Sarcasm, Ridicule, Obfuscation, and Ad Hominems on Threads

reply to post by Mary Rose


You say there can be irony and humour with out sarcasm, what about facetiousness?

Since when was it against the rules to be sarcastic anyway?

I understand it doesn't always contribute towards a completely healthy debate, but it's also used as light relief (instead of reacting or insulting or following strong emotions).

The English language should be colourful and playful, not sterile and empty.

reply to post by mr-lizard


Why couldn't i find such words !

Peace

Originally posted by Mary Rose

What have you found to be the best way to handle these posts? Ignore them? Respond to them, calling the poster on the inappropriate, counterproductive technique and leaving it at that? Respond to them as if there had been no lack of common courtesy?

There's an old rule in magic. Name a demon and you take away its power. This often works in argument to. Learn to analyse these sort of posts, you might want to pick posters who are good at this and read their posts to learn how. When you come across counterproductive posters either ignore them or calmly point out what they are doing wrong and then get on with your on-topic posting.

What works to get the thread back to a productive discussion?

You do.
The forum depends on having a reasonable number of people who post on topic without getting too far off course. There will always be idiots, people who got out of bed on the wrong side, bullies and disinfos, and mods will never take care of all of them.

So long as people like you use this forum well without wasting too many words on the malcontents, ATS will still be home to enough interesting threads to make it worthwhile.

The enforcement of rules varies a lot from mod to mod, which is fair enough because al their work is voluntary, but if you ever find anyone promoting paedophilia on ATS, just contact Skeptic Overlord. You'd be amazed how fast he handles those sort of posts. It's the one thing he absolutely won't stand for.

Originally posted by Mary Rose

I’m surprised to see this:

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
Clicking ALERT! on the menu is the most efficient way for staff to quickly see and act on issues in posts and threads, be they positive . . .

The alert button is for positive things, too?

Yes

We also get alerts to applause-worthy posts, compliments from members, thanks for acting in a thread with a problem.
It's a way for a member to say good things about another member, about the site, or whatever and be sure all the mods can see it.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Since when was it against the rules to be sarcastic anyway?

I understand it doesn't always contribute towards a completely healthy debate, but it's also used as light relief (instead of reacting or insulting or following strong emotions).

There's sarcasm and then there is sarcasm.....
If what you are saying fall's within the various sections in Item 15 of the T&C, your post could be actioned.
For example, sarcastic content that:

15a) Offensive Content: You will not Post forum posts, private messages, PODcasts, blog entries, videos, images, and other supported content, links to images or use avatars and/or signatures that are unlawful, harassing, libelous, privacy invading, abusive, threatening, harmful, hateful, vulgar, obscene, and/or disruptive. You will not use text, images, avatars or link to images or domains that contain gore, mutilation, pornography or illegal content. Doing so will result in removal of your Post(s) and immediate termination of your account.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by facelift

The psychological pain you speak of is being felt by everyone reading this thread - so how 'bout we call it even..? You either do not want to grasp how internet Forums work, or you refuse to acknowledge the intricacies of human behavior.


*snip*

edit on Fri Jan 7 2011 by Jbird because: Removed member directed OT comment

I see this morning that you did edit your remark.

However, the way you've left it is to show an emoticon of amazement at my opinion.

And you're speaking for everyone?

Regarding the intricacies of human behavior - I think most people know internally whether they admit it or not that sarcasm is hurtful to others and when they do it they're doing it to protect their own ego, or out of frustration. It's something people do, but should strive not to do - including me, of course.

reply to post by DontTreadOnMe


Oh so that would be acceptable to do, use the report button for positive comments too? I never even thought of that, then again I try not to hit that button too much and become an annoyance lol. I am a mod at a much different kind of forum, and I see how mods get treated there :p

Originally posted by Mary Rose
I've been an ATS member for less than a year.

I'm looking for feedback from the experienced ATS members.

What have you found to be the best way to handle these posts? Ignore them? Respond to them, calling the poster on the inappropriate, counterproductive technique and leaving it at that? Respond to them as if there had been no lack of common courtesy?

I left out respond in kind because I'm assuming everyone agrees that will result in more sarcasm, ridicule, obfuscation, and ad hominem. And when I say this, I'm referring to these things directed at any person - members of ATS as well as public figures. In my opinion, it's all the same - it's all counterproductive.

What works to get the thread back to a productive discussion?

I'm not sure if I'm an "experienced" ATS member but I can tell you what I usually do.

For starters, it depends on the context of the discussion, the topic, and how important the topic is to you, personally.

At first, I had a really big problem with people reverting to personal attacks. But it also depends on what you would call a personal attack. If someone is acting rudely because they believe they're proving you wrong, do some research, do more digging, and give them a healthy dose of reality right back (in a nice way) if your information is being challenged. Actually, sometimes negative/personal attack posts can be helpful to a thread. It just depends on how the thread progresses.

Directly calling someone out on a personal or ad-hominem attack is something you usually shouldn't do.. That person may have simply taken a piece of information or sentence out of context and it could all be a huge misunderstanding. This has happened to me before. There will always be ways to defend your information and arguments without responding negatively. Sometimes other ATS members will make posts that not only defend your own statements but prove the negative post unnecessary and ignorant. In that case, you need say nothing at all because it's already been addressed.

ATS content is always subjective. We view the topics differently, we have varying degrees of knowledge about these things, we all have different backgrounds, past experiences, and overall opinions on this kind of content.

Some people will make posts that sarcastically challenge the very reason for creating a thread in the first place. Sometimes, even if you respond kindly and informatively these people will continue to respond in a way that is meant to be rude and sarcastic. The members on ATS that tend to see things "Black and White" are usually the members that have a reputation for debunking and are usually the kinds of people I, personally, have problems with.

These are probably the most annoying people you'll ever have to deal with on ATS.

In the few years I've been on ATS, on only two occasions have I ever had to send a U2U's to ask why the heck people responded to me the way they did. On both occasions I ended up making friends because I took the time to get to know them a little bit and understand where they were coming from and why they posted what they did.

So a few things to remember..

1) Sometimes people make posts to purposefully draw out a negative response (trolls). Don't take the bait. If they continue, report them to the mods.

2) If the negative post bothers you and you feel like you absolutely must reply, think of a clever way to respond that makes their post look like a huge waste of time. Do the research, take the time to make a response that clarifies the discussion and refocuses attention on the topic at hand.

3) If certain members (those not known for being trolls) continue to respond negatively or sarcastically, send them a U2U and ask them, in a nice way, what the heck their problem is. Introduce yourself, explain why you said what you did, and tell them why their posts bother you. You'll probably get a response. You might even be able to make a new friend.

-ChriS

Originally posted by BlasteR
That person may have simply taken a piece of information or sentence out of context and it could all be a huge misunderstanding.

Ah, yes. The misunderstanding.

Thanks for reminding me of this!!

Originally posted by BlasteR
In the few years I've been on ATS, on only two occasions have I ever had to send a U2U's to ask why the heck people responded to me the way they did. On both occasions I ended up making friends because I took the time to get to know them a little bit and understand where they were coming from and why they posted what they did.

WOW! I’m impressed. I’m going to remember this.

Originally posted by Mary Rose

Originally posted by facelift

The psychological pain you speak of is being felt by everyone reading this thread - so how 'bout we call it even..? You either do not want to grasp how internet Forums work, or you refuse to acknowledge the intricacies of human behavior.


*snip*

edit on Fri Jan 7 2011 by Jbird because: Removed member directed OT comment

I see this morning that you did edit your remark.

However, the way you've left it is to show an emoticon of amazement at my opinion.

And you're speaking for everyone?

Regarding the intricacies of human behavior - I think most people know internally whether they admit it or not that sarcasm is hurtful to others and when they do it they're doing it to protect their own ego, or out of frustration. It's something people do, but should strive not to do - including me, of course.

No, a mod edited it...you can see the name of the person who edited it is Jbird, not the original poster facelift.

This is sometimes how it works, the mods will not contact you directly to let you know if they have actioned a complaint, they don't have time for that. But if you check back at the post you found offensive from time to time, you will often see that it has been edited or removed by a mod if apppropriate.

I think though to post on any internet forum you have to put your armour on before you sign in, and whilst ATS staff are fantastic at ensuring genuinely nasty and offensive stuff is removed and posters warned or banned, you cannot really expect everyone to simply agree with everything you say and those who voice their disagreement in a way that personally displeases you, have their posts removed, regardless of whether you think they've been sarcastic or whatever else in their response. It would certainly put me off replying to any of your threads if I thought I was going to be reported for having an alternative viewpoint and writing style.

Originally posted by destination now
No, a mod edited it...you can see the name of the person who edited it is Jbird, not the original poster facelift.

Thanks!

Obviously, I didn't read that part.

Originally posted by destination now
. . . you cannot really expect everyone to simply agree with everything you say . . . reported for having an alternative viewpoint and writing style.

I don't believe that is what I'm doing.

Do you have the impression I expect everyone to agree with me?

"Writing style" can be a rationalization for rudeness. But of course, this is subjective and opinions differ.

reply to post by Mary Rose

Do you have the impression I expect everyone to agree with me?

"Writing style" can be a rationalization for rudeness. But of course, this is subjective and opinions differ.

No, I don't think you expect everyone to agree with you, but I do feel that anyone who does not will have their "writing style" scrutinised and if deemed, in your subjective opinion to be "rude" then they will be reported. This of course may be why you feel the mods do not action your complaints as you would like, as they may view the "writing style" of the post entirely differently to you and deem it totally inoffensive.

reply to post by destination now


Yes, I agree that my standard is different from what the majority seems to be here on ATS.

Originally posted by Mary Rose
reply to post by destination now

 

Yes, I agree that my standard is different from what the majority seems to be here on ATS.

Well I find the majority of posters on ATS to have wide and varied, yet equally valid opinions, with people from all cultural and social backgrounds from all corners of the globe, often with English as a second language, and varying degrees of educational attainment, specialist knowledge and beliefs. I may not agree with all of them, in fact I will probably disagree with a lot of them at different times, depending on the topic.

However, I do not believe that my "standard" is greater or lesser than anyone else's and am aware that when people are posting their thoughts on such a large and diverse internet forum like ATS, that there is scope for misunderstanding without intentional malice, and it is the responsibility of each individual to "police" themselves to ensure that the debate can continue in a civilized, mutually respectful manner.

If you believe that you have a "different" standard to the majority of members on this site, then perhaps you should look to yourself, rather than complaining about everyone else!

Originally posted by destination now
If you believe that you have a "different" standard to the majority of members on this site, then perhaps you should look to yourself, rather than complaining about everyone else!

The standard I was referring to is only my standard for rudeness which I interpret sarcasm to be. I have the impression that on ATS the majority of members and mods don't see it that way.