Here is your war on Terrorism ! America !

Originally posted by xavi1000
When i was little kid my grandpa said to me no one human wants war .He was wrong .

War wasn't always profitable. War used to be fought for the survival of ideologies. Now people who fight for ideals are called terrorists while the large profiteers claim to be liberators.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Originally posted by xavi1000
When i was little kid my grandpa said to me no one human wants war .He was wrong .

War wasn't always profitable.

Yes, it always has bee profitable - for someone. Even in the days before commerce, crows and vultures followed the sounds of war for their next meal. People, of course, have always profited. Always. There is no incentive to go to war and take a chance on being killed permanently dead otherwise. I suppose it depends on how one defines "profit", and suspect that you mean financially. Financial profit has been gained from every war that ever happened after the invention of money. Every single one.

War HAS always been profitable.

War used to be fought for the survival of ideologies.

War has been waged for nearly every reason under the sun, not just "ideological reasons". I personally will never again fight for ideology, and am not entirely convinced that I ever did. I fought for people, and left the ideologies to the professional politicians. If they want to fight over an ideology, more power to 'em let them have at it. That would be an ideal way to thin out their ranks.

Now people who fight for ideals are called terrorists while the large profiteers claim to be liberators.

People who fight for "ideals" have always been terrorists. An abstract notion such as "ideals" is a poor thing to stake one's life on. It reminds me of the phrase "God save us from the true believers". I'm quite content to let "ideals" fight their own battles - see how that turns out. Same goes for gods. I'm happy to let gods fight out their own battles as well. If their really deities, they don't need my help. If they truly are gods, but still need my help, what does that make me in relation to them? For one thing, it makes them pretty damned weak as gods go.

No, I only fight people for other people. The rest can look after their own messes.

reply to post by nenothtu


It sounds like you once believed in something, then you gave up.

I will always fight for an ideal world... in fact, I will also be the ideal that I fight for.

Ideals are what direct the will of the people. Profit is the enemy of will, because some people are corrupt enough to only care about themselves and their own survival, not of anyone else. Anyone who seeks profit will eventually kill all of their own kind until they all die just for profit, it is like a drug; those who seek ideals will even give their own lives up just to see their own kind live.

Originally posted by phatpackage
reply to post by Nephi1337

 

It's a war! Righty or Wrongly people die, get over it! It is sad, very sad that innocents die but it is a war & by no means detracts from the overall effort in Iraq!

There is nothing right about war and you dont get over it..

kx

BS.

Until the very, very recent past, soldiers were able to confiscate and divide the spoils taken in battle. War ever has, and ever will, been a matter of profit.

You think Genghis Khan spread out with goodwill on his mind?

Does anyone think Julius Caesar just wanted to make surrounding regions more educated?

Every single tribe, province, culture or nation has been motivated to war on their neighbors over the prospect of gain. Fields, harvest, money, women, slaves.

The soldiers used to be able to personally profit from what they took in battle, and while it may continue on a low level, the reduction of personal gain sure takes the enthusiasm out of battle.

That idealism? That's what we tell the women to get away with it. Like telling your wife that you're going to the pub as your friend lost his job, and you're going with him to cheer him up.

Yeah.

Right.

It's a justification to do what will directly or indirectly provide gain.

Any pure idealist that joins the military to fortify that idealism will soon be very disappointed and become more pragmatic as time goes on.

Originally posted by FarArcher
Any pure idealist that joins the military to fortify that idealism will soon be very disappointed and become more pragmatic as time goes on.

Gee, really? Probably why I am barred from the military

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
reply to post by nenothtu

 

It sounds like you once believed in something, then you gave up.

Sure, I was young once. Age and experience cured that. I look around, and see the things I fought against still trying to take over, and having a bit more success at it these days. In that sense, you could say I lost. Happens sometimes.

The people I fought for, on the other hand, have a better life for it these days. Well, all except those who willfully gave up on the better life offered them. That's their decision - at least they had the option.

I will always fight for an ideal world... in fact, I will also be the ideal that I fight for.

Ideals are what direct the will of the people. Profit is the enemy of will, because some people are corrupt enough to only care about themselves and their own survival, not of anyone else. Anyone who seeks profit will eventually kill all of their own kind until they all die just for profit, it is like a drug; those who seek ideals will even give their own lives up just to see their own kind live.

Strangely, that in no way changes my firm conviction that folks who fight for ideals are true terrorists, being the True Believers and all that. Those who fight for ideals care nary a whit for people - otherwise, they'd fight for people rather than abstract ideals. Oh, they say they care about people, but the lie is given to that when they fight for ideals.

Ideals KILL people. It's as simple as that.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Originally posted by FarArcher
Any pure idealist that joins the military to fortify that idealism will soon be very disappointed and become more pragmatic as time goes on.

Gee, really? Probably why I am barred from the military

I suspect there's more to it than that!

reply to post by nenothtu

Ideals KILL people. It's as simple as that.

Surely some ideals are worth fighting for..

The constitution is just an "ideal"..

Peace is just an "ideal"..

Sometimes you need to fight to see peace...

Originally posted by nenothtu
Ideals KILL people. It's as simple as that.

No. People kill people, for many different reasons. At least with an ideal, there is a goal for it.

I suspect there's more to it than that!

They came up with a few reasons. I went in there for testing with about 12 other people who were all there for some free education and something nice to put on their resume. The only two who stood out was me (some guy who grew up in a forest town with life experience in the bush and experience studying politics and warfare) and some quiet Chinese guy who sat in the corner and kept his mouth shut. They booted me out before I even made it to medical that day when they looked over my "records" that the government keeps on me (Hint: I don't have a criminal record).

backinblack-
Sometimes you need to fight to see peace...

Just like the Soviets. Back during WWI, the Czar kept sending his barely armed soldiers to die against the Germans and his country was falling apart. The Russians wanted unity, peace and progression. The Czar wanted to continue the war. Even the Germans wanted peace there, so they gave Lenin a free ride to Russia on the promise that he would end that front of the war.

Lenin organized the Red Army while the White Army defeated the Black Army. Then the Red Army overran the White Army and Imperialist Russia evolved into the Soviet Union. That entire revolution was all about ideals. The profiteers were the regional empires with stakes in Russia; they sent in their own expeditionary forces after the revolution and the Soviets beat them off all the way from Eastern Europe to Siberia.

reply to post by phatpackage


*cough* deny ignorance *cough*

I still don't understand how anyone can actually sincerely believe that the war on "terror" is actually a war on terror. Thier is so much proof that show otherwise, including just the financial gains alone, not to mention its basically was based as another "religious" war. The majority as far as I know no longer even believe in this war including american's themselves, but thier is still (and probably always will be) those devote "patriots" who will believe anything they are told by thier. ALL MIGHTY GOVERNMENT

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Ideals KILL people. It's as simple as that.

Surely some ideals are worth fighting for..

Perhaps for some, but not for me. An ideal won't feed you, you can't roll up in it on a cold night. You can't take it to the grocery store and come out with a bag of grub, and you can't hoe corn with it. You can't have a beer and a conversation with one. To me, ideals are useless things that some folks die for because others are willing to kill over them.

The constitution is just an "ideal"..

Depends on your viewpoint, I suppose. To you, perhaps, it's an ideal. To George Bush, it's "just a God-damned piece of paper" ( I reckon no one told him it is parchment). To me, it's a contract - and one that the government has failed to keep their end of. It's a blueprint for governance in contractual form. Perhaps the fault is in my perception of an ideal.

Peace is just an "ideal"..

I see "peace" as a state of being, largely created and fostered within the self. Maybe my faulty perception stems from the "idea" part of "ideal". I occasionally trip over an idea, but not being very goal-oriented, I don't grasp it and hold it and make of it a thing to be striven for at all costs. It seems possible that what you folks are calling "ideals" are what I would refer to as "principles".

Sometimes you need to fight to see peace...

On that we can agree. No truer words were ever spoken.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Originally posted by nenothtu
Ideals KILL people. It's as simple as that.

No. People kill people, for many different reasons. At least with an ideal, there is a goal for it.

Spoken like a true idealist. We obviously see things differently. Thee are NO ideals that I will lay my life on the line for, and conversely there are none I will kill for. When your ideals threaten to overrun my people, though, there will most certainly be trouble.

I suspect there's more to it than that!

They came up with a few reasons. I went in there for testing with about 12 other people who were all there for some free education and something nice to put on their resume. The only two who stood out was me (some guy who grew up in a forest town with life experience in the bush and experience studying politics and warfare) and some quiet Chinese guy who sat in the corner and kept his mouth shut. They booted me out before I even made it to medical that day when they looked over my "records" that the government keeps on me (Hint: I don't have a criminal record).

Not sure what sort of government records you're referring to, then. I know that the FBI had a jacket on me when I was in high school over some suspected illegal activities, and they went so far as to come around interviewing folks about me over it, but I do believe that file folder got eclipsed some time soon afterwards in government file cabinets by some other paperwork they were holding on me. As a matter of fact, I think the FBI file just sort of fell off someone's desk into a trash can over time...

Nice perspective on the Soviets, but I don't think that's a discussion I want to get into with you, all things considered.

You have a nice life, Dmitri.

Originally posted by phatpackage
reply to post by Nephi1337

 

It's a war! Righty or Wrongly people die, get over it! It is sad, very sad that innocents die but it is a war & by no means detracts from the overall effort in Iraq!

Yes, it's a war. A war that had no reason for happening. Rightly, Saddam and his two bastard progeny died. Wrongly, a HELL of a lot of other people died with them. It damn sure DOES matter. And yes, the deaths of over 66 thousand civilians DOES detract from the "overall effort" in Iraq.

Don't try to cover your pasty white comfortable American ass with that "sad, very sad" comment, while brushing aside all that death to rah-rah a war your have a little chubby for,

reply to post by nenothtu


Your words are a contradiction of yourself..

Too much fighting often does that when you find what you were fighting for is a lie..

Peace to you and thanks..")

Originally posted by nenothtu
Thee are NO ideals that I will lay my life on the line for, and conversely there are none I will kill for.

Okay, but...

When your ideals threaten to overrun my people, though, there will most certainly be trouble.

One of these things is not like the other.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Your words are a contradiction of yourself..

I think not, but you're welcome to explain to me how so.

Too much fighting often does that when you find what you were fighting for is a lie..

Peace to you and thanks..")

Now, how is it you know that "what I was fighting for was a lie"? What was it I was fighting for, if I'm not to be allowed the luxury of determining my own motivations?

I know some people who are "liars", but I wouldn't say that any of them are "a lie". They seem to be people to me, rather than abstract words which label a condition of being an untruth personified.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

Originally posted by nenothtu
Thee are NO ideals that I will lay my life on the line for, and conversely there are none I will kill for.

Okay, but...

When your ideals threaten to overrun my people, though, there will most certainly be trouble.

One of these things is not like the other.

Precisely. One of these things is NOT like the other. People are solid entities, ideals are abstractions. So where is the dichotomy? What is your point here?

Ideals may die, but they don't bleed in the process.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

Originally posted by nenothtu
Thee are NO ideals that I will lay my life on the line for, and conversely there are none I will kill for.

Okay, but...

When your ideals threaten to overrun my people, though, there will most certainly be trouble.

One of these things is not like the other.

Precisely. One of these things is NOT like the other. People are solid entities, ideals are abstractions. So where is the dichotomy? What is your point here?

Ideals may die, but they don't bleed in the process.

edit on 2011/1/12 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)

True ideals are born out of the darkest sides of humanity. They are the keys to social evolution. Ideals are the bigger picture, the strategic picture.

Just look at the cold war. It was all about two central yet global ideologies. The battles were all about tactical gains, but the war was for an ideal.