They were the men, we are told, that rushed into the towers when everyone else fled. They were the consummate 9/11 heroes. They were the very symbol of American loss on that day.

That is why study of the 9/11 Firemen has remained, for nine long years, a subject taboo to research and even to discussion.

Yet, in the wake of plentiful research proving irregularities among the passengers and even the occupants of the Towers, the mystery of the Firemen remained.

The idea that these subjects were off limits to research and discussion was more than barrier enough to secure their shenanigans from being found out, and to keep them hidden in the dark. It would break all taboos of speaking ill of the dead, and the heroes of 9/11 to ask even the first question. As long as this spell lasted, there would be no questions asked, and no discoveries made, about what happened to the 343 Firemen on 9/11.

Taboos be damned, we had to have answers, so we began to assemble the necessary research to see what answers were available in the data. It didn’t take long for the trends to become crystal clear.

I collected information from all of the major Memorials.

Each Memorial lists 343 Firefighters, the Official number from the FDNY.

However, there are 347 total firefighters and paramedics listed in the various Memorials, no two memorials totally in agreement.

In the following article, I will present data to show that;

1. Very few are listed in the Social Security Death Index (15%)
2. Nearly all received benefits from the Victim’s Compensation Fund(85%)
3. The distribution of the Firemen by Company is significantly different than what would be expected, and
4. The rank distribution is top-heavy.


The Firemen and the SSDI

The Social Security Death Index is the means by which the Social Security Administration keeps track of which issued numbers (persons) need to be removed from the Tax/Benefit rolls. Every death in the United States should be recorded in the SSDI, provided that person was issued a Social Security Number. Only 15% of the 9/11 Firemen are accounted for in the SSDI. This number is so significantly low, that no attempt can be made to explain it. All of the people I know to be dead show up in the SSDI under some form of their name. Yet only 15% of these Firemen can be found there.

Here is the data, broken down alphabetically for organization’s sake.

For the rest of the story, charts, graphs and references, see here:

What Happened to the Fireman? The Missing 347?



Cheers-
Phil Jayhan



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I am completely impressed with your recent threads. I wonder if there is some sort of hush hush deal with the families so they can draw SSI benefits? Just a thought.

< JREF> So what are you saying, the whole Fire Dept was in on it? < /JREF>



(You know it's coming.)

Originally posted by budaruskie
I am completely impressed with your recent threads. I wonder if there is some sort of hush hush deal with the families so they can draw SSI benefits? Just a thought.

No, we make no such claims that the entire FDNY was in on it. We don't know is the proper reply. We are investigating solid leads and analyzing them. This points to a massive deception, yes. But the mechanics of the deception and the finer details we have yet to uncover. What this actually points to is the opposite of what you are pointing to if you think about it. We are looking at this from all angles and investigating other leads as well as waiting another FOIA return.

We have no real way of knowing for certain what the story is for each individual claimant or fireman. But the big red flag that we saw over and over again as we were collating this information on the fireman, the location of their fire houses, and the numbers who died from said firehouses, we noticed something which we never imagined in a million years. We noticed that there was only 1-2 people from each firehouse that died, for the most part, evenly spread across all the fire houses. And the fire houses which were closest, lost the least amount of men, respectively.

Larry just added this story below, it outlines the shame and the deception of the FDNY on 9/11....

9/11 FDNY & The Shame of Ladders 1, 8, and 10:
letsrollforums.com...

What Happened to the Fireman - The Missing 347?

And thank yo very much for the kind words on the research and new discoveries. We have hundreds and hundreds of hours into each aspect of research we have done and appreciate all the feedback we can get as well as any help people might want to contribute in research for an area that is long overdue, the fireman and the victims as well as the corporations which had the most losses at WTC on 911.


Cheers-
Phil

reply to post by Phil Jayhan

The Social Security Death Index is the means by which the Social Security Administration keeps track of which issued numbers (persons) need to be removed from the Tax/Benefit rolls.

As I am sure you've been told two million times, the Social Security Death Index is a privately held and maintained website that has no affiliation with the Social Security Administration.

reply to post by Phil Jayhan


Snip

The fact that several companies escaped either unharmed or with few causalties is not as you contend a
matter of COWDARICE, but a reflection of what their assigments were, what building they were in (there were
2 towers) and often random chance

Units nearest the WTC would have responded on the initial alarms into the North Tower, most would have
gone into that building

Capt Jay Jonas - Ladder 6, one of the units you accuse

So I’m standing at the lobby command post and I’m awaiting my orders. Rescue 1 arrives and the members of Rescue 1 are standing next to me. A good friend of mine, Gerry Nevins, Captain Terry Hatton, Lieutenant Dennis Moyica, Fireman Dave Weiss, they were all around me. Lieutenant Pete Freund from Engine 55; he shows up right around that time. And we’re waiting. Right now, the chiefs are overwhelmed. There’s a lot of things happening. The fire commissioner has Chief Hayden’s ear. Battalion Chief Joe Pfeiffer from the First Battalion is juggling three phones. He’s trying to talk to people on elevators and floor warden phones and things like that. They’re managing it and they’re handling it and I don’t know how they’re doing it, but they did an unbelievable job.

We all just kind of looked at each other, wished each other good luck and gave each other a wink and a nod and then it was my turn. It was my turn to get orders. I went up to Deputy Chief Pete Hayden and I looked at him and said, “You know a second plane just hit the second tower?” He says, “Yeah, I know. Just go upstairs and do the best you can.”

When South Tower was hit 15 minutes later, some units were shifted over from the North tower staging area,
units arriving later would have have been detailed toward the South Tower. Even then communication problems
and confusion resulted in 3 companies reporting to the North Tower instead of South. They escaped the
collapse of South Tower

Drivers (Chauffers in FDNY speak) would mostly have remained outside the buildings with their apparatus, ready
to move it , operate the pumps (engine companies) or raise ladders (truck companies)

This is how Kevin Shea of Ladder 35 escaped - he was outside the South Tower attempting to extinguish a
burning vehicle with an extinguisher when building collapsed. He was blown dozens of yards and severely
injured by the air blast from the collapse. Was only one of 12 men from Engine 40/Ladder 35 to survive - all
rest died in building.

Crew from Ladder 15 also died in South Tower - were responding to Chief Orio Palmer on the 78th floor. Palmer
has found working freight elevator to the 41 st floor cutting distance to climb in half. . Ladder 15 had just reached
impact floor when building came down.

Many of the dead were not even in the Towers - estimated 40 men died at Marriott Hotel (WTC 3) including
crew from Ladder 11 - these men were searching hotel and assisting people evacuating towers out the back of
the Marriott.

Even before South Tower collapsed units in North tower told to evacuate by Chief Joseph Callan who was
concerned about structural stability of buildings. When South Tower collapsed units in North tower were in process of leaving building.

Many units did not hear the evacuation order to leave beacuse of radio problems

Some refused to leave injured behind .......

I’m seeing and hearing other acts of courage and heroism on the way down. I’m hearing Captain Paddy Brown from Ladder 3 saying that he has a lot of burned people on the 40th floor and he doesn’t want to leave them.

Capt Jonas again

That was a difficult piece of information to process. In my entire fire service career, I can’t ever remember a highrise building ever collapsing. And this was one of the biggest ones in the world, a 110-story building coming down.

I said, “I can’t believe it.” I thought about it for a second and I looked at my guys and I said, “OK, it’s time for us to go home. It’s time for us to leave.”

At first, they were a little reluctant. I said, “We’re going home. If that tower can go, this one can go. It’s time for us to get out of here.”

So we start our evacuation with Billy Burke and Andy Fredericks in tow. We start heading down the stairs. One of my firemen had a lifesaving rope with him and he wanted to start jettisoning some of his equipment. I said, “No, bring everything. You never know what we’re going to come aKross on our way down. Bring everything with us.”

We start heading down. I was a little nervous about doing that because I didn’t get a radio order to do it and that was hard territory to get up to. I didn’t want to take the same territory twice.

Around the 20th floor I heard on the radio an order for everybody to evacuate the north tower. And I’ve seen on the videotapes that they had ordered the evacuation of my building before the south tower collapsed, but we didn’t get it. Sometimes in highrise buildings with the steel and the concrete and the distance, communications are not good.

Somewhere around the 15th floor, I ran into a friend of mine, Rich Picciotto, who was battalion chief in the 11th Battalion. He and I studied together for years, but we rarely worked together. As a matter of fact, I don’t think we’ve ever worked together because he works in the Upper West Side, I work in Chinatown and it would have to be something this big for that many units in Manhattan to converge on one spot.

He was wielding a bullhorn, which nobody ever brings a bullhorn into a fire. But he was working at the World Trade Center bombing in 1993. He was a newly promoted battalion chief back then and he remembered he had a big crowdcontrol problem and he remember to bring it. He says, “Well, this might help.”

He used that bullhorn to order firemen to leave the building. That act alone probably saved a lot of firemen’s lives. He probably was able to evacuate, at least that I know of, at least a half a dozen companies. That was a very headsup move on his part.

.

Even then was game of inches who survived or died - when North Tower collapsed Ladder 6 was trapped in
stairway for several hours - they survived. Those just above or below them did not...

Witness fate of Ladder 5

I run into members of Ladder Company 5 from Greenwich Village. There’s a Lieutenant Mike Warchola, who I used to carpool with when I was a young fireman. He and his company are working on a man on one of the stairway landings who’s having chest pains, a civilian.

I said, “Mike, c’mon, let’s go. It’s time to go.”

And he sees we have this woman that we’re bringing down.

He says, “I know, Jay. It’s time to go. We’re working on this guy. You have your civilian, I have mine. We’ll be right behind you.”

couple minutes after the collapse stopped, we’re starting to get radio transmissions. The first one I hear was from a fireman and he says, “Just tell my wife and kids that I love them.” The second radio transmission I hear is from Lieutenant Mike Warchola from Ladder 5, who I passed in the stairway. He said, “Mayday. Mayday. Mayday. This is the officer of Ladder Company 5. I’m in the B stairway on the 12th floor. I’m trapped and I’m hurt bad.”

A second Mayday comes in from Mike Warchola. And then a third. And I realize I can’t move it. There’s nothing I can do and I got on the radio and I said, “I’m sorry, Mike, I can’t help you.”

That was a difficult thing for me to say, especially since I knew him. There was just nothing that I could do for him. And it wasn’t until after I got out that I found out that the 12th floor didn’t exist anymore.

We were getting other Mayday messages in. We were getting a Mayday message from Chief Prunty, Richard Prunty from the 2nd Battalion, and he was trapped right around the lobby. He was pinned and he was hurt bad. And every time we spoke to him, we could hear him going deeper and deeper into shock. There was nothing we could do for him.

My tillerman, Matt Kamorowski, was at the bottom of the stairs. We start making our way down and he yells up, “Don’t come down. There is no way out. There is no way you can get past this.” He got down to the landing between the first and the second floor and he says, “That’s it. It’s packed with debris. There’s no way we can get out.” I said, “All right.”

Another thing - you do realize that the FDNY operates on two shifts? A day tour from 9AM to 6PM, A Night
Tour from 6PM to 9AM following morning.

As the incident happened at 9AM there were both shifts in the firehouse, the on duty tour and the relief tour

Many units responded with both tours doubling number of men and consequent causalties sufferered

Your conspiracy drivel is not only dead wrong on all counts, but is extremely offensive to members of the fire services....







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reply to post by Phil Jayhan


Phil,

What have research have you done regarding the SSDI? As noted above, and countless other threads here at ATS; this index does not confirm if a person is ALIVE. Only that they are dead. Understand?

Let's look at a few of Delta Air Lines Flight 191 passengers that crashed back in 1985:

Kathy Christy Ford - Died after being in a coma for 10 years. Not on the list
Jean Hancock - Sister of musician Herbie Hancock died. Not on the list
Philip Estridge - the father of the IBM PC died. Not on the list

Those are the first 3 names I picked and NONE of them are on the list.

reply to post by Six Sigma



Six,,

Yes, I understand completely. But there's many other factors here to consider. First off, the SSDI boasts an approximate 85% accuracy rating for people who have been dead for 1 year. Regardless of which index I tap into the SSDI, I am still searching their database.

While this does not prove anyone is alive, it does indicate at the very least that many of them were frauds and fake victims. Another thing to take into account is that the social security administration sent special liasons to the 3 disaster sites to facilitate an accurate and speedy indexing of the alleged victims.

The normal accuracy rating of the SSDI is 85% cross the board. Here on 911 it is 15%, and this with special case workers to move the cases along accurately and quickly. That is a re flag and worthy of mre investigation.

Hop that helps six-

Cheers-
Phil

Originally posted by Phil Jayhan

Originally posted by budaruskie
I am completely impressed with your recent threads. I wonder if there is some sort of hush hush deal with the families so they can draw SSI benefits? Just a thought.

No, we make no such claims that the entire FDNY was in on it. We don't know is the proper reply. We are investigating solid leads and analyzing them. This points to a massive deception, yes. But the mechanics of the deception and the finer details we have yet to uncover. What this actually points to is the opposite of what you are pointing to if you think about it. We are looking at this from all angles and investigating other leads as well as waiting another FOIA return.

We have no real way of knowing for certain what the story is for each individual claimant or fireman. But the big red flag that we saw over and over again as we were collating this information on the fireman, the location of their fire houses, and the numbers who died from said firehouses, we noticed something which we never imagined in a million years. We noticed that there was only 1-2 people from each firehouse that died, for the most part, evenly spread across all the fire houses. And the fire houses which were closest, lost the least amount of men, respectively.

Larry just added this story below, it outlines the shame and the deception of the FDNY on 9/11....

9/11 FDNY & The Shame of Ladders 1, 8, and 10:
letsrollforums.com...

What Happened to the Fireman - The Missing 347?

And thank yo very much for the kind words on the research and new discoveries. We have hundreds and hundreds of hours into each aspect of research we have done and appreciate all the feedback we can get as well as any help people might want to contribute in research for an area that is long overdue, the fireman and the victims as well as the corporations which had the most losses at WTC on 911.


Cheers-
Phil

edit on 15-1-2011 by Phil Jayhan because: typo

How would that be possible for only 1-2 firemen from each firehouse to die? That would mean Each firehouse splits responsibilities, with some being on the ground, some manning the firetruck and a few going in, rather than than most of a firehouse going in when there is a need. Is that how they operate? I was under the impression, when you see 6 Fiermen going in they are from the same firehouse, ruther then the "runner ups" of different firehoses who team up.

reply to post by Cassius666


Casius,'

Yes, your quite correct. The story that 347 fireman died is one that rings through all hearts and ears. You hear the story, the tragedy, and your heart just feels a lump. Until you find an inconvenient fact that shows it might have all been a lie. Yes, the fact that each firehouse shared so equally in a proletariat manner shows some sort of deception at the very least. The story starts to fall apart when one sees these numbers and the charts that larry made showing the locations of the firehouses and their respective death numbers.

The story also starts to lose steam when one realizes that we were told that, for the most part, that 347 fireman went into the buildings, and never came out nor were to be seen again. Not even in death. Their bodies ere turned to dust we were told, much like Lots wife turned to a pillar of salt, these 3000 people all were pulverized and turned into a fine white gray powder. Blah blah blah

Not even their coats or boots or hats or radios were to be seen again. It's almost like they never existed. But not totally like they never existed, because 85% of the time there was someone at the other end to gladly take a 2 million dollar payoff, even though only 15% of them ended up on the SSDI.

9/11 FDNY & The Shame of Ladders 1, 8, and 10
letsrollforums.com...

What Happened To The 9/11 Firemen? The "Missing 347 FDNY?"
letsrollforums.com...


And then we move along to the radio issues at FDNY on 9/11. Well, let me just say straight up on this one that it is impossible to fake radio communications with 347 people, and since all their radios are on the public airwaves, that's what they would have had to do, fake the entire days calls for 347 fireman. Now thats simply impossible. A few cell phone calls from airplanes? Not a problem.

This is why the FDNY has "radio issues" that day where their radios allegedly didn't work. This is the ruse they used to help pull their operation off in this regard. What's easier, to fake radio calls between 347 fireman, r to claim the radio system which had always worked before 911, failed tragically?



Hope this helps!

Cheers-
Phil

Well, first off, the FDNY lost 343 members on 9/11. Not sure where you get the 347 at, but after doing some looking around your site, it does reinforce the idea of some rather sloppy research on your part. Second, not sure where you get the idea that the SSDI is even 85% accurate...but its not. A few years ago, a poster on here went through a whole list of deceased persons and not one of them were on that. Of course, it could be pointed out that if your survivors make a claim with SS, then it is highly likely that your name will be there...and if they dont, because, oh, I dont know, the government compensation fund pays a claim to them that would ensure they wouldnt need to worry about SS survivor benefits..............................

reply to post by vipertech0596



This is where your simply wrong. whether or not a person ends up on the SSDI has nothing to do wit the people or any efforts they do or do not make. It is completely independent of them. And the SSDI is the one who makes the claim of 85%, not me. It is somewhere on their website. I think it is actually 86% from memory. Whish also shows you don't know how the SSDI works at all while you belch out seeming wisdom.

FAIL! People are placed into the SSDI through processes with their death certificates, apart from anything the family does or doesn't do. And in the case of 9/11, the SSA sent out special caseworker teams to each respective disaster scene to expedite the process as well as make sure it was accurately done.

Thus it should have actually had a higher then 85% accuracy rating. But has only a 15% accuracy rating. I'm not sure where you guys come from who feel obligated into believing the official story about the government and every other thing they say as though they are your gods and this is your religion, but it is not to you I really make these appeals, because all critical thought was gone with you a long time ago, if it ever existed to begin with.

WTC FOIA Occupancy 1972 -2001


Cheers-
Phil

reply to post by Phil Jayhan


Actually I did make a small error in my post. And you proceeded to follow it up by showing how you failed miserably.

Number four on the list of reasons why someone would not show up on SSDI

Survivor death benefits were (are) being paid to dependents or spouse.

Which was my mistake, I thought that the payout from the Comp fund would negate SS survivor benefits and one's inclusion on the list. However, the case is if your survivors ARE being paid SS benefits, then your name just might not be on the SSDI.

I still dont quite get how many firehouses lost 1-2 members. You would assume that a firehouse operates as a team and enters the building toegether, so you would think there are firehouses which got almost completely wiped, if most of them were in the towers. How do firefighters operate, do they operate in such a way, that only a minority of each firehouse went inside the tower, teaming up with elements of other firehouses, which went into the tower, or does each firehouse operates as a unit and would enter a scene like the WTC as a large unit toegether?

reply to post by Cassius666



Cassius,

It doesn't happen that way. Nor could it even happen that way because of what you mentioned as well as other factors. We were never supposed to look behind the curtain. Pay no attention to those hero's behind the curtain, the victims. It was designed that way. And nobody did or a long time. It was taboo to investigate the victims. And now we find that the truth was hiding behind those victims, using them as cover.

The Firemans Reference Guide

The 9/11 Firemen have been at the center of the story since day one. They were the men, we are told, that rushed into the towers when everyone else fled. They were the consummate 9/11 heroes. They were the very symbol of American loss on that day.

That is why study of the 9/11 Firemen has remained, for nine long years, a subject taboo to research and even to discussion.

Yet, in the wake of plentiful research proving irregularities among the passengers and even the occupants of the Towers, the mystery of the Firemen remained.

The idea that these subjects were off limits to research and discussion was more than barrier enough to secure their shenanigans from being found out, and to keep them hidden in the dark. It would break all taboos of speaking ill of the dead, and the heroes of 9/11 to ask even the first question. As long as this spell lasted, there would be no questions asked, and no discoveries made, about what happened to the 343 Firemen on 9/11.

Taboos be damned, we had to have answers, so we began to assemble the necessary research to see what answers were available in the data. It didn’t take long for the trends to become crystal clear.

We were never supposed to investigate these fireman or any other victims. We were all supposed to argue about bombs and missiles for the next 50 years. The truth we are fining out now, is this was a hoax. It is impossible to have 347 Fireman perish on 911 and have the numbers spread fairly evenly over every fire house. It's ridiculous. And nobody saw it until we did pay attention to that man behind the curtain. And we investigated the fireman and the claims made; And are finding now they were lies.

I am certain some person, claiming to be the brainiac of left field and beyond will get on and try to convince everyone here that there is a way for the 347 fireman to be evenly spread across all firehouses. But I don't think anyone here is really stupid enough to fall for that tripe.

There is a way that all 347 fireman can be evenly spread across all firehouses; The Fireman were used as part of an elaborate hoax.

FDNY and the Shame of Ladders 1, 8, 9, 10

The Shame of Ladders 1, 8, and 10. by Phil Jayhan and Larry McWilliams

The firehouse containing the proud men of NYFD Ladder 10 sat in the great shadows of the World Trade Center. It was literally across the street. It cannot be argued that it would necessarily have the shortest response time to an event at either Tower.

Yet on 9/11, only one of these proud men lost his life in the "collapse" of the towers across the street.

Ladder 1's Firehouse was third closest, a half mile away. Ladder 1 lost not a single man on 9/11.

Ladder 8 is less than a mile away, and is the next closest, and the last of four that are within a mile of the event. Ladder 8 also lost only one man on 9/11.

Cheers-
Phil

reply to post by Phil Jayhan


It is certainly an unpalatable topic!

I do not like you calling shame on the closest teams without proof beyond your quotes of loss of life.

Is it entirely possible that these closest and therefore 'first responders' had infact been in made rescues and got out again whilst other teams arrived to reinforce? From the time of impact to collapse it sounds utterly plausible to me?

I do not know the truth either,

Also as North hit first and collapsed second after 1hour 45 minutes from impact, I think it is entirely possible the first responders were mostly in the north tower and crucially either already out or had the benefit of notice thus escaping heavier casualties. When the South went down 30 mins before north all the firefighters told to stay out of the north is my understanding of it. If these guys were in the north at 8.50am minutes after impact they could well have been out by the time the south went down and stopped from re-entering?

Cheers

oh and from wiki:

12:01 (approx.): Fourteen people, including twelve firefighters, who were in a section of a stairwell in the North Tower that held together during the collapse, climb the stairs to the top of the Ground Zero rubble field.

any of your tower 1 men?

reply to post by spacedonk


The entire affair is shameful, in my opinion. And I am not using the word for inflammatory purposes. These numbers and statistics that we have researched and discovered aren't lying. They are an indicator of deception, and of a story which certainly in light of this, at bare minimum, now deserves more scrutiny.

How is it possible for these 347 fireman to have been evenly spread out among most fire houses? I'll be straight up here, there isn't any way this is possible unless something about their story is terribly wrong and a deception. And what they are hiding behind is peoples reactions like this; Don't ever speak ill of the dead.." "These are New Yorks finest..." yada yada yada,.... Hero's! And then browbeat anyone who critically examines their story.

But if their story is true, then they have nothing to fear, it will bear out true, over and over again till the sun stops shining. But if their story is false, it will not bear up under scrutiny or close examination. Which is exactly what we are finding with the "347"

There are 347 not 343. One must add up all the official memorials, and you will see there are 347.

Now the most implausible part of their story. That these 347 went into these towers, and poof, vanished. None of their bones, flesh, 60 pound boots 50 pound rubber coats, hats, radios, air tanks surviving. They just disappeared and turned into dust. Not even to be found in the debris pile. That's what the fireman told us. That's their testimony. And in my opinion it is shameful.

One of the big keys here is their radio malfunctions; Ever wonder why those motorola radios didn't work on 9/11? The reason is simple, because they couldn't fake 347 fireman's radio calls which were never going to happen, so they simply told us the radios broke. Simple enough solution.


I am going to go find the youtubes of the fireman schilling for the official BS story by telling us, 5 of them, telling all 3000 people turned to dust. It's hilarious. Because that's delusional as well, to think that the entire contents of the world trade center, some 13,200 tons of combustable material. and all of the people turn to dust. The fact that these 5 fireman are on a documentary telling everything and everyone turned to dust is a red flag. And their acting isn't all that great, but it got through at the time when everyone was not thinking critically.


Cheers-
Phil

Originally posted by Phil Jayhan
reply to post by spacedonk

 

The entire affair is shameful, in my opinion. And... now deserves more scrutiny.

And what they are hiding behind is peoples reactions like this; Don't ever speak ill of the dead.." "These are New Yorks finest..." yada yada yada,.... Hero's! And then browbeat anyone who critically examines their story.

But if their story is true, then they have nothing to fear, it will bear out true, over and over again till the sun stops shining. But if their story is false, it will not bear up under scrutiny or close examination.

edit on 15-1-2011 by Phil Jayhan because: typo

I have no problem with critical examination of the topic and I am cynical enough to take individual accounts of stories with a pinch of salt. I don't even subscribe to the school of thought that says cover ups can't be conducted when large numbers of people are involved.

I will say however I find your tone touching on zealousness and wonder whether this is influenced by a sense of outrage due to the facts you believe you have uncovered or something else (this is not meant mischievously, I really have found your postings full of zeal)? I am all for dispassionate examination of facts and their presentation in such a manner. 9/11 prompts such deepseated feelings of hurt in people that tact must be used when making what from two sides are either entirely reasonable arguments/ outrageous lies and invective.

I am not somebody that has come down on either side of the truther/truster argument and have read many articles, threads and accounts of 9/11 with strong cases made on both sides. I saw live TV pictures of the aftermath of plane 1 and plane 2's impact. Then watched CNN all day (overseas not in US). I know this is too far removed from the reality to be sure what I was watching was not manipulated by interested parties etc etc but it has left an indelible feeling of the chaos with citizens and Emergency Services being fragmented, disbelief from the eyewitnesses at the event it was pure horror. Whether it be an inside or outside job this was an UNPRECEDENTED event and people reacted as such.

However the entire scene looked absolutely hideously fragmented from an emergency services point of view on the ground and from a chain of command standpoint. The radio argument on its own is not enough, again to my mind it is entirely possible that radios on the 80th floor were not receiving signal or were not heard which I think more likely - remember it was utterly utterly chaotic. I do not know the set up of the New York FD but can imagine that ladders, teams and people became fragmented too. It is entirely possible and reasonable in my mind that different ladders worked with different ladders as need presented itself. I can see entirely how one or two men could be diverted from their team to assist another, I can see how men could be left to look for other survivors or injured parties whilst their teammates took casualties to lower floors. In short I can see entirely how it would be feasible for ladders to lose one or two men only and also can see how it would be feasible for entire ladders to be decimated.

As you have researched this I am sure you could readily provide a list per ladder of numbers lost? I for one would appreciate sight of such figures. Unfortunately as a neutral it is not enough for me to take your words as fact - which is no reflection on you in particular just something that I would need to see in black and white. As I have said though it is ENTIRELY possible for me to understand having seen television pictures of the absolute chaos that day how individual men could become separated and lost in the collapse.

The timeline issue for me is something perhaps I added to my post via edit before you had a chance to see it, but the first responders to me would seem in all likelihood less likely to have been in the towers when they collapsed than those further afield because they would have attended the North Tower first. In my minds eye. I can see myself in that situation and feel that One hour would have been time enough to retrieve injured people/ help those evacuating and get them down and outside. This could easily have coincided with the collapse of the South tower and the order to not re-enter the North tower. For me statistically in this incidence first responders were more likely to be safe than the further afield teams that arrived later due to the need to travel to the site of the incident. what say you to this timeline specifically in respect of the first responders?

My final point to you is regarding the SSDI - again my ignorance may well be displayed here too as I had not heard of such a thing until you started your previous threads in respect of passengers of the airliners. My question to you really is simple: Is this your only source for questioning whether the alleged dead are really dead? If so how do you go about corroborating the statistical finding? Irrespective of your conviction of the robustness of the data, it is imperative in my mind that you find a way to develop further evidence to support your argument.

Now as I said I do not know the truth as much as the next cannot know for sure but they can believe whatever they wish as far as I am concerned, but when you present your thoughts on a public forum it is to be hoped you will back them up - so I sincerely hope you can post the information I requested above as it will aid the conversation.

Spoken as neither a truther nor a truster.

peace.