School in patriotic storm after principal allows students to opt out of the Pledge of Allegiance

I don't think children should have to pledge allegience to anything. Especially since young kids cannot even comprehend what the words mean. Maybe older kids, should have the option to recite it, after they are taught what it means.

Originally posted by Gradius Maximus

So a person exercising their free speech rights by not reciting the pledge, somehow is disrespectful to those who have fought and died defending that freedom?

What am I your daddy? Yes - In my experience - A veteran would find that very disrespectful.

But lets be honest, I'll never do it. Surely though we can have compassion for those who are upset.

edit on 26-12-2010 by Gradius Maximus because: (no reason given)

As a combat vet I think people should have a choice whether or not to say a pledge.- thats what freedom is the right to choose.. NOT to blindly follow the state.. Especially not what its turned into today.. Next theyll be singing amerika uber alles.. Thats not what america was nor what america was meant to be.. The true america died long ago replaced by the new totalitarian states of amerika and nobody should be forced to pledge to that abomination..

Originally posted by TKDRL
I don't think children should have to pledge allegience to anything. Especially since young kids cannot even comprehend what the words mean. Maybe older kids, should have the option to recite it, after they are taught what it means.

Totally have to agree with you on this one. The pledge of allegiance starts at way too young of an age for the children to know what they are saying. And then it just grows on you throughout your schooling.
Sad thing is, if the school gives it up as an option, a lot of parents are still going to make their pre-teen children say it because that is how they were raised.

reply to post by Expat888


Do you not agree that there is an enormous lack of respect brewing in the coming generation?

A profound lack of gratitude? A gigantic expectation and a legion of grasping hands demanding the perks that come from the struggles of their ancestry?

I have to state my opinion...The pledge should be changed to suit the new america, but it should be expected to be spoken out of respect for all that has come before us, it should not be enforced, but it has to be expected.

I see too many children throwing away food and walking away from their families, writing graffiti on the walls.

Where is the respect?

reply to post by DerbyCityLights


What you personally love, and associate with the pledge is not the purpose it was created. IIt was created to foster a culture that believes in myths. Myths of republicanism, freedom, and equality. Reality is not that way at all. That is why I say mind control. Everyday for the first 16 years of my life I said this pledge. The reality that these myths do not exist, and that our government often does the opposite of these ideas is evident. Children have no filters, and so they believe the pledge. This enables the government the freedom to repeat rhetoric, and then do the opposite. I believed in myths until I was able to look with an unbiased view at reality. The people of the US, and all the good we have done has nothing to do with pledging allegiance to a state that does not represent us.

Does it matter that this pledge is Directed at a symbol, rather than the country itself?
You are pledging to the flag as a symbol of the US.

Just asking..

I was just reading up on a little history of this pledge, and had no idea it was written by a socialist.
From Wiki:

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855–1931), a Baptist minister, a Christian socialist, and the cousin of socialist utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850–1898).

seems we've been fighting about it ever since..
Maybe we should write a new pledge?

I always said it back in elementary school. Sometimes I just mumbled it..But I always stood up, and put the hand over the heart.

reply to post by Gradius Maximus


They lost respect long ago.. Now its whinge about this, whinge about that.. Theyve become soft wanting the state to provide for every need .. The rugged individualism and sense of responsibility that made the country what it was are long gone.. Maybe theyll understand more as the clampdown on them continues.. But I doubt it.. The generations today have forgotten that with freedom also comes responsibility.. They have no respect for anyone or anything.. Its sad to see it happen..

reply to post by DimensionalDetective

Should children be forced to stand and pledge allegiance? Or should a child have the option of sitting it out, should they or their parents so decide to do so? Was this principal out of line for sending these slips home?

Many state laws, as mentioned, *require* the pledge to be recited daily.

In your OP source, the following:

Children at the Edward Devotion School had reportedly not regularly recited the oath for at least five years, in spite of a state law requiring teachers to lead their classes in daily pledges.

Under Brookline school policy, the recitation can take place weekly.

It seems as though this school is public, not private; and local laws as well, effected the lee-way granted to this "Devotion" School.

Beth Kates, a former parent/teachers president and parent of an eighth-grade Devotion student, said: ‘I think it’s respectful to have a permission slip when you have such a diverse community.
‘We have over 30 countries represented at our school. I can understand the sensitivity as to whether or not people want their children to participate,’ she told the Boston Herald.

Now here is where I see a loop-hole in the way the Original Post is presented. If the students are from over 30 countries, and aren't US citizens, then why is there a reason to require the pledge for them?

Sarah Wunsch, an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union in Boston, said Mr Martinez went ‘a little astray’ with the slip.
But she congratulated him for informing children and parents that reciting the pledge was a ‘personal choice’ under the U.S. Constitution, adding: ‘Kids don’t lose their First Amendment rights when they walk in the school.'

I have to agree with ACLU lawyer here; but only for pointing out the differences in how state laws CAN contradict the Constitution....

Plus, it would also be helpful to know the age range of the students involved....with regard to the complexity/history, etc. associated with the discussion between parents/children on what the Pledge does...or doesn't mean....

Originally posted by Expat888
reply to post by Gradius Maximus

 

They lost respect long ago.. Now its whinge about this, whinge about that.. Theyve become soft wanting the state to provide for every need .. The rugged individualism and sense of responsibility that made the country what it was are long gone.. Maybe theyll understand more as the clampdown on them continues.. But I doubt it.. The generations today have forgotten that with freedom also comes responsibility.. They have no respect for anyone or anything.. Its sad to see it happen..

I am not american, but this post hits me hard, perhaps it is the cries of my ancestors who tried so hard to bring home something wonderful for their children - to see it tread upon like a dirty rug, the flag of our fathers.

The hard times will come again, and we will remember through the whispers of those who came before us.

The wisdom of the first fathers lives beneath the decadence and expectation.

The lion will soon awaken from its trance, and the world will remember why this group of human beings in the new world have so long been praised as the champions. Its written in our genetics to destroy tyranny.

That is why we are here.

reply to post by sonjah1

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, the Supreme Court ruled that requiring the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools violated the First and Fourteenth Amendments. The case grew out of West Virginia's passage of legislation requiring the pledge and flag-saluting. Lawmakers had intended them to be part of instruction on civics, history, and the Constitution, and they defined noncompliance as insubordination that was punishable by expulsion from school. Parents of expelled students were also subject to fines...

The Supreme Court found two constitutional violations. The state law violated the Fourteenth Amendment's requirement of due process and the First Amendment's requirements of religious freedom and free speech upon the state. At heart, said the Court, were the principles of freedom of thought and government by consent. Critically, the majority observed a right of individuals to be free from official pressure to state a particular opinion, including that they honor their government. The opinion declared that "no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."

Most states, in fact, still have decades-old laws relating to the pledge. Thirty-two states mention some form of school participation in their laws, while twenty states require students to recite it.

www.enotes.com...

States are going against their own government's ruling on the matter, and forcing children to pledge allegiance to the government... A little hypocritical eh?

Follow up to my post above:

The Edward Devotion School serves the vibrant Coolidge Corner neighborhood and is the largest of Brookline’s Pre-K to 8 schools, with a population of 716 students. It enjoys an international reputation: historically, it is the public school that President John F. Kennedy attended; academically, it welcomes students from all over the world, and socially, it reflects and respects human diversity. Devotion 3rd graders honor the memory and legacy of John F. Kennedy by engaging in a four-week study in collaboration with the JFK National Historic Site which culminates each year with students reading essays and poems about what JFK means to them.

I wonder what JFK would say? Did he pledge allegiance during his tenure?

AND

The system-wide programs offered at Devotion are the English Language Learner program with a high concentration of Hebrew speakers, and a Pre-K through 8 Therapeutic Learning Center for students who need intensive social and emotional supports.

One of the most diverse schools in Brookline, our Pre-K-8th grade population represents 38 countries (plus the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico) including Afghanistan, Austria, Benin, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Canada, Chile, China, Croatia, Cyprus, Ecuador, El Salvador, Eritrea, Ethiopia, France, Germany, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Hungary, India, Iran, Israel, Italy, Japan, Kenya, Korea, Libyan, Mexico, Peru, Poland, Russia, Slovakia, Spain, Switzerland, Thailand, the United Kingdom and Uzbekistan.

No wonder the US Pledge would be a moot point here....

www.brookline.k12.ma.us...:devotion-school-home&catid=65&Itemid=171

Still, the Pledge of Allegiance debate is relevant to public, general US schools, IMO....

reply to post by Gradius Maximus


Walked away from it 30+ years ago.. Returned to asia and use my japanese passport when travel now.. Was born in a camp when my parents were interned in wwII. Had grew up between the u.s and japan after even served in the u.s military did 4 tours in vietnam.. Saw the changes in the country.. Returned to asia and my roots.. Maybe one day people will remember their ancestors and return to the right path.. It may take a long time though.. True as you say some are starting to remember.. But many still are blind.. Time will tell..

I'm a veteran and not offended at all by this. You can force words, but you can't force the feelings behind them. If people don't truly believe in the words they are saying then they shouldn't say it. I have shifted further and further away from it myself, as the perception of America is vastly different than what is exhibited in practice.

The idea that someone who chooses not to say it should leave is ludicrous. For example, the students aren't even of age yet and have no means to survive on their own. If their parents think they don't have to say it, then that is the parents' choice and right to bring their child up how they wish.

I thought this was supposed to be America, where people are free to conduct themselves as they see fit, so long as they do not infringe on the liberty of others? I guess that doesn't count in this scenario, as anything short of pledging blind loyalty will not suffice.

is the Pledge of Allegiance America? NO.
is the Pledge of Allegiance the troops? no.
it is just like when they made you sing prays to god at school.
brain washing kids to be slaves to America the globe company.
you should be tout the bill of rights and the constitution.
but they are making you forget that.
and just say you will be a slave and die for America the globe company.
Stop standing up for there flag.
and stand up for YOUR flag.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


It truely is me that feels sorry for you. You seem to champion every liberal cause that appears on this site, with no regaurd for the country itself. A few things to explain my view then flame away to your hearts content.
1.) As a child, we placed our hand over our hearts and said the pledge every morning in school.
2.) We had a moment of silence every morning as well, some prayed, some did not, nothing was forced.
3.) We had an invocation before every sporting event, both in the locker room and in the stadium.
4.) We respected our elders and teachers, as well as each other.
5.) We respected our parents as well as their opinions of us.
6.) We learned about the world and our place in it, as well as how, why and what principles were used when our country was founded.
7.) We were punished when we did wrong, both in school and when we got home.
8.) We earned what we had, nothing was given to us.
Now in todays world let''s see what we have........
1.) You have rights as a child and more often than not don't say the pledge due to your liberal parents and teachers telling you how bad our country is. Seems most have forgotten what the country truely is.....it's its people, not it's government, nor its officials.
2.) No moment of silence, might be miconstrued as forced religion and not a seperation of state....pure idiocy when certain cultures not only are allowed and encouraged to pray, but it's taught as well in the name of multi culturalism......another way of stripping America of its identity.
3.) No invocations lest we upset someone of a different belief system, ets be tolerant of all except those that founded the countries beliefs at all cost.
4.) No respect for adults or each other as there are no consequences because.............kids have rights and need to express themselves as individuals..........yeah, that's working out just fine.
5.) No respect for parents, the youth don;t need to, at least that's what th school teaches them. Children today are being molded to do what they want.......not what is right or normal. Homosexual? Have a club and newsletter. Minority? Have a club and newsletter. Transgendered? Hard to believe at that age, but whatever, club and newsletter. Don't worry, the school will capitulate to your demands because the ACLU loves nothing more than to slap the norm and remind them by liberating them from money.
6.) Now they don't learn about the world, they learn how evil America is and how we should't be proud of our heritage. Instead we have commited all of the evils in the world and can only be saved by multiculturalism....in other words abandon our culture for that of other peoples and values all in the name of diversity and fairness.
7.) Now, forget punishment, again, kids have rights.......seems at times more than the parents, and they are taught this in school. It's no wonder so many are put on drugs, or end up in trouble, they don't realize there are consequences in real life.
8.) In todays instant gratifiction society, it seems nothing is truely worked for anymore and therefore not respected.
This is just a short rambling list I know, but in my opinion this once great country was much better off when it was based upon a common belief in doing the right thing and taking pride in ones self, family and country. It may seem old fashioned but our country was certainly better off then than it is now. Say what you will, but freedom is not achieved by not saying the pledge, nor by embracing every culture bit the one that made this country what it is. You say it's denying freedom by forcing them to say the pledge, what do you call it when you force a student to learn about something they and their parents find morally wrong? Just wondering.........................

reply to post by adifferentbreed


Notice how every single generation thinks their generation was way better than the current generation? It is called selective memory, the united states has been going down the tubes for a long long time. When you get old you hold to pleasant memories, and think about the "good old days", that is how it goes. There was just as much hatred, rape murder and any other bad thing you can think of in your "good old days", the difference is back then you were living in the moment and let the bad crap go by without giving it a second thought.

You are right. Freedom is not achieved by not saying the pledge. But a restriction in freedom is achieved by forcing people to say it.

The pledge is not beneficial in my opinion. At least that is what I see. I know you think it would help shape up these kids nowadays.

I have pride in my family. I believe there are great people in this country. Saying the pledge changes nothing about that. Im not saying we should ban the pledge. Simply give children the opportunity to make their own decisions. Im not going to tell my child to avoid saying the pledge. But I will let them know they do not have to.

Originally posted by DaveWx3
You are right. Freedom is not achieved by not saying the pledge. But a restriction in freedom is achieved by forcing people to say it.

The pledge is not beneficial in my opinion. At least that is what I see. I know you think it would help shape up these kids nowadays.

I have pride in my family. I believe there are great people in this country. Saying the pledge changes nothing about that. Im not saying we should ban the pledge. Simply give children the opportunity to make their own decisions. Im not going to tell my child to avoid saying the pledge. But I will let them know they do not have to.

OMG OMG Encouraging people to be free thinkers! Free Society!

Sending home permission slips to opt in/out of reciting the Pledge is ridiculous. The student can just sit in their chair and do nothing as the class is reciting it, in fact thats what I did my senior year in high school. I got a little crap for it but nothing official, just a couple of dirty looks, and one All-American boy who asked me quite politely to stand and join them.

In fact I still don't recite the Pledge, I will stand and respect the tradition and those who follow it. I would be a liar if I recited the Pledge of Allegiance. My allegiance is not to this country or any other country. I love this country, but my allegiance does not fall on a piece of land, an idea, or a governing body as they are all subject to change in my life. My allegiance is directed to God, family, closest of friends and myself.

How can allegiance be forced? It's just like torturing a confession from an innocent person.

Stockholme Syndrome