Pledge of Allegiance BANNED!

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands. One Nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

That is how every one in my class and I, recited it every morning at school.
I have also sworn an oath, to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

To this day, even though years later, those words are unwavering and steadfast.

United We Stand, The Rest Is, Not An Option!

Originally posted by Honor93
when parents believe it is someELSEs job to teach, our children are doomed.

Cannot agree more.
All the best neurosurgeons are homeschooled.

reply to post by tetsuo


Some were Christians, some were Christian make-up-your-own-sect, Some were atheists, some were a little of all three. You cannot say they were anything. At least not all of them. They were diverse intellectuals. Now I would say that Thomas Jefferson would probably be the biggest opponent to "under God", but I do think that a good number would in fact support it, probably George Washington. Maybe Thomas Payne, but not likely. Most would beg to question why it matters?


The point is this. The pledge is a pledge of allegiance to what America is. America is suppose to be a republic, but has become a democracy. More accurately, a democratic republic. Ergo, the popular idea is what you pledge to. When the day comes, and it likely will come, and it will likely go as well, but when the day comes that atheists are the majority, then by proxy, their right is to change what we pledge to,a s majority rules.

The Idea of America is that the majority get their way, but that you cannot treat the minority like a minority. Now it is true that forcing your ways onto the minority is not the American way. However, I would argue that the sate represents the people's image, and that you pledge allegiance to serve that image, and agree that you're rights end where other's begins. They have the right, by majority rule, to say the nation is under God, as they are the majority. I would argue you have a right not to say that part, but to delete it is forcing your ways on them.

Ergo, in the democratic republic way of America, Under God should say, and it should be said in schools, but you have the right not to say it. In as much as when atheists are in power and delete it, you have the right to say it even if it is removed.

In the end, what I want to return to is your blatant lie that all the founding fathers were not Christian. In fact, most were. A couple were gnostic or make-up-your-own-faith like Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Payne probably had some atheistic thoughts. But the fact remains that most subscribed to a general Christian religious school of thought. Perhaps the most accurate portrait being some kind of protesant Christian Stoicism.

Originally posted by Lilitu
reply to post by Mastermook

 

Perhaps it wouldn't get banned if it didn't contain divisive references to an imaginary spook in the sky. Restore the original and more citizens will be willing to recite it.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Personally I WILL NOT pledge allegiance, pay homage, or show deference to ANY form of religious delusion. That doesn't mean I don't love my country.

But it's okay to give our undying loyalty to corporate power that reaches into every facet of our lives? Okay

"Undying Loyalty" I"m sure that phrase was in every soldier's mind when he that fought in the Vietnam war. I'm not for indoctrinating young children through repetitive chanting to an ideal that isn't always true.

reply to post by Sinnthia


you just don't get it, do you? i was reciting the pledge and understanding why BEFORE i entered kindergarten ... it was a parental/grandparent influence. (you know, from those who Lived through it)
Ball games, AAABA world series, and general table-top conversation. we actually sat at the dinner table together, nightly. We shared stories, experiences, history, reasoning and general opinions. But, i guess that part of the 'family dynamic' died long ago.

what some tend to forget is that the Pledge wasn't around since the beginning of the US, it was an addition, much like everything else is, today. It was not part of the original plan which is why i do not support it publicly. I do support the pledge personally and instill such in my offspring but their choice to support it as adults, is their choice ... under my leadership, it is MY choice.

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by eNumbra

 

you want to believe "wiki has the truth here" ... that is your prerogative. I prefer historical references not layman additions based on supposition and clearly lacking vital facts. you source whom you choose, i just suggested you make the effort to learn something ... silly me.

Your second link.

www.ushistory.org...

States the same thing that wiki does.

I don't have to make an effort to learn something I already knew.

reply to post by eNumbra

ah yes, choose the most empty offering of all and then claim you already knew it ... typical.
well, as i've encountered many times before, you yet again prove, only the willing actually learn.

reply to post by Honor93


Unless i'm mistaken you disputed Wiki as a source.

yeah ok, but i don't exactly consider Wiki a resource ... after all, i did ask for 'proof' please ... Wiki is hardly proof.
I could say or (print in Wiki) that i am one of the original cosmonauts sent to build the mining sector on the moon ... doesn't make it so.

I proved you wrong with your own resource.

Have fun.


If you mean to dispute bits and pieces of the wiki article you should do so: rather than toss the baby with the bath water by declaring wiki "not a source".

Originally posted by eNumbra
reply to post by Honor93

 

Unless i'm mistaken you disputed Wiki as a source.

yeah ok, but i don't exactly consider Wiki a resource ... after all, i did ask for 'proof' please ... Wiki is hardly proof.
I could say or (print in Wiki) that i am one of the original cosmonauts sent to build the mining sector on the moon ... doesn't make it so.

I proved you wrong with your own resource.

Have fun.

edit on 1/8/2011 by eNumbra because: (no reason given)

If you mean to dispute bits and pieces of the wiki article you should do so: rather than toss the baby with the bath water by declaring wiki "not a source".

edit on 1/8/2011 by eNumbra because: (no reason given)

sorry darling, the only thing you 'proved' is your unwillingness, inability and lack of desire to learn the truth .. peace to ya.
(anyone with an education knows better than to reference Wiki ... we add to wiki so folks like you eventually get the full story) do keep reading though, one day you may find a real 'gem' in there.

ps: since you didn't even mention the Youth's Companion, i know you didn't even bother to read it ... it DOES make a difference, whether you choose to believe it or not ... second sentence from: www.ushistory.org...

It was originally published in The Youth's Companion on September 8, 1892. Bellamy had hoped that the pledge would be used by citizens in any country.

hmmm, socialist adventure to 'indoctrinate' children into socialist propaganda??? sure, yeah, right.

Originally posted by Honor93

sorry darling, the only thing you 'proved' is your unwillingness, inability and lack of desire to learn the truth .. peace to ya.
(anyone with an education knows better than to reference Wiki ... we add to wiki so folks like you eventually get the full story) do keep reading though, one day you may find a real 'gem' in there.

Keep parroting it, by all means. You can drop the word truth all you want as though I'm wrong but I'm not; nor have I suggested that Wiki is a primary resource. I'll repeat myself with a self-quote so you can understand that I did in fact say once before already:

You do realize that wiki articles have citations right? And you are smart enough to track those citations and check that they are in fact legit?

and just so we're absolutely clear I'll directly quote said Citations.

historyofthepledge.com...

As explained in Shelley’s talk, each one of these forces was a key element in the creation of the Pledge. Below is a schematic of the historic background, followed by five timelines: Flag Patriotism and Changes in the Pledge, The Youth’s Companion (the magazine that created and sponsored the Pledge), James Upham (first promoter of the Pledge), Francis Bellamy (author of the Pledge), and Historical Background and Events,.

www.tcdailyplanet.net...

Both citations mention the magazine; you'd have known that had you read them rather than just scoff at Wikipedia, but I'm sure you'll just insist that you and people like you added that. Which in reality only adds to Wiki's credibility as a source, and deflates your argument.


But if you'd like to continue insulting me you're certainly free to do so.

reply to post by Mastermook


As an Atheist, I have the right to not be forced to ally myself with "God". You apparently don't want to respect that.

Is that what your God teaches you?
To disrespect others?

They can change the Pledge and erase any reference to God. "Under God" was added in the 1950's, the pledge was written in the 1890's and did NOT mention God at all. So I know for damn sure that it can be changed.

The original Pledge of Allegiance:

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

yea.. lets remove GOD from EVERYTHING.. yea.. but you all fail to remember, what Godless nations become..

destitude ~~~!! kinda like we are NOW ..

and it's not God's fault.. it ours..

I just graduated last year, and every morning my school days opened with the pledge of allegiance and a "moment of silence" for prayer or contemplation. Though I don't feel like the pledge of allegiance is beneficial. Saying a pledge every morning just diminished the importance of our rights and made it feel like a chore. I don't think that requiring us to say the pledge does not do anything good for our students.

Originally posted by Onboard2

Originally posted by Lilitu
reply to post by Mastermook

 

Perhaps it wouldn't get banned if it didn't contain divisive references to an imaginary spook in the sky. Restore the original and more citizens will be willing to recite it.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Personally I WILL NOT pledge allegiance, pay homage, or show deference to ANY form of religious delusion. That doesn't mean I don't love my country.

But it's okay to give our undying loyalty to corporate power that reaches into every facet of our lives? Okay

Where did he/she say that?
Don't put words in peoples mouths pwease. Okay?

Originally posted by Byteman
reply to post by Mastermook

 

As an Atheist, I have the right to not be forced to ally myself with "God". You apparently don't want to respect that.

Is that what your God teaches you?
To disrespect others?

They can change the Pledge and erase any reference to God. "Under God" was added in the 1950's, the pledge was written in the 1890's and did NOT mention God at all. So I know for damn sure that it can be changed.

The original Pledge of Allegiance:

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

If people want to change it to the original, then that's fine, at least a compromise. But were talking about not pledging at all here. They didn't say change it, they're talking about stopping it all together.

I do respect people who don't believe in God, I'm very opened minded about all. I don't have proof that God exists, and I don't have proof he DOESN'T exist. I just hope athiests will have the same respect for someone who does believe in God.

But for some people to compare God to Santa clause? come on, I'm talking about the origins of the universe..where did it come from? not if some fat guy who slides down a chimney is real or not..Although the origins of Santa clause (Saint Nicholas) do have some truth to it and isn't purely legend, He was a real man, if you were to research it. But not going to get into that.

Also : I'm just curious how do atheist believe we came to be in existence? I'd like to know more about the athiest belief system. And if they believe in the big bang theory..what created the particles that started the big bang..It's all a mystery right now that needs more scientific research.

reply to post by Komodo


Removing "god" from the Pledge isn't removing it from "everything".
Restoring the Pledge to a former version might be the best alternative to make everyone happy...or atleast content!

Even though i'm not religious and don't ally myself with any one god, i wouldn't want god to be taken out of every facet of our lives. It's a part of our nation, its a part of our founding.

But when people are forced to do or say anything there will be some type of revolt.

Originally posted by rogerstigers
I am unsure as to why kids should be pledging allegience to ANYTHING. This should be an adult thing. Kids are not generally aware enough about what the words they are saying mean. Most of them do not truely understand what it means to pledge ones allegience to something.

Maybe they should pinky-swear

reply to post by Mastermook


Wasn't the pledge of allegiance written by a flag manufacturer to increase sales? I know I've seen a read it a few places.

If that's the case, I certainly don't see what the big deal is, it almost sounds like progress to me.

I still have to say the Pledge, although, no one really cares. We don't feel like standing up, I guess.