Hey China, why are you so worked up about an Independant Taiwan

Originally posted by chinalurker
As for "foreigners" (mainly westerners) who have never set foot in China, nor done research about the background and issues, nor talked with informed representatives from both sides of the situation, don't expect to understand how chinese people feel regarding this matter

How you feel about Taiwan is totaly irrelevant to Taiwanese independance. You have a people that want no part of an oppressive ssytem of government and choose to persue anotehr way of life. Regardless of how upset people in mainland China feel about Taiwan becomming independent, it does not justify use of force to conquer the island. Zcheng has expressed in this and many other threads a willingness to burn Taiwan down to the bedrock if that is what it takes to achieve unification. With Chinas actions in Hong Kong, the Taiwanese are becoming less and less interested in this possibility. THe recent burial of Chiang Kai-shek in taiwan after waiting 30 years to return to the mainland is a symbol of this.
A recent poster earlier in htis thread gave a very good synopsis of the history of Taiwan and why China does not really have a claim to it. Its funny that none of the "Taiwan by force" crowd has commented on it. Take a look back and share with us what you think of it.

So let's get down to baby perspective then.

Suppose I have a lot of LEGO. I invite you to come and play with me to have fun and enjoy together. For some "beep" reason you go unhappy about the deal as you don't have as many lego pieces as I do, so you grab a bunch and run away to some island where I can't grab your little butt and smash the balls off ya.

Now you're sitting there smirking on your little island and building your own stuff with my LEGO, and some other big ugly "beep" piece of "beep" comes to your defence and say: If you take the LEGO from my buddy, I'm gonna smash you blue and yellow, cause he's with me and nobody steals from my buddies, end of discussion.

Well, there you go.

To Chinese people, Taiwan Belongs to China. Life didn't start just 50 years ago ya know. Even though America may lack history and understanding in this issue, try at least to change perspective before you bark.

Yeah. But imagine the guy you ran away from in the first place was using his Lego to build torture chambers.
Now imagine that you took the Lego and, instead of a torture chamber, built a comfortable house with it.

Would you swap?

Originally posted by chinalurker
So let's get down to baby perspective then.

Okay lets. Perhaps you can explain the Baby in the gutter here (Which I want to point out you and Zcheng have ignored in the posts despite numerous requests for comments) . I wonder what her perspective of your government and attitudes are?
www.taliacarner.com...

Suppose I have a lot of LEGO. I invite you to come and play with me to have fun and enjoy together. For some "beep" reason you go unhappy about the deal as you don't have as many lego pieces as I do, so you grab a bunch and run away to some island .

Lego's eh. Okay. Lets say you got all your legos by taking over my playground and spread an ideology that essentially eliminates personal freedoms, lets say you as leader use an event lets call it the "cultural revolution" or "Mao's Turkey Shoot" and ooops kill off anout 30,000,000 people. Lets say you continue to make threats, continue to torture and jail anyone who opposes your controll of the Legos. As time goes on you take over another playground "Hong Kong" and say "One China" "Two systems" and claim that the rules of the playground you took over will be respected. Then you change your mind and make them as repressive as the mainland. Do you really belive that would entice me back to your utopia?

Once again I ask you to comment on the post that Muaddib made on the true history of Taiwan. It kind of throws a monkey wrech into your historical perspective of Taiwan
sted on 11-7-2004 at 01:00 Post Number: 655080 (post id: 675774)

Originally posted by zcheng
FredT, you are so funny to have so much confidence in US force.
Everyday, I see US soldier died in vain in Iraq and Afganistan, and they are using only AK-47 and RPGs.

US now has to scrap the very bottom to get about 5000 more reluctant soldiers. And you still want war with China

. I know in your eyes, China do not even have AK-47 and RPGs. Luckily, even Bush is smarter than you. There is no point for argument. Let's wait and see.

U.S. is suffering casualties because the government is too kind to try to not kill indiscriminately. US could have neutron-bombed the Sunni Triangle and solve a lot of the problems, but we don't want to kill innocent civilians as much as we can help it.

Tell me what other superpower in human history has ever been this humane? I came to respect America a lot more after studying its history and world history in general.

Perhaps one thing should be made clear:
The Taiwanese people don't hate China as a civilization, they hate the government that's in power right now. They hate how the Chinese people have become under that government and the Communist philosophy. If China were a true democracy with real freedom and Chinese people follow the rule of law and the very basic morals, most of them would want to be part of that country.

I read about how some baby formula in China is so bad that babies die, or someone put rat poison in their competitor's soy milk just to ruin their business. Nowadays I avoid buying any food from China because of it.

GHuang

Originally posted by GHuang
If China were a true democracy with real freedom and Chinese people follow the rule of law and the very basic morals, most of them would want to be part of that country.

You seem to enjoy the democrazy of Taiwan in latest election. As some one said, it is the biggest joke around the world, maybe also this century.



[edit on 12-7-2004 by zcheng]

Imagine the Hawaiian economy without 1/2 of the US tourists that visit it now and US Navy is not based in Oahu. That would chill most of the Hawaiians' desire to be independent. There's no real benefit in doing so, and so why do it?

There is some economic benefit for Taiwan to join China, but it would lose the freedom and democracy it enjoys. For most Taiwanese, the economic gains are trivial compared to freedom and democracy. They're not stupid, you know?!

Rhode Island was debating about signing on the US Constitution and was actually leaning against it, until they heard that the other 12 states were drafting a bill to impose tariffs against Rhode Island because it would be a "foreign state." That would have ruined R.I. and they realized that. Puerto Rico could declare independence, but it wants to be part of the US because the benefits are far greater.

Why wouldn't China change so the Taiwanese want to join it? Being nicer to Taiwan for once is a good start.

I didn't beat up my girlfriend to win her heart. Got it?

GHuang

Originally posted by GHuang
Imagine the Hawaiian economy without 1/2 of the US tourists that visit it now and US Navy is not based in Oahu. That would chill most of the Hawaiians' desire to be independent. There's no real benefit in doing so, and so why do it?

What about those from China etc? Without restriction many Chinese will visit Hawaii.

Yeah right.
It costs a fortune to eat, drink or sleep in Hawaii. You reckon your average Chinese is going to be able to afford that?

Originally posted by FredT
How you feel about Taiwan is totaly irrelevant to Taiwanese independance. You have a people that want no part of an oppressive ssytem of government and choose to persue anotehr way of life.

You are completely wrong. That is the only thing matters, as it will determine whether Taiwan can gain independence without War. The fact the matter is 1.3 Billion Chinese people view Taiwan as a alienable province of China. Even if Unification fail this time, the next generation will continue the cause until Taiwan is back to China.

Originally posted by GHuang
Imagine the Hawaiian economy without 1/2 of the US tourists that visit it now and US Navy is not based in Oahu. That would chill most of the Hawaiians' desire to be independent. There's no real benefit in doing so, and so why do it?

We actually have a few native Hawaiian nurses at work and we held a discussion about this very topic. The concensus was that the poulation woul dhave to be waaaay smaller. If the tourism dried up they would drop even further. You would almost have to regress at least 100 years or so. They are 100% dependant on petroleum imports. Without any basic industries they simply could not support such a big population

And Zcheng as if your government would let you out in sig numbers. Maybe because you are so dilligent reading out of your propaganda manual they might treat you. But once you have tasted freedom would you go back?

Originally posted by Leveller
Yeah right.
It costs a fortune to eat, drink or sleep in Hawaii. You reckon your average Chinese is going to be able to afford that?

If Hawaii gains independence, US will crumble. What about 0.1% of Chinese people can afford visiting Hawaii. Can you count how many?

Chinese people mostly travel to South East Asia, and Europe these days.

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by Leveller
If Hawaii gains independence, US will crumble. What about 0.1% of Chinese people can afford visiting Hawaii. Can you count how many?

Explain how the US will crumble......

Originally posted by FredT
Explain how the US will crumble......

I think it has began long ago.

Just see when ballooning national debt and personal debt can not sustain itself.

With the tax cut for the rich, there is no way to make up for the deficit.

The housing market will soon pop, when the interest goes up again and again. Keep close eye to Fanie May and Fredie Mac.

Iraq War and Afganistan war will drain the remaining blood and treasure.
It is whether US will crumble, but when.

I believe US will be seriously weaken in 5 years, if Bush stays in power. In 15 years, US will no more be the sole superpower, very like EU will take the position of US, and Euro take the position of Dollar.

Let's just wait and see.

You really do write some rubbish.
The US housing market is only now beginning to thrive when compared to Europe or other Western countries - property there is way cheaper. It's a relatively new market and hardly likely to "pop" for decades.

China may have a growing economy but it is very fragile at the moment and depends massively on Western investment. The whole world would be screwed if the US economy went under - ever heard of global recession? China has no experience of modern capitalism. In all probability, she will undergo the same boom and bust that the Tiger Economies suffered in the 90s.

As for the US falling apart if Hawaii were to succede? Well, firstly it is a doubtful scenario. Secondly there is no reason why the US wouldn'tr survive the loss of an offshore state. About the only industry in Hawaii is tourism - it's not a major contributer to the US economy.

Yet again, you show absolutely no understanding whatsoever of economics or a knowledge of the subject being discussed.

Originally posted by zcheng
The fact the matter is 1.3 Billion Chinese people view Taiwan as a alienable province of China. Even if Unification fail this time, the next generation will continue the cause until Taiwan is back to China.

The failure of your communist system is that you don't give the 23 million who live on Taiwan the choice.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
The failure of your communist system is that you don't give the 23 million who live on Taiwan the choice.

Do you think US will let go any state, if they so choose? For example Hawaii, CA, or Texas? Do you read the thread discuss this particular issue?

Why US have the Civil war? Why the South was not given their right to be independent?

Originally posted by Leveller
You really do write some rubbish.
The US housing market is only now beginning to thrive when compared to Europe or other Western countries - property there is way cheaper. It's a relatively new market and hardly likely to "pop" for decades.

There is no need for argument on this topic. The interest rate will continue to rise.

Let's just wait and see for no more than 5 years.

China may have a growing economy but it is very fragile at the moment and depends massively on Western investment. The whole world would be screwed if the US economy went under - ever heard of global recession? China has no experience of modern capitalism. In all probability, she will undergo the same boom and bust that the Tiger Economies suffered in the 90s.

That is your perception. Do you see how quick China get back to feet right after the standstill because of SARS? Now what about the robust and growing US economy? LOL.

By the way, the Tigers know who is the culprit of their crash. That is one main reason they now seek close integration with Chinese economy.

As for the US falling apart if Hawaii were to succede? Well, firstly it is a doubtful scenario. Secondly there is no reason why the US wouldn'tr survive the loss of an offshore state. About the only industry in Hawaii is tourism - it's not a major contributer to the US economy.

Tell me, how many Hawaiian people succeed in Hawaii? Most land are controlled by not natives. Just ask the native, how they feel.

If Hawaii is independent, the native will gain back their land, and flourish with tourist from around the world.

Yet again, you show absolutely no understanding whatsoever of economics or a knowledge of the subject being discussed.

I find that describes you perfectly as well.

Heh, some people in the south still think it should have been allowed to succeed. I can't answer that and I wasn't there. We're talking about now.

As far as a state succeeding, why would they? There would be no benefit to it. I expect Northern California might want to succeed from Southern Cali, but they would still be states.

I often wondered if Lincoln could get the Northern states to fight a war if the Southern militants didn't attack Federal (that is, the U.S. Federal Government) facilities located in the South... Could there had been a political solution to this?

President Jackson avoided the war in the 1840s, but he could not resolve the slavery issue. Would slavery be abolished in the 1860s without a Civil War? Was the abolition of slavery a worthy cause for a nation to fight a civil war, even though slavery was NOT the main issue that led to war?

Any historians willing to shed some light on this?

GHuang

* By the way, Taiwan's election is not a joke. They're resolving their differences through legal channels. People have the right to protest and no one got killed. Could you vote in China? Could you protest in China without being killed or arrested indefinitely? Taiwanese love their freedom more than the Mainlanders can understand because the Mainlanders have never tasted freedom before. And yes, many Taiwanese are willing to die for that free lifestyle.