Cracking an eggshell?

G.A.G. has sent me some pretty thorough information and has agreed to let me post it:

AN ASSESSMENT OF
THE GEOTHERMAL RESOURCES OF INDIANA
BASED ON EXISTING GEOLOGIC DATA


Tracy L. Vaught

There is a lot of information in this 38-page pdf file about the geological structure of Indiana that I am still trying to digest.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by Agarta

First of all, thank you for listening!

An aquifer is basically an area of porous rock that contains water. They are pretty common; this one is special only because it is huge and because it lies under a fairly arid region. It does indicate an area of reduced capacity to contain stress, because the porous nature indicates the rock could break easier.

The western movement of the fault line I mentioned is probably limited to Arkansas, and therefore wouldn't reach the Ogallala Aquifer region. Essentially what seems to be happening is that an area close to the New Madrid Fault Line is being 'fracked', meaning hydraulic pressure is being used to separate and form cracks in the bedrock to release natural gas. This causes two problems: firstly, it is cracking open rock layers and reducing the capacity of those rock layers to withstand stresses, and secondly, the release of the natural gas is changing the pressures which the rock is exposed to below ground. No one can really calculate the result; the variables are simply too numerous and mostly unknown. But the increasing swarms of earthquakes in the area are an indication that movement is occurring inside the rock layers.

This area, as I mentioned, is close to the New Madrid Fault Line (in that area, it basically runs under the Mississippi River). We know that there are stresses accumulating along the New Madrid, as these are responsible for the occasional earthquakes felt in the area. A release of energy in one location will affect stresses in other areas of the crust, and we do know that a shift in pressures this close to an existing fault line will affect that particular fault line. Every horizontal fault line has areas of instability extending from the main line, where rocks are bent with the movement of the fault line boundary plates, and the New Madrid is no exception. We may definitely be fracking into rock which is part of one of these stress lines. So the western extension I spoke about is pretty much contained (I believe) far to the east of the Ogallala Aquifer. Even if it did extend far enough west to affect it, it would simply extend rapidly through the area, probably with little actual seismic damage, due to the inherent weakness of the rock layers in that area.
Hope that answered your question.

TheRedneck

Sorry I only wanted to quot a small portion of your post to avoid taking up space I apologize I don't know how.
There are multiple sources that state over the last two decades there is no significant stress build up on the New Madrid which put the quakes directly on the Fracking.
www.jsonline.com...
www.sciencedaily.com...
www.purdue.edu...

The statements that there is not enough pressure to create a major earthquake in this area is true. However IF we experience a pole shift, the torque of the Earths crust may be more than what is needed.

Here is a video on the New Madrid:

www.youtube.com...

Here is why I am concerned with the central midwest.





Now you can see the New Madrid fault tremor radius extends over the "midwest fault" as I call it (I can't find what it is called by the scientific community as it is so small, more like a crack). If the pressure is enough to release the pressure on this fault you can see it goes directly into the aquifer. This aquifer has dropped in water level by 150 feet in some places making it a hollow chamber covering the entire midwest. Would it be safe to assume this could cause a collapse of this aquifer? Causing massive damage.

reply to post by Agarta


I have a question and I am asking this as someone who knows little about this. "Haven't had time to do homework" .
With all the precipitation our area has had, wouldn't that take up alot of that space with the snow melt and the rain that has fallen?

There are a lot of new and very large aqueducts being constructed throughout the midwest. Most of the aquifers topside gather points are by large cities and their rain/snow runoffs are being redirected to large rivers for down stream flow ie the Missouri, the North Platte, etc. Very little ground water makes it to the Aquifer. Under Lincoln Nebraska there are a number of dry "tunnels" that have been connected to buildings like the State Capital,State Office Building, and the Masonic Lodges(Sesostris and Scottish Right). There were also eye witness accounts of Bush being in Lincoln on 9/11 which would mean a connection tunnel to Omaha. But this is a topic for another thread. They say it is to alleviate the possibility of flood but I think the are draining the Aquifer and converting it to something else.

reply to post by Agarta

There are multiple sources that state over the last two decades there is no significant stress build up on the New Madrid which put the quakes directly on the Fracking.

Actually, two of your sources state there has been no measurable strain along the New Madrid Fault Line.

Seth Stein, a co-author of the paper and professor of earth and planetary sciences at Northwestern University, said that Global Positioning System measurements taken in the past two decades have found no significant strain in the New Madrid area.

Source: www.jsonline.com...

"The New Madrid faults in the central U.S., for example, had three to four large events during 1811-12, and perhaps a few more in the past thousand years. This led scientists to believe that more were on the way," Stein said. "However, high-precision Global Positioning System (GPS) measurements in the past two decades have found no significant strain in the New Madrid area. The China results imply that the major earthquakes at New Madrid may be ending, as the pressure will eventually shift to another fault."

Source: www.sciencedaily.com...

And the third says something similar:

Andrew Freed, co-author of the paper and an associate professor of earth and atmospheric sciences at Purdue, said with no discernable motions at the surface to explain how the requisite crustal stresses could have built up in this area, these stresses must be left over from past tectonic processes that are no longer active.

Source: www.purdue.edu...

Strain is movement of a material resulting from stress. A material may undergo stress without showing signs of strain, as long as the stress is below that amount which the material can withstand. For example, hanging a weight on the end of a chain creates stress in the steel links which resist the gravitational force of the weight. The links, however, will not move as long as the stress is within safety limits. If the stress increases beyond the capability of the steel, then strain will exhibit itself as deformation in the links, quickly leading to failure of the chain.

The absence of strain may actually indicate that another earthquake is imminent. As long as the plates are moving relative to one another, that strain is relieving the stress, preventing it from building up. It is when the plates do not move that stress can accumulate to the point that it can rupture the fault line, leading to a sudden release of energy along with movement (strain) to relieve the stress.

We simply have no way to know how much stress is being held at this time by the rock in the area. Your third link states this fact:

"Unfortunately, this stored stress is invisible to us, and the usual methods of measuring strain and deformation to evaluate a spot's potential for an earthquake may not apply to this region," Calais said. "Under these conditions, once an earthquake occurs on a given fault, it’s done; but this also means that other faults in the region that appear quiet today may still be triggered."

Source: www.purdue.edu...

Now as to the aquifer...

You may be right; I have said many times that I am not an earthquake expert, only that I have twenty years experience in design, which includes understanding and working with stress in materials. If there were a void which was help up by internal pressure, yes, a release of that pressure would serve to aid a collapse of the roof of the void. I don't see where that is the case with this aquifer, however. As I understand things, it is not a cavernous void filled with water, but a large area of porous rock containing water within the pores. I also do not see how that water reserve could be under much pressure, either, without showing some distinct signs. If it were under such pressure, I would expect to see geysers or at the very least large inland lakes with no obvious inlet/outlet. I would also expect any water wells in that area to be Artesian (the water level, once drilled, is higher than the land level). I do not see indications of such.

If the water is not under high pressure and is contained within rock strata pores, then the removal of the water might allow the rock to become more brittle, but I do not see how it would cause it to become unable to support its own weight, which is what would be needed for a collapse. My major concern with the New Madrid Fault line (and the associated spur apparently undergoing seismic activity in Arkansas) is a pressure release from below. The Deepwater Horizon spill caused several months of pressure release with the output being estimated at 70,000 psi. The drilling platform was destroyed, so no additional material could be pumped back in during that time to replace the pressurized liquid/gas that was escaping. In the fracking happening in Arkansas, natural gas under pressure is being withdrawn without anything put back in to replace it. Both are changing the pressure within the areas containing the hydrocarbons, and this release of pressure may be releasing some of the forces that were holding the two plate boundaries together.

There was no mention of man-made adjustments to underground pressure systems in the reports from China; I seriously doubt that there was much of it going on, however, given that China's technology has only recently become advanced enough to allow for such. So we have two different things going on: In China, the process is natural; a sudden shift (strain) in one area releases the stress, which then causes that stress to accumulate in another area until it slips and releases more stress again.

In the Midwest, we have no indication of strain, so stresses are not being released. We do know that the Mid-Atlantic rift is still active and is still applying pressure (stress) to the plates on either side of it. We also know that humans have been releasing pressure at specific points. The question is not whether there is stress; the 70,000 psi in the Gulf of Mexico (at the end of the New Madrid Fault Line) shows this clearly. The question is, what will be the result of specific reductions in stress at specific locations combined with the ongoing stresses from natural crust movements?

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


Thank you for the explanation. I think I understand now. I understood the fracking and the events in Guy. I've been involved from the beginning I just wanted to see the possible continuation. I thought that if one fault shifts it changes the pressure on other faults as the land mass changes. The possibility of the more central fault line would be effected causing a "domino" effect with fault lines across the country leading to the San An. My worry was/is not that it would release the water as much as the brittle fracturing throughout the region of shallow top layer

P.S. I apologize for interchanging the words stress and strain. Not knowing the difference was my problem there thank you.

reply to post by Agarta

I'm glad I could help.

The San Andreas is my concern as well. I explained this on the radio show, but for those who missed it:

The pressure from the rift zones is pressing east and west on the North American continent. If one follows the St. Lawrence down to the Great Lakes and connects that to the New Madrid, one would notice that the actual fault is curving, giving it a northeast-southwest direction. A westward force on such a fault would cause the eastern half to try and slip southwestward and the western side to try to slip northeastward. Now, if one looks at the San Andreas, it is running northwest-southeast, so an eastward force would try to force the western edge southeastward and the eastern edge northwestward (this is the slip direction we already see on the San Andreas).

Combine both pressures should the New Madrid join with the St. Laurence, and the western half of the North American Plate is experiencing an overall northward push, intensifying the amount of stress on the San Andreas. Instead of relieving stress, a break along the New Madrid would actually increase the stress on the San Andreas.

P.S. I apologize for interchanging the words stress and strain. Not knowing the difference was my problem there thank you.

No problem. If I had a dime for everyone who got those two mixed up during my lifetime.... let's just say I'd be retired instead of unemployed.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
G.A.G. has sent me some pretty thorough information and has agreed to let me post it:

AN ASSESSMENT OF
THE GEOTHERMAL RESOURCES OF INDIANA
BASED ON EXISTING GEOLOGIC DATA


Tracy L. Vaught

There is a lot of information in this 38-page pdf file about the geological structure of Indiana that I am still trying to digest.

TheRedneck

Thankyou Mr. "Neck", for acknowledgements and you have a fascinating "knack" for thread construction. I would like to add that within the pdf you so kindly helped me upload, is found evidence of subterrainian water that is warmer than would normally be expected in this part of the continent. Granted, it is only in a couple of locations, and warmer water does not automatically signify igneous or volcanic activity present. That said, it is the locations of the wells that this occurred along with the fact there is a basaltic lava "plug" located beneath the area of Pulaski county, and an anomoly in Newton county, where the underlying bedrock has been thrust upward under "extreme" high heat, suggested to me that there is more going on underneath our feet that just, the New Madrid Fault. While continuing in my quest to find out more, I discovered that West Virginia had an eruption in in the pre-historic past, leaving ash deposits as far west as "eastern" Indiana. Ok, interesting. Then I bumped into information, discussing "eight cratons, in a linear fashion, basically following the 38th parallel in the midwestern U.S.". The first time I read about this it mentioned from "southern Ohio, Illinois and Missouri (did not say Indiana in this article), 3 of which were reletively close to one another in Missouri.
Turns out after further review, two of these have evidence indicating "impact" crated, and at least a couple have been associated with igneous activity(on page 5 of this thread someone mentioned "hicks Dome"), is one of them. Now the New Madrid seismic zone has that moniker for a reason, because of New Madrid Tennessee, and its proximity to the "epicenters" of the quakes of 1811 and 1812.
Now I dont "know" anything, but Evidence is mounting that along with the north/south attitude of the New Madrid faultine, there appears to be an ancient volcanic chain(possibly),running in an east/west direction from West Virginia to at least Missouri. There is more to consider as this is ongoing research for me and I "reserve the right to change my mind, at any time". The Kankakee Arch and the Cincinnati Arch is what I am looking at right now, and how they may affect my current " observations". specific links available upon further request g.a.g.

Originally posted by G.A.G.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
G.A.G. has sent me some pretty thorough information and has agreed to let me post it:

AN ASSESSMENT OF
THE GEOTHERMAL RESOURCES OF INDIANA
BASED ON EXISTING GEOLOGIC DATA


Tracy L. Vaught

There is a lot of information in this 38-page pdf file about the geological structure of Indiana that I am still trying to digest.

TheRedneck

Thankyou Mr. "Neck", for acknowledgements and you have a fascinating "knack" for thread construction. I would like to add that within the pdf you so kindly helped me upload, is found evidence of subterrainian water that is warmer than would normally be expected in this part of the continent. Granted, it is only in a couple of locations, and warmer water does not automatically signify igneous or volcanic activity present. That said, it is the locations of the wells that this occurred along with the fact there is a basaltic lava "plug" located beneath the area of Pulaski county, and an anomoly in Newton county, where the underlying bedrock has been thrust upward under "extreme" high heat, suggested to me that there is more going on underneath our feet that just, the New Madrid Fault. While continuing in my quest to find out more, I discovered that West Virginia had an eruption in in the pre-historic past, leaving ash deposits as far west as "eastern" Indiana. Ok, interesting. Then I bumped into information, discussing "eight cratons, in a linear fashion, basically following the 38th parallel in the midwestern U.S.". The first time I read about this it mentioned from "southern Ohio, Illinois and Missouri (did not say Indiana in this article), 3 of which were reletively close to one another in Missouri.
Turns out after further review, two of these have evidence indicating "impact" crated, and at least a couple have been associated with igneous activity(on page 5 of this thread someone mentioned "hicks Dome"), is one of them. Now the New Madrid seismic zone has that moniker for a reason, because of New Madrid Tennessee, and its proximity to the "epicenters" of the quakes of 1811 and 1812.
Now I dont "know" anything, but Evidence is mounting that along with the north/south attitude of the New Madrid faultine, there appears to be an ancient volcanic chain(possibly),running in an east/west direction from West Virginia to at least Missouri. There is more to consider as this is ongoing research for me and I "reserve the right to change my mind, at any time". The Kankakee Arch and the Cincinnati Arch is what I am looking at right now, and how they may affect my current " observations". specific links available upon further request g.a.g.

edit on 21-2-2011 by G.A.G. because: mistake

Oh yes, I am sorry I forgot to mention that Hicks Dome Is Very, very close to New Madrid Tennessee (in the grand scheme of things), just sayin'

reply to post by TheRedneck


Thanks - I will definitely be checking the links out this evening when I have more time.

I live in N. Indiana and this is of interest to me.

reply to post by crazydaisy


I too used to live in Northern Indiana, and spent alot of time at the beach on the shores of Lake Michigan. The dunes are simply gorgous! The Kentland "impact" structure, is not far from you. The basaltic "plug" is roughly 29km in "circumference", and is below the surfacial "glacial till" that covers Pulaski county. Gold, diamonds and other minerals attributed to igneous formation and magma transport have been found throughout the state. Some scientists claim that "any/all" gold and diamonds found in your state, were transported and deposited by the glaciers, that gouged through the gold and diamond bearing mountains in Canada, as they progressed southward. I believe that some of it probably was deposited by glacial activiy, but not all.

This is a very interesting, thought provoking thread. A few pages back there was mention of the possibility of the New Madrid fault connecting with the St. Lawrence River fault which I was reminded of today when I heard about this small quake in Ontario. Link www.cbc.ca...

Could there be a connection?

Originally posted by jest3r
This is a very interesting, thought provoking thread. A few pages back there was mention of the possibility of the New Madrid fault connecting with the St. Lawrence River fault which I was reminded of today when I heard about this small quake in Ontario. Link www.cbc.ca...

Could there be a connection?

Very interesting find! Thankyou for bringing that to our attention. Makes me wonder about all the ancient volcanic activity, that took place up in Canada. I do feel somehow everything is interconnected somehow. I wonder if this Quake occurred any where near a mining district. (not to infer mining activities any way contributed to it). There was a thread about Michigan having a "crack" open up...

reply to post by G.A.G.


I'll have to check into oil or gas wells that may be in that area, however there is a large salt mine under Windsor which isn't too far away. That salt mine has been there a very long time and there hasn't been any past earthquakes related to it's operation as far as I know.

Originally posted by G.A.G.

Originally posted by jest3r
This is a very interesting, thought provoking thread. A few pages back there was mention of the possibility of the New Madrid fault connecting with the St. Lawrence River fault which I was reminded of today when I heard about this small quake in Ontario. Link www.cbc.ca...

Could there be a connection?

Very interesting find! Thankyou for bringing that to our attention. Makes me wonder about all the ancient volcanic activity, that took place up in Canada. I do feel somehow everything is interconnected somehow. I wonder if this Quake occurred any where near a mining district. (not to infer mining activities any way contributed to it). There was a thread about Michigan having a "crack" open up...

Yes there was a crack that opened up in Michigan's upper peninsula . Very unusual too.

reply to post by bluemooone2


I can see a "Great chasm" opening up, from North Michigan to the Atlantic ocean, and lava shooting hundreds of feet into the air... "if all the stars line up" (JK) All kiddin' aside it is very kind of you to pull up the Michigan "crack" thread, thank you "bluemoone2"

reply to post by bluemooone2


I remember hearing about that crack when it happened and seeing the pictures, especially the trees splayed apart where the ground had lifted, was incredible. At the end of the video one of the announcers says something about it being the first ever earthquake on the penninsula. Let's hope it's the last.

I would like to star and flag this post but not sure how to do it yet. I'll figure it out.

In light of the recent Japanese 8.9 quake and the corresponding Russian volcanic activity, I have studied the Pacific rim in the same light I started this thread in: stresses in the crust. The pictorial I made is below:

I am showing the Pacific rift in red (it probably extends farther south than shown), the stresses from it in yellow, the "Ring of Fire" in orange, and the forces on this fault zone in purple. A subduction fault is where the fault line is running at right angles to the stresses (as can be seen at the location of the Japanese quake shown by a black cross) and a slip fault would be where the stresses are running in the same direction as the stresses, as in the south edge of Alaska. In between, the greater the angle, the more subduction and the less slip... as describes the San Andreas and the New Madrid.

As you can see, this is a subduction event, which is why it generated a tsunami. Alao a subduction zone is the Cascadia Mega-Thrust fault zone. The New Madrid and San Andreas are combination zones.

The effects of this quake are that an area of stress has been relieved. That release of energy would be expected to have increased the stress to either side of the fault where it occurred, meaning a substantial number of aftershocks, some of appreciable intensity, are to be expected along that fault line (and this does appear to be happening). On the other side of the rift, however, along the US West Coast, it would be expected that the stresses would be reduced. This reduction would lead to a decreased chance of a subduction occurring along the San Andreas or Cascadia.

Reduced subduction stress does not necessarily mean reduced chance of a quake, however. In a slip quake, the two plates are locked together by the subduction stresses, preventing a slip. If that pressure is released, then the friction between the plates, which is a direct function of the tangential pressure, would be reduced. Reduced friction would lead to an easier ability to experience a slip.

Think of it like two pieces of sandpaper. If you press them together hard, it is difficult to slide them past each other. But if there is no pressure holding them together, they can slide easier. It's the same principle.

Yellowstone is a different story. Yellowstone is a cauldera, a weakness in the crust which allows heat from below to move upward through through the crust. A reduced amount of pressure on the sides of this vent would make it easier for liquids to move through it, just like pinching a tube makes it harder for a material to flow through it. If the tectonic pressure on the area of Yellowstone was helping to pinch the vent to some extent, that pressure and therefore the resulting pinching effect would be reduced, making it easier for liquids to rise through the crust.

I really have no idea if this is sufficient to make a difference. I only know that it would appear that this quake would increase the likelihood of tectonic activity in the area to some degree. Whether or not that degree of change is appreciable is a matter for debate.

I see no immediate effect on the New Madrid from this event. That could change depending on any future events... if, for instance, it led to a future slip in the San Andreas, that would increase the sideways pressure on the New Madrid and increase the chance of a New Madrid event. But until future events happen, there are far too many unknown variables for me to even hazard a guess. For the time being, I would expect the crust between Japan and the New Madrid to simply absorb the new stress levels.

Just thought everyone would like an update on any possible consequences.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


Thank you Redneck. Not that I know anything about plate tectonic's, but it makes sense with the little bit that I do know. I will have to go back and re read your other posts.

Has anyone been watching the Mediterranean?

Here is today; 50 earthquakes in 8hrs 42min


Last two weeks; 516 on the map


www.emsc-csem.org...

don't forget there is a super volcano there as well.

www.iceagenow.com...