School in patriotic storm after principal allows students to opt out of the Pledge of Allegiance

And the people that are supposedly so offended--veterans. Maybe they should realize that they're not only fighting for the rights THEY think people should have, but ALL rights afforded to an American. Forcing children to recite a pledge and chant alliegance to their country reeks of Nazi Germany, with a extra dose of nationalism and facism.

Originally posted by DerbyCityLights
reply to post by stephinrazin

 

Mind control techniques? Are you kidding? I served in the military and I love my country and pledge my allegiance daily. I love my country, not my government. If you don't love the country and are unwilling to pledge your allegiance, the become an expat and renounce your citizenship. You can then apply for political asylum to what ever country you want and they will work with you to help you integrate into their society providing they approve your request for asylum.

Of which they would then have to pledge allegiance to THAT country that they've moved to.
All countries require a pledge of allegiance when swearing in new citizens.
So it's not something people can escape from, so why not just swear allegiance to your homeland and your fellow countrymen? Makes sense to me.

reply to post by DimensionalDetective

I would like to get ATSers take on this controversial issue.

I think this doesn't need to be as complicated as some people are making it. If you don't want to say the pledge, don't. Nobody's compelling anyone that I'm aware of. Personally, I stopped reciting it in junior high. No "permission slips" were necessary. I never felt the need to tell my parents about it, let alone ask for their permission. I simply stopped reciting it. Nobody ever said anything. It's possible noone ever even noticed.

Why? Because I stood when everybody else stood. It just wasn't important to make a big deal out of it. I chose not to recite, so I didn't. I saw no benefit to throwing a fit and sulking in the corner to "announce" to everyone that I wasn't reciting. It's possible to exhibit a modicum of decorum for these things without actually participating in them.

permission slips allowing students to opt out of saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

This is silly. Nobody needs permission to not participate, no formal "opting out" is required, and I question the motivation and understanding of anyone suggesting to students that they need a formal process to enable their own personal decisions.

If you don't want to do something, don't do it.

Why so complicated?

This is a lose lose situation, in this day and age of making everybody happy, making sure we dont make anybody feel bad.

So if he dosent send the letter, then tomy tells is mom and pas, and they call the school, then the news, my kid was forced to without is consent to do it.

And now they do, to make sure that dosent happen, well then moma joe , or papa lou calls the news and complains lol.

thanks for coming, im here till wednesday eheheh

The Pledge of Allegiance is NOT a pledge of fealty to the scum who have hijacked our government, but rather a pledge to support the IDEALS on which this great nation is based. If it were a Hitlerian "loyalty oath" I would not recite it nor allow my children to either.

However, as I said, it is a pledge to support the ideas represented by the flag:

"to the Republic" - Is there any doubt that, as flawed as it may be, our system of government is the best in the world?
"one nation under God" - whoever your God may be. Doesn't mandate Christ, Mohammed, Krishna, etc.
"Indivisible" - We stand as ONE, for the ideals of freedom, liberty, and democracy.
"With liberty and justice for all." - Who could possibly disagree with that statement?

IMHO, if you don't want to pledge allegiance to the ideals this great republic was founded upon, then you can GTFO. Maybe you should go to China, or Iran, or any one of a number of countries where I'm sure you will be able to access any website in the world and freely express your opinions without fear of imprisonment or persecution.

The Pledge of Allegiance was created by a bona fide Socialist. I thought we're supposed to hate Socialists right now (according to the right)?

I wonder why anyone from either side would defend forcing any purely symbolic ritual upon an individual.

Originally posted by DerbyCityLights
However, if you don't believe in the Pledge of Allegiance then why do you live in America?

Because it pledges allegiance to a symbol and goes on to attach that symbol to fanciful follies, having nothing to do with our actual country:

One nation, indivisible
Under God (which was added in 1954)
Liberty and Justice for all

How many of those are true? And how can a pledge be SO ingrained in our minds to the love of country that we'd ignore what it actually says? Apparently, the indoctrination worked on some people.

And I was born here. By my birth, I am a US citizen and am entitled to every right by that birth. Including the freedom of the First Amendment. I say again: People do not REALLY want to live in a Free Society... else they would defend the rights of those with whom they disagree.

IMO, The Pledge of Allegiance is a nationalistic form of brainwashing and indoctrination (not saying it's always successful, but that's its purpose). The reason they make them start so young is that that's when indoctrination is most effective. If they started when the kids were old enough to understand the meaning, many would give it a second thought and be a bit more critical about it.

Here is my version, seems more true to me.

"I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the divided slaves of america. And to the television, that tells me what to think, with liberty, and justice, for those that can afford a high priced attorney."

Originally posted by OldCorp
The Pledge of Allegiance is NOT a pledge of fealty to the scum who have hijacked our government, but rather a pledge to support the IDEALS on which this great nation is based. If it were a Hitlerian "loyalty oath" I would not recite it nor allow my children to either.

However, as I said, it is a pledge to support the ideas represented by the flag:

"to the Republic" - Is there any doubt that, as flawed as it may be, our system of government is the best in the world?
"one nation under God" - whoever your God may be. Doesn't mandate Christ, Mohammed, Krishna, etc.
"Indivisible" - We stand as ONE, for the ideals of freedom, liberty, and democracy.
"With liberty and justice for all." - Who could possibly disagree with that statement?

IMHO, if you don't want to pledge allegiance to the ideals this great republic was founded upon, then you can GTFO. Maybe you should go to China, or Iran, or any one of a number of countries where I'm sure you will be able to access any website in the world and freely express your opinions without fear of imprisonment or persecution.

So either pledge my allegiance or GTFO of the USA? No different from a tyrants tirade... "join me or die".

IMHO, if you don't like people not pledging their allegiance to the ideals this great republic was founded upon, then, you should GTFO. For the ideals this great nation was founded upon is the greatest advocate and protector of personal rights, opinions and choices. To tell those who do not pledge allegiance to GTFO goes against the very ideal that this country was founded upon.

Originally posted by OldCorp
The Pledge of Allegiance is NOT a pledge of fealty to the scum who have hijacked our government, but rather a pledge to support the IDEALS on which this great nation is based.

Um no. you are pledging yourself to the "republic for which it STANDS", not "for which it STOOD". This is plain English, dude, come on..

"to the Republic" - Is there any doubt that, as flawed as it may be, our system of government is the best in the world?

LOL yes! Patriotism or ignorance?

Crazy.

"one nation under God" - whoever your God may be. Doesn't mandate Christ, Mohammed, Krishna, etc.

The capitalization of the word God as a proper name makes it refer ONLY to the god of the Christians. Sorrry, but you are very wrong on this one.

"Indivisible" - We stand as ONE, for the ideals of freedom, liberty, and democracy.

Oh we do?

What country are you living in?

"With liberty and justice for all." - Who could possibly disagree with that statement?

You, by condemning people that don't do exactly what you tell them to in your demanding conquest for control. What you are supporting is the rape of liberty itself.

IMHO, if you don't want to pledge allegiance to the ideals this great republic was founded upon, then you can GTFO.

LOL

Of whose country?

Yours?

Nope, OURS, sorry.

You can't tell anyone to leave because you don't agree with their exercise of free speech and then preach that you support liberty.

Maybe you should go to China, or Iran, or any one of a number of countries where I'm sure you will be able to access any website in the world and freely express your opinions without fear of imprisonment or persecution.

Right, because if there is one thing I know about those countries, it's that they don't make their citizens blindly recite a pledge to "their country" to keep the citizens loyal and sheepish.

From personal experiece, I believe you should not be forced to say the pledge. I am very rational to discuss this with any that disagree, but I will state my reasons which follow:

1)Why force someone who has many years ahead of them to decide truthfully how they feel to make a "pledge", a promise, to their country?

Would you want to make a promise to someone you didn't even know without knowing the stipulations?

2)This is the land of the free is it not? Whether you want to eat white bread or wheat, it's your choice (as long as you aren't allergic of course).

It shouldn't matter the reason for not saying the pledge, that is your right.

3)Don't kids already have very little rights given to them? Do you really want to force anymore crap down their/our throats?

Growing up I feel we should have as many rights as any other living person. But instead, we lose all our freedoms inside the school the minute we step on their property.
We cannot speak freely, we cannot do as we wish, we can't go where we please.
Many adults and children may say it's good for us, that we need to learn and have those experiences. Yet Hitler was hunted down like a dog for many similarities.

The only experiences I remember are being bullied and being the quiet kid everyone thought was a sociopath. Don't limit children as to what age they are, you're just limiting potential.

reply to post by Xen0m0rpH


The answers you will get to your questions:

Flags. Freedoms. Founding Fathers. Troops.

And any other regurgitated American propaganda you can think of that prevents people from using the logical side of their brain somehow.

reply to post by Brood


Just because we've been doing it this way for [insert amount of time here] doesn't mean it's right.

I remember the days of my youth when I proudly stood in class and recited this pledge. I remember the times I would stand with pride as the Old Glory passed by in military processions during my time in the Corps. I remember well my blind loyalty and devotion to this symbol of our nation. I remember this well, and look back at my folly, now that I have educated myself on the history and traditions I was never taught in public schools.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America."

The flag bedecked with 50 Stars, each representing a new conquest, a people forced from their native land, stripped of their native ways, and left oblivious to their history. Vainly these stars are arranged on blue back ground as if heaven itself condoned the atrocities. Red bars over lay the pure field of white to show the purity has been drenched in blood as a sacrifice to mans greed.

"And to the republic for which it stands"

The commercial union of states, bound not by brotherhood, love of man, love of God, or anything pure in nature, but rather a code of commerce that strives to strip the natural resources of this earth for the benefit of the few at the cost of the many.

"One nation, Under God"

Arrogance to believe that the boundaries created by Man are of divine origin. Had such boundaries been part of the divine plan of creation, they would be there from the beginning, and no man would overcome them. So blind are men that they cannot see it is one world under God.

"Indivisible"

So to did the Egyptions think their Empire indivisible, and the Greeks, the Romans, The Byzantines, The Turks, The Germans, The Russians, and so to the Americans. It is folly to preach indivisability when time has time and again proven such ideas wrong.

"With Liberty"

Are you feeling the liberty these days my friends?

"And Justice"

There is no justice when it must be purchased. There is no justice in crimes against ones enslavement. There is no justice in being judged by a system which creates the infractions one is accused of. There is no justice in legislation without representation. Two parties do not represent the diversity of the American populace. Two parties are just more affordable for the buyers of legislators.

"For All"

We shall see.

I won't be saying such a pledge ever again. To do so is folly of the highest order.

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by OldCorp


If people are forced to pledge allegiance, we might as well be living in Iran. What you are proposing (forcing allegiance) is tyranny.

reply to post by DimensionalDetective


I fail to see why students should have to pledge their allegiance to a piece of cloth before starting a day of learning so I tend to agree with giving them an option to sit it out.

I will preface this first and foremost with an apology to any and all I might offend, by saying that I do not believe that myself or anyone, for that matter, should be FORCED to stand and pledge allegiance to a flag or country, and I do not feel that anyone should be condemned or punished for refusal to do so.

Agreed completely. The flag is just a symbol and it is what that flag is meant to stand for that counts. I also don't like that the pledge is done every single day in schools, that's just weird. Many people blame schools for indoctrination of one kind or another but at least every day in class they usually learn something new, the pledge is the same chant every morning. I'd much prefer them let the kids recite the Bill of Rights every day but even then it should be voluntary only

When I was in high school I never pledged the pledge, I just kinda mumbled along while everyone else said it and none of them were all that enthusiastic about it either. No one is going to betray the country based on whether or not they said this pledge, its pretty unimportant when it comes to schoolkids saying it.

I myself am English...if I were to move to America I would of course follow the laws and live in a way acceptible to society for the most part. I will stand up and defend that country if I feel the cause is just.

But my allegiance will always lie with England (and by extension Britain and the UK) so why should it be compulsory for me or indeed any children I may have as i have left school to say the pledge?

I can't really see what is so controversial And in response to veterans being upset over it....umm...there are no living veterans who fought solely for America (WW2 with the allie...vietnam for democracy...Afghanistan for f'reedom'). So there is no rason not pledging allegiance to one country should upset them.

reply to post by DimensionalDetective


This is....outrageous to say the least...

I havent done the pledge of allegiance since 5th grade when i began using the internet, when my mind blossomed, when i learned about the real America...

This track from Immortal Technique states clearly how i feel about America: "I love the place i live, but i hate the people in charge"

reply to post by 8fl0z


IT is one of the few rappers I can listen to. Good lyrics in his music.

Originally posted by DimensionalDetective
Now this is likely going to stir some massive debate.

I will preface this first and foremost with an apology to any and all I might offend, by saying that I do not believe that myself or anyone, for that matter, should be FORCED to stand and pledge allegiance to a flag or country, and I do not feel that anyone should be condemned or punished for refusal to do so.

If my feelings on this offend any of our miltary crew or elsewise, please accept my apologies, I am merely being honest. I do love the states, but I think my allegiance extends beyond country and seperatism, into an allegiance toward global humankind and the earth itself. Silly, I am sure, to most.

Now that the above is stated clearly from my own end, I would like to get ATSers take on this controversial issue.

Should children be forced to stand and pledge allegiance? Or should a child have the option of sitting it out, should they or their parents so decide to do so? Was this principal out of line for sending these slips home?

Let's hear, pros and con...

www.dai lymail.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

edit on 26-12-2010 by DimensionalDetective because: (no reason given)

Globalist?

Should my child be subjected to your belief system?

I'm just being honest here.

Honestly, should nationalists, secularists, and their kind shoot you in the face, or not? As long as we're all being honest I expect an honest answer, without hesitation...

Thanks.