Non-U.S. Views of Fahrenheit 9/11

I'm just wondering what the reaction is among ATS members who are not Americans. Our view of this movie is slanted, whether we are Bush supporters, Moore supporters, or fence-sitters, simply because we are on the inside.

So what's the reaction of our brothers and sisters on the other side of the pond?

Imho the views of most people aren't non-US or anti american at all.

What is america? Its people or its politicians?
What do you think people from other country's dislike? Its people of its politicians? The peoples actions or the actions of politics and military?

I know alot of americans, worked there, lived there. In general, appart from some extremist nutjobs(wich you'll also find in other country's) there isn't much difference between americans and europeans.

no, no, I didn't mean the opinion of people who are anti-american, I meant people who don't live in the States

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

F-9/11 opens here in Britain tomorrow. I will be seeing it at some point, looking forward to it. I have only seen the bit on the trailer where Bush babbles on about terror and then says "Now watch this drive."

Have fun, earth, and bring some salt with you

Ahh, you mean what a non US citizen thinks about the movie !!

My bad. Must've been cause I didn't get my coffee yet when I reply'd :p

Well, as I already said in another thread. The movie doesn't show anything new to me and there is a whole lot more that should've been shown.

What I don't understand is that the US citizens, that have their roots in patriotisme and the search for freedom in the new land, are generaly so blind about whats going on around them. And worst, that a whole lot of them actualy believe the # television shows them ..

Well, matrix, let me explain the mentality of the average American right now.

First off, they pump us full of fear, telling us the enemy is looking over our shoulder, waiting to pounce and kill us at any moment.

Second, they tell us that if you do not follow what the Administration says is right, you are, bascially, a traitor. Dissent toward TPTB is unacceptable. Patriotism, to them, is not about standing up for what you believe in, it means standing up for what they say you should stand up for, and nothing else.

I'm a waiter, and recently, I heard one of my coworkers say that if he ever saw Michael Moore on the street, he would kill Moore for being un-American. I tried to explain to him that being American meant that everyone has the right to say what they feel they need to say. He just shook his head and told me not to become one of "them".

It is a horrible thing when one American can say another American should die for using the rights our forefathers gave us to protect us from those in power who would hurt us.

Patriotism has lost it's meaning here, because the general consensus is that being patriotic means standing by your government no matter what. Unfortunately, this is the opposite of what Patriotism means. I'll finish this off with one of my favorite quotes:

�Why of course the people don�t want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back in one piece? Naturally, the common people don�t want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.� -Hermann Goring, Commander of the Nazi Germany Air Force, or Luftwaffe. April 18, 1946. Nuremburg Diary by Gustave Gilbert

This quote scared me far more than any terrorist could. I just hope that people approach things with an open mind, and don't get caught up in something just because it's what they're told to believe. I was behind the Iraq War 100% until I heard something about the Nigerian documents being questioned. After I looked into it, things kind of went downhill from there.

For those replying, I'm also curious as to whether or not you feel that in your daily lives you are bombarded by more US news than that of your own country....And if so, does that effect your views on F 9/11 positivley or negatively in a sort of reanalysis of the past 4 years of news?

�Why of course the people don�t want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back in one piece? Naturally, the common people don�t want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.� -Hermann Goring, Commander of the Nazi Germany Air Force, or Luftwaffe. April 18, 1946. Nuremburg Diary by Gustave Gilbert

Wow, that is some chilling quote. I wish there was some way that all of the country could see that. It might just wake some people up. Thanks for sharing that.

Of course, that is a very striking quote that embodies the ideals Nazi Germany, but there are many historical documents that can be taken out of context and be equally, if not more frightening....I fail to see how the US can truly be compared to the historical context of that quote - I see shades of simliarty, but they are in no way suggestive of another Hitler IMHO

But that's still a great quote and I can see why you would use it here to support your arguement

I think its great that there are people like Michael Moore out there that make documentaries and show that everything is not as great as it seems. However his movies are a bit too "sensational" for my taste. On the other hand people would probably not go and watch it if it wasnt sensational...
What disturbs me a little though (or what I think is a bit weird) is that Moore does these readings. He reads out passages of his books which itself is great however he wants $20 entry fee from the people who want to listen to him. I have never heard of any other author doing that! So yeah in the end it is all about money too...

I come from Germany and have to say that the atmosphere is not anti-American at all.... yes maybe it is anti-Bush but thats something different. Especially since Moore taught us that the people did not actually vote him to be president.

Originally posted by fr34ked
I come from Germany and have to say that the atmosphere is not anti-American at all.... yes maybe it is anti-Bush but thats something different. Especially since Moore taught us that the people did not actually vote him to be president.

I love that statement!! It basically encapsulates what I think of the Bush admin in a nutshell! Living in the capitol of FL, I have some personal experience with this.....hotels were booked all throughout town during this press event which happened to coincide with football.....tisk tisk.....lol - Even Jeb sho8uld have known they more money was to be mad in footbal season than in his brother's fraud election coverage......

Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun

Originally posted by fr34ked
I come from Germany and have to say that the atmosphere is not anti-American at all.... yes maybe it is anti-Bush but thats something different. Especially since Moore taught us that the people did not actually vote him to be president.

I love that statement!! It basically encapsulates what I think of the Bush admin in a nutshell! Living in the capitol of FL, I have some personal experience with this.....hotels were booked all throughout town during this press event which happened to coincide with football.....tisk tisk.....lol - Even Jeb sho8uld have known they more money was to be mad in footbal season than in his brother's fraud election coverage......

- yup, that's my view in Northern Ireland too.

Bush got his family and their friends on the Supreme Court to help him steal the election and he and his party have spent the last 4 yrs crying about how come 'everyone' is anti-American when in fact it's not America 'we' hate it's him. We have zero respect for the selected President, we'd respect an actual freely and fairly elected one.

.....and all that stuff with the ethnic minorities in the US in 2000 was plain aweful and very very worrying.

We also hate the Iraqi war he manipulated the UK into too (the 'interplay between the US and UK intelligence services has been a 'game' to behold - yet the US is known to have fed the UK when it need to and vice-versa).....and for what? To secure US and Israeli interests. Why should we go along with that?

.....and we sure as hell are not going to go along wth any new war.

We've watched your administration shred many of the freedoms the US used to hold dear and fell little but disgust at the blatent 'snouts in the trough' mentality where record fraud rips off the little guys and nothing is ever done (Enron, Worldcom, Halliburton etc etc). It's not advert for the US model of capitalism.

.....and there are few Europeans that are happy to go along with this 'with us or against us' mentality......we heard that one before, about 60yrs previously in central europe. We worry that your US political centre of gravity now considers Bush 'centre-right' and just about every european grouping by that reckoning 'hard-left'.

Don't get me wrong, I have US relatives and I do not hate the USA but damn I do worry about what it appears you guys think is the way things are. Fox news and people like Rush Lowbrow are downright scary.

[edit on 19-7-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

This is funny......I was checking on another post and I read a the signature of someone who replied to a comment - their memeber name is smirkley - This is what his sig says....

ALL TRUTH PASSES THROUGH THREE STAGES:
FIRST it is ridiculed; SECOND, it is violently opposed; THIRD, it is accepted as being self-evident.

I thought that was a funny little coincedence...relates almost exactly to this subject and the public reactions....I hope it's true - and I hope number three doesn't take some abismal amount of time to pass

Originally posted by RockerDom
So what's the reaction of our brothers and sisters on the other side of the pond?

I am north of the border in Canada. I saw the documentary the second weekend after it was released.

Before I saw this documentary I have always held the idea that the U.S Government was complicit in some way with 9/11. Then, when I saw the documentary, I was surprised that the U.S Government allowed this to be shown all around the world. I'm glad that the complicity of the U.S Government has shown up in the events of 9/11 on a wide scale with the release of this documentary.

I was surprised when G. W. Bush just sat there in that classroom, calm, as if nothing was happening. I think in a scenario where America is under attack, he would have been taken away quickly at the first intelligence of the Planes hitting the WTC. This calmness from G. W. Bush made if obvious to myself that he knew what was to occur that very morning on 9/11.

As for American news media, I am bombarded with it. When I saw the planes crashing into the towers on 9/11, 2001, I was in amazement that such a thing could occur in one of the most Militarily secured Countries in the world. Not to mention a Country that has enormous domestic espionage powers over its citizens. Later, CNN started showing a bar at the bottom that said, "America Under Attack". A constant drilling of those towers being struck, coupled with "America Under Attack", made it sound like America was under attack from an outside Military Force. It was obvious, though, that the attack was just civilian planes. The United States Government, coupled with its Intelligence Agencies, wields enormous power over what happens inside the Homeland.

Overall, it was a good expose on what occurs at the highest levels of the United States Government.

I posted this in another thread (here).

"I agree with the poster (Good Subject Line :-)).

I have seen the movie and frankly I was disappointed. I thought it was rather mild and could have gone much further. I don't understand what all of the vitriol is about.

The information contained in the movie has been available in public discourse for some time now on hundreds of websites and has been debated and written about by dozens of columnists and authors.

It is a sign of the times when such relatively mild criticism generates such hostility. "

Ditto, I'm in Canada too. Saw the movie this weekend. And what I enjoyed the most was seeing that woman who lost her son in Iraq come to the realization that you can protest the war in Iraq while still supporting the troops themselves... they're doing they job, and didn't ask to go there. And as Moore says at the end... "They trust us never to send them into harm's way unless it's absolutely necessary. Will they ever trust us again?"

My girlfriend is American, and what she's shown me is that it's too easy to disapprove of an entire nation because of the actions of its leaders. It's much harder - but much more noble - to understand that Americans are good people, just like other nations, but with a currently questionable leadership, to say the least. I think that Michael Moore epitomizes this, and reinforces what it is to be American. It's not about him being right or wrong, but about him having the courage to stand up and claim his right to his opinion, and say out loud to America "Come on, we're better than this!"

Im from the arse end of the world[Australia]

Have not seen the movie yet, but I think Michael Moore is great as i think his approach to express his opinions/facts is in your face and funny at the same time. Unfortunately i think the poor bastard has been pulled in by the hype machine( not meaning the guy has sold out) i just believe that the easiest way to get rid of someone who is pointing out the lies of a government is to hype there popularity to set them up to fail, because most journalists in Australia wont give him a chance, discredit him as being false, and his movie is only allowed to be screened at independent cinemas.

Cheers back to the beers

hi thatguy, dunno what part of Australia you are from, but what you are saying is not actually correct about the screening. I've done a Google search & in less than 10 seconds have found that Fahrenheit 9/11 opens on 29th July at Greater Union & Reading Cinemas. There are advanced screenings happening this weekend at some of their cinemas. ( unfortunately there doesn't appear to be one in Vic, which is becoming more & more like QLD was under Joh Bjelke Peterson.......damn Bracks )

Advance Screenings this weekend at the following selected locations:
NSW: Bondi Junction, Burwood, Castle Hill, Hornsby, Macquarie, Miranda, Parramatta, Tuggerah, Wollongong
ACT: Manuka
QLD: Chermside, Garden City, Indooroopilly,
SA: Marion
WA: Innaloo



Now getting back to the movie... We've seen pretty much ad nauseum about the release of this movie by Mike Moore, on shows like 60 Minutes, Sunday, A Current Affair, The Movie Show, etc. We've even had interviews with Mike Moore where he has insulted not only the President of the USA ( his prerogative ), but our Australian Prime Minister. He stated that John Howard ( our PM ) looks like he only has half a brain, from a distance, & that George W Bush has not got one.

Personally, I'm offended by that remark, but at the same time acknowledge Mr Moores right to free speech. Its a pity his opinions weren't based of facts thou, instead of personal opinions.

It disturbs me that one person could very well be responsible for the changing of Governments in possibly three countries. In Australia voting is compulsory, which means that the thinking AND non-thinking public are forced to cast a vote, informed OR uninformed. If they don't vote, they are fined.

Also, instead of saying what a joke it was to have ousted Saddam Hussein's regieme & that we should all get the hell out of Iraq now, perhaps he should go & speak to some of the victims families who were killed & tortured by Saddams & his people.

I have plenty more to say about this, but don't want to get into a full on bun-fight with you guys over voicing my opinion, but I will say one thing. I will be watching Fahrenheit 9/11 BUT I will not pay once cent to see it.

Thanx for listening......................sorry for the rant.

Rants are welcome, fig, no worries. I didn't think this thread would get this many responses, to tell the truth. However, it is nice to see that all of you say the same thing many of us in the States say, which is, "I don't dislike America, just the people in charge of it right now."

I absolutely love my country, and it's ideals, I just feel this Administration is pulling away at a rather spirited pace from what it should be. I don't like pre-emptive wars. I am glad Saddam is no longer in power, but I feel there was another, better way.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: I don't agree with how Moore presents things sometimes, but I'm glad the movie was made. I'm also glad Michael Moore Hates America was made. I believe in Free Speech, no matter what is said, as long as it's not obscene.

Thanks for all of the responses.