Here is your war on Terrorism ! America !

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Are you on drugs???
I DIDN'T say there were no deaths before the US arrived..
II was arguing your point on insurgents..!!!!!

None of the info you quoted mentions INSURGENTS...

What kind of BS twisting game are you playing.???

Originally posted by backinblack
Are you on drugs???
I DIDN'T say there were no deaths before the US arrived..
II was arguing your point on insurgents..!!!!!

None of the info you quoted mentions INSURGENTS...

What kind of BS twisting game are you playing.???

...Don't try to blame on me whatever the heck you do with drugs...

Many of the so called insurgents are remnants of Saddam's regime, and the terrorists flocking to Iraq would have been flocking to European countries, or even to the U.S. to attack the western cities...

Those same "insurgents/terrorists" people like you have been calling "freedom fighters" have been murdering Iraqi civilians as well, so these people would have been murdering others in other parts of the world if they were not in Iraq...

BTW, suicide bombers are part of the insurgency, or who are you claiming that they are now?...

reply to post by phatpackage


i suppose you think that if more innocent people get killed it will create less insurgents and give people less incentive to pick up arms?

if you need to be there at least get the right people, killing an innocent mans family or loved ones only creates somebody with nothing left to live for who wants revenge.

And btw, if the U.S. and allies hadn't gone there to depose Saddam Iraqi civilians, Kurds and the mayority of people in Iraq who are Shiites would have been still murdered daily by Saddam's regime.

So if the U.S. and allies hadn't gone there YES there would have been many Iraqi civilians murdered and tortured as what had been happening in Iraq before the war.

If I blame the Bush family for anything, among other things is for giving in to the demands of the left to leave the Shiite muslims that allied with the U.S. in the first Gulf War, leaving them to fend for themselves which caused them to be persecuted for rising up against the tyrant that was Saddam. Then again JFK did the same thing with the Cuban resistance in the Bay of Pigs, promising first to help them, and then deciding to leave them stranded to be captured and or killed.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


The different fractions in Iraq fight multiple fronts. Each other and the fraction that support the US + the US.

It is way out of line to say that some of these fractions would have traveled to the US to commit terrorism. It would have been more likely that they rather would try to commit acts of terror to gain political and tactical grounds to be able to rule Iraq over the other fractions. I would say: that is the type of acts we see. It is a fight for power mixed with revenge.

What the US invasion of Iraq did. It made it possible for these different groups/fractions go to war with each other. The Only Americans who will die because of this, are the once standing in their way in Iraq.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


What a crock..
The majority believe the "so called" war on terror has done nothing but create more terrorists..

But I could have told them that years ago at much less cost of life and dollars..

Yes Saddam would of killed more but the same is happening in many other places that the US don't seem to care about..

----Thread Update----

Suicide bomber kills 17 in S. Afghanistan

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan, Jan. 7 (Xinhua) -- A suicide bomber blew himself up on Friday noon in south Afghanistan, killing 17 people, injuring 21 others, local official told Xinhua.

Spokesman of Kandahar province government, Zalmai Ayubi, said, "Till now, 17 people have been killed including a police officer, and 21 others were injured,

Taliban bomb expert captured by NATO

Afghan and NATO coalition forces have captured a Taliban leader, reported to be an expert in using improvised explosive devices, in southern Afghanistan, a NATO statement said Friday. The Taliban leader, operating in Qalat district and responsible for targeting many coalition-force vehicles in the district, was arrested during a security operation in Zabul province Thursday, Xinhua reported citing a NATO news release.

Another report stated that the captured leader wanted a videotape of suicide bombings in order to plan future suicide attacks against coalition forces

Pak security elements having sympathy with Taliban 'must still be there': Musharraf

Former Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf has acknowledged that some parts of the state security apparatus have sympathies with the Taliban or al Qaeda, and they may as well be cooperating with them.

In an interview with Foreign Policy, when asked if it was true that some parts of the state security apparatus had sympathies with the Taliban, as they did in the past, Musharraf replied: "Yes, yes, that's right. Elements who have sympathy toward Taliban or al Qaeda in the past were there. They must still be there."

[edited for double post]

Originally posted by backinblack

What a crock..

What is a crock is that people like you seem to think that making asinine comments makes you right. You don't even show ANY form of evidence just your claims.

Originally posted by backinblack
The majority believe the "so called" war on terror has done nothing but create more terrorists..

I find it amusing, and willfully ignorant that first, anyone would claim "they know what the majority of people think", and second that they think that because more people agree with them they HAVE to be right...

You know, not too long ago the majority of people in the known world thought the Earth was flat.... did that make them right?...

Originally posted by backinblack
But I could have told them that years ago at much less cost of life and dollars..

Riiiight...

Originally posted by backinblack
Yes Saddam would of killed more but the same is happening in many other places that the US don't seem to care about..

I have posted several times before evidence that the same people who armed Saddam with WMD, are the same people who removed them and lured the U.S. to attack Iraq.

As I posted before part of the evidence "that doesn't exist"...

NEWS
New Search for Iraqi Nuclear Equipment
January 14, 1992 | By JOHN J. GOLDMAN, TIMES STAFF WRITER

U.N. nuclear inspectors have returned to Iraq after receiving information that German manufacturers sold Iraqi President Saddam Husseins scientists several thousand gas centrifuges designed to enrich uranium for atomic bombs. U.N. sources said Monday that export data about the centrifuges was provided to the International Atomic Energy Agency by the German government, prompting the new search mission.

articles.latimes.com...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9076c0a287c9.gif[/atsimg]
www.iraqwatch.org...


Despite the fact that Bush junior kept claiming that Russia has been our friend, we know quite the contrary.

Putin Says Russia Warned U.S. on Saddam

Jun 18, 7:56 AM (ET)


ASTANA, Kazakhstan (Reuters) - Russia warned the United States on several occasions that Iraq's Saddam Hussein planned "terrorist attacks" on its soil, President Vladimir Putin said Friday.

"After the events of September 11, 2001, and before the start of the military operation in Iraq, Russian special services several times received such information and passed it on to their American colleagues," he told reporters.

The Kremlin leader, who was speaking in the Kazakh capital, said Russian intelligence services had many times received information that Saddam's special forces were preparing terrorist attacks in the United States "and beyond its borders on American military and civilian targets."

"This information was conveyed to our American colleagues," he said. He added that Russian intelligence had no proof that Saddam agents had been involved in any particular attack.

Russia had diplomatic relations with Saddam's Iraq and opposed the U.S.-led military offensive that toppled him.
...

Link

Anyone remembers for how long before this announcement Putin, and the KGB, excuse me, the Russian mafia were claiming the same thing so many people are claiming now, that the U.S. had no reason for attacking Iraq, and it was illegal?...


We know for certain Russia became Saddam's number 1 WMD and other banned military equipment provider in the 1990s and until the war, and we even know that Russia was even giving out to Saddam's regime our troop movements during the war but they did some back door deal, and the Bush administration fired the U.S. official who became a whistleblower that both the left and the right media ignored.

This whistleblower was/is John A. Shaw, who served as Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for International Technology Security and in a variety of other senior U.S. Government positions. In fact it was Shaw's job to investigate Saddam's WMD program. When he went to his superiors with evidence as to what was happening to the Iraqi WMD Shaw was fired and I quote:

After accusing Russian GRU of helping Saddam to remove his WMD, Shaw was asked to resign for "exceeding his authority" in disclosing the information, a charge he called "specious." Shaw was forced out of office when his position was eliminated on December 10, 2004.

en.wikipedia.org...

We also had the reports from allied nations around Iraq whose military saw large Russian convoys move in and out of Iraq. Not to mention the report from Sada who was the #2 high ranking official in Saddam's Air Force who said he was a witness of how civilian aircraft were retrofitted to move out WMD from Iraq.

www.nysun.com...

That also goes without mentioning that Saddam's regime also gave several Russians ex-officials medals for their help before the war in Iraq, and other facts such as.

In Search of Saddam Hussein’s WMD: The Russian Connection
Part 2 of a 5
World/Scott Malensek
April 4, 2006

In December 2002, Russia’s Middle East envoy, Yevgeny Primakov (former Russian Intelligence Chief), flew to Baghdad under the front of making one last chance for peace with the dictator. As soon as his plane landed, it was allegedly loaded with “sensitive materials” and flown directly to Belarus. People speculate as to whether or not it was WMD, WMD equipment, documents, people, or things the Russians didnt want the US to get their hands on, but in any event…the plane was loaded with things the US wanted. There is no doubt that the Russians did send GPS jammers to confuse American satellite-guided bombs, night vision goggles, special anti-tank missiles, and Russian advisors.
...
Renowned reporter Joe Galloway reported that two Russian Generals, Gen. Vladimir Achalov, a former commander of airborne and rapid-reaction forces, and Gen. Igor Maltsev, a leading expert in air defense systems were in Baghdad up until 6 days before the war. During their “visit” they were photographed being given medals by Iraqi Defence Minister Sultan Hashim Akhmed. Other smiley photographs include the two Russian Generals standing with head of the General Staff of the Iraqi Army Izzat Ibragim between them. Upon their return to Russia, the generals were asked why they went on a “last-chance” diplomatic mission. They replied, “We didnt fly to Baghdad to drink coffee.” One wonders if all the elements of the story were proven true, could the claim of “special weapons” being moved out be less true than the other elements.
...

www.newmediajournal.us...



Then we have the several Russian high ranking defectors all who said Russia provided Saddam with WMD and plans to remove those WMD if the west ever got close to them. In communist Rumania that plan was called Sarindar.
www.victoryinstitute.net...

But most people these days would rather let the issue die "believing there were no WMD" than to actually find the truth about it.

To remind some people what former Russian high ranking officers told us about Iraq's WMD.

Washington Times | October 2, 2003
By Ion Mihai Pacepa

On March 20, Russian President Vladimir Putin denounced the U.S.-led
"aggression" against Iraq as "unwarranted" and "unjustifiable." Three
days later, Pravda said that an anonymous Russian "military expert" was
predicting that the United States would fabricate finding Iraqi weapons
of mass destruction. Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov immediately
started plying the idea abroad, and it has taken hold around the world
ever since.

As a former Romanian spy chief who used to take orders from the Soviet
KGB, it is perfectly obvious to me that Russia is behind the evanescence
of Saddam Husseins weapons of mass destruction. After all, Russia
helped Saddam get his hands on them in the first place. The Soviet Union
and all its bloc states always had a standard operating procedure for
deep sixing weapons of mass destruction ? in Romanian it was codenamed
"Sarindar, meaning "emergency exit." I implemented it in Libya. It was
for ridding Third World despots of all trace of their chemical weapons
if the Western imperialists ever got near them. We wanted to make sure
they would never be traced back to us, and we also wanted to frustrate
the West by not giving them anything they could make propaganda with.

All chemical weapons were to be immediately burned or buried deep at
sea. Technological documentation, however, would be preserved in
microfiche buried in waterproof containers for future reconstruction.
Chemical weapons, especially those produced in Third World countries,
which lack sophisticated production facilities, often do not retain
lethal properties after a few months on the shelf and are routinely
dumped anyway. And all chemical weapons plants had a civilian cover
making detection difficult, regardless of the circumstances.

The plan included an elaborate propaganda routine. Anyone accusing
Moammar Gadhafi of possessing chemical weapons would be ridiculed. Lies,
all lies! Come to Libya and see! Our Western left-wing organizations,
like the World Peace Council, existed for sole purpose of spreading the
propaganda we gave them. These very same groups bray the exact same
themes to this day. We always relied on their expertise at organizing
large street demonstrations in Western Europe over America's
"war-mongering" whenever we wanted to distract world attention from the
crimes of the vicious regimes we sponsored.
...

www.casi.org.uk...

What a coincidence that we did find tons of documents dealing with the construction of WMD...the same thing Russian high ranking defectors said we would find... BTW, part of the deal that was made with Saddam after the first Gulf War included the fact that his regime should have destroyed all documents dealing with WMD, which they didn't.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Instead of the rants why don't you just show us all proof of what WMD's have been found in Iraq.??

Even Clinton wont dare say they found any..

Your words do NOT equal PROOF...

reply to post by Nephi1337


only the united states is expected to wage war on a country, then build them back better. how many civilians would be killed by the iranians?

reply to post by Bigslick


Iran would probably kill their share of civilians to. Because they to would meat resistance from the public as well, no just the military.

No sovereign country likes to be governed by a outsider. Or told by a outsider how they should run their country. The US and its population is by far the best example. No nation in the world fears a attack more then US. Not even the US would like to be governed by a out side force on how they should conduct their business. They would like to have that privilege them selves.

The US have built a military force that gives them the ability to force others to do as they are told.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
" After all, Russia helped Saddam get his hands on them in the first place."

Pics or it didn't happen

You do realize that it was the Americans who gave chemical weapons to Saddam so that he would wage war against Iran, right? This was the American plan ever since the Shah started shying away from American domination. The Iranian revolution took place in 1979, which the Americans did not expect to even occur. When it became obvious that massive amounts of US oil resources would be in the hands of a strong, nationalist country with strong anti-American views, the Americans schemed a path of war for the middle east. They set Iraq and Iran up for war that would cripple their forces and kill millions, just so American forces can walk right in later and assume control easily. This is why Rumsfeld gave Saddam chemical weapons. Saying Russia did it is complete misinformation discrediting common information.

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


Dimitri, I seem to recall both the Soviets and the US helping Iraq in their fight against Iran. It seems both nations found the new Persian state a bit over the top.

And it was only Iraq who was in the mood and geographical position to take the fight to them.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
" After all, Russia helped Saddam get his hands on them in the first place."

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
Pics or it didn't happen

When it became obvious that massive amounts of US oil resources would be in the hands of a strong, nationalist country with strong anti-American views

Meanwhile reality set's in.

Russian special envoy Viktor Posavulyuk meets Saddam Hussein

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/74c97755da85.jpg[/atsimg]
Source

This consistency of approach towards Iraq goes back to the late 1960's. In the 'sixties, the Soviet Union waged a fierce campaign for the hearts and minds of the Arab world. This was partly for ideological reasons, as a way of spreading Communism, and partly to create a superpower counterbalance to the good relations between the US and Israel.

Because of its size, strategic position, and oil reserves, Iraq was a particular target for Soviet influence. In 1972, the USSR signed a treaty of friendship and co-operation with Iraq which has set the tone for relations ever since.

But things have not always gone smoothly, notably when the Iran-Iraq War broke out in 1980. At first, Moscow stopped what had become a regular supply of arms to Baghdad, although shipments were resumed in 1982.

I see lots of Russian equipment. So who profited the most from the Iran Iraq war?

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
Saying Russia did it is complete misinformation discrediting common information.

This is true Dimitri, However the biggest supplier of conventional weapons to Iraq was the Soviets Union and later Russia and Saddam used them to kill hundreds as many more people than those chemical weapons ever did. I know many love to just single out the US but here is a comprehensive list of countries who supplied Iraq chemicals for those weapons.

Corporate Suppliers for Iraq's Weapons Programs

Britain, France, China, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain and the US!

I also noticed how you left out the very real fact that Iraq was just loaded with Soviet/Russian equipment. Everything from AKs, RPGs to T-72. etc etc etc...

You want pics?


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7765e267dae9.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/582360f16cfb.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8c721c6446eb.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by SLAYER69


No crap the Soviets and Russians sold lots of weapons to Saddam. I don't recall them ever selling WMD to Iraq, nor do I recall them invading Iraq on the pretense that they must eliminate their WMD threat (which the US created in the first place). It was the US envoy, lead by Rumsfeld, that clearly equipped Iraq with chemical weapons. This is my point.

I've also heard stories about Spetsnaz moving WMD around in Iraq before the 2003 invasion, but they were garbage rumors spread by US warmongers looking for blood and oil. Obviously blame the Russians, the US saw them as enemy scum for only 50 years or so before. The chemical weapons that Iraq had acquired and used in the 90s were dumped in the 90s. They were found rusted in abandoned bunker storage facilities during the 2003 campaign, exactly as the Iraqis said.

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


Here you go buddy some light reading.... enjoy.

The WikiLeaks Vindication of George W. Bush

Wired magazine's contributing editor Noah Shachtman - a nonresident fellow at the liberal Brookings Institution - researched the 400,000 WikiLeaked documents released in October. Here's what he found: "By late 2003, even the Bush White House's staunchest defenders were starting to give up on the idea that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. But WikiLeaks' newly-released Iraq war documents reveal that for years afterward, U.S. troops continued to find chemical weapons labs, encounter insurgent specialists in toxins and uncover weapons of mass destruction (emphasis added). ... Chemical weapons, especially, did not vanish from the Iraqi battlefield. Remnants of Saddam's toxic arsenal, largely destroyed after the Gulf War, remained. Jihadists, insurgents and foreign (possibly Iranian) agitators turned to these stockpiles during the Iraq conflict - and may have brewed up their own deadly agents."

In 2008, our military shipped out of Iraq - on 37 flights in 3,500 barrels - what even The Associated Press called "the last major remnant of Saddam Hussein's nuclear program": 550 metric tons of the supposedly nonexistent yellowcake. The New York Sun editorialized: "The uranium issue is not a trivial one, because Iraq, sitting on vast oil reserves, has no peaceful need for nuclear power. ... To leave this nuclear material sitting around the Middle East in the hands of Saddam ... would have been too big a risk."

Now the mainscream media no longer deem yellowcake - the WMD Bush supposedly lied about - a WMD.

reply to post by SLAYER69

"But WikiLeaks' newly-released Iraq war documents reveal that for years afterward, U.S. troops continued to find chemical weapons labs, encounter insurgent specialists in toxins and uncover weapons of mass destruction (emphasis added). ... Chemical weapons, especially, did not vanish from the Iraqi battlefield. Remnants of Saddam's toxic arsenal, largely destroyed after the Gulf War, remained. Jihadists, insurgents and foreign (possibly Iranian) agitators turned to these stockpiles during the Iraq conflict - and may have brewed up their own deadly agents."

This isn't news to me whatsoever. I already know about how some insurgent specialist improvised artillery shells into sarin gas IEDs.

This, however, had nothing to do with a current Iraqi chemical weapons program. Obviously they would still have some labs open with some secret chemical weapons element still operational for special purposes and dismantling procedures, but they dropped the general program during the 90s. Most of those improvised gas weapons used by insurgents were from common raids on Iraqi bunkers during the confusion of the invasion.

"The uranium issue is not a trivial one, because Iraq, sitting on vast oil reserves, has no peaceful need for nuclear power."

"Now the mainscream media no longer deem yellowcake - the WMD Bush supposedly lied about - a WMD"

Complete BS. Nuclear power is clean energy; if I was the leader of a country solely dependent on oil for energy, then I would pursue clean energy as an environmentally-friendly and more efficient alternative.

Yellow cake is nuclear fuel, it is not a weapon. Even if they had tons of refined uranium, it has nothing specifically to do with weapons. There seems to be a social stigma where people automatically view "nuclear" as "weapon" while ignoring its energy potential because of ignorance. Media plays this perception nicely, just look at the Iran situation.

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


Hundreds of lbs of yellow-cake were found after the FIRST Gulf War, and were supposed to be turned over to the inspectors by Saddam Hussein. Obviously he did not and instead continued to hide his goals for a nuclear program.

Yellow-cake can be refined at low levels for a Dirty bomb AKA a radiological weapon...

What is the definition of WMD anyway....

WMDs

A weapon of mass destruction (WMD) is a weapon that can kill and bring significant harm to a large number of humans (and other life forms) and/or cause great damage to man-made structures (e.g. buildings), natural structures (e.g. mountains), or the biosphere in general. The scope and application of the term has evolved and been disputed, often signifying more politically than technically. Coined in reference to aerial bombing with chemical explosives, it has come to distinguish large-scale weaponry of other technologies, such as chemical, biological, radiological, or nuclear.