Obama Returns to End-of-Life Plan That Caused Stir

reply to post by Thunder heart woman

Yes, health care is going to hell, and with the further "progressive" socialization through the "health care" bill, it will only get worse.

It will end up being only a doctor can decide whether or not you can end/prolong your life and what you can and cannot do to enhance it.

People should remember that the drug companies and insurance companies stand to gain the most from whatever ends up happening with this new health care.
And with whatever end-of-life methods doctors end up overcharging patients.


BTW, I am glad your Mother survived in spite of the care she was given.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
When I go to the Dr. I want to hear EVERYTHING they know about my condition and ALL the options. Then I can make an INFORMED decision on my own.

You are in a state of decline from birth, that is fact for all life. Nobody gets out alive. Pull the plug now.

They can start by telling toddlers. It's never too early.

Originally posted by Anthony1138
you cannot save everyone, plus we are over populated in a bad economic time, so this would be the logical choice of what would be needed to be done, no point crying over it, sometimes I think human beings are too emotional, it blinds you from the bigger picture.

Help the big picture, you obviously "get it". Don't get "too emotional", pull your plug now. See: "'useless feeders" on Google or here on ATS.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
reply to post by Thunder heart woman

 

Yes, health care is going to hell, and with the further "progressive" socialization through the "health care" bill, it will only get worse.

It will end up being only a doctor can decide whether or not you can end/prolong your life and what you can and cannot do to enhance it.

People should remember that the drug companies and insurance companies stand to gain the most from whatever ends up happening with this new health care.
And with whatever end-of-life methods doctors end up overcharging patients.

 

BTW, I am glad your Mother survived in spite of the care she was given.

Come to me the day that occurs, that somebody else has control over whether you want to die, or if you want to prolong your life. The moment someone tells you what you can and can't do with your health, you PM me.

It's mumbo jumbo fear mongering...

Originally posted by abecedarian
Yah, Republicans gave counseling to terminally ill patients and Democrats gave it to patients before they were terminally ill.
And you were saying?

We're all terminal. Why wait till it's too late to counsel the patient? Why not have these decisions made BEFORE I am in an accident and can't speak or let my desires be known?

I honestly think people are so afraid of death that they're not willing to talk about it. They pretend like we're not going to die or ever have to make such decision. Watching the series Six Feet Under really made it clear to me just how important these decisions are.

Look, people GO TO the Doctor. It's not like he comes knocking at the door to force this information on you.

It's VOLUNTARY. You don't HAVE to hear it from your Doc if you don't want to. You're paying him. Tell him to shut up. Get up and leave. I do it all the time when he wants to give me tests or drugs. I just refuse. It's EASY!

I honestly don't see this as government interference, I see it as a service. I think people who are afraid of this are either paranoid or don't understand it.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I honestly don't see this as government interference, I see it as a service. I think people who are afraid of this are either paranoid or don't understand it.

I am neither afraid nor paranoid.

It is interference, and MY tax dollars are being used.
I have no objection if my doctor and I want to have these discussions at my behest.
I don't want the government involved at all....seems like if the government pays for it, they will decide they want to know about it.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

en.wikipedia.org...

from the NYT article:

Under the new policy, outlined in a Medicare regulation, the government will pay doctors who advise patients on options for end-of-life care, which may include advance directives to forgo aggressive life-sustaining treatment.

Can't wait to see how the Catholic hospitals handles this one

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
We're all terminal.

Why wait till it's too late to counsel the patient? Why not have these decisions made BEFORE I am in an accident and can't speak or let my desires be known?

I honestly think people are so afraid of death that they're not willing to talk about it. They pretend like we're not going to die or ever have to make such decision. Watching the series Six Feet Under really made it clear to me just how important these decisions are.

Look, people GO TO the Doctor. It's not like he comes knocking at the door to force this information on you.

It's VOLUNTARY. You don't HAVE to hear it from your Doc if you don't want to. You're paying him. Tell him to shut up. Get up and leave. I do it all the time when he wants to give me tests or drugs. I just refuse. It's EASY!

I honestly don't see this as government interference, I see it as a service. I think people who are afraid of this are either paranoid or don't understand it.

Now that's just grand.

Get up and leave. I do it all the time when he wants to give me tests or drugs. I just refuse. It's EASY!

Are you suggesting that you walk out of the doc when all you need is pseudoephidrine or something like that?

So, you'd rather walk out without any sort of prognosis or prescription? Are you suggesting anyone with an ailment is going to hear "you are going to die"?

We're not talking about relatively simple ailments like the flu or common cold. I mean, surely you're not that callous to expedite losing hope and giving up... like this? ... like the Democrats?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
>snip<
We're all terminal.

Why wait till it's too late to counsel the patient? Why not have these decisions made BEFORE I am in an accident and can't speak or let my desires be known?

Is that a doctor's recommendation required or is a lawyer required?

People who think that dr's are just "suggesting" medical treatments obviously have never had a chronic health condition. Dr's DO try to subtly- or not so sublty- force treatments on people based on their "experience/ knowledge". I have a chronic health condition that requires me to take medication every day. This has enabled me to see just how ruthless/corrupt/inept doctors can be. I recently tried to change specialists so I could see someone closer to home... I had been seeing someone whose practice was over an hour away.
I had suffered some side effects from one of two medications I was taking when I had initially started taking it. My initial doctor told me to watch this because if they continued (which most of the time they would subside within the first two weeks) I would need to get off the medication as fast as possible. They subsided so I continued the medications but he told me if the side effects came back then I would need to stop them as soon as possible and call him immediately.
8 months later I changed specialists. I made an appointment with a doctor who was supposedly educated at Mayo (the number 1 medical school in the nation) and, after many years of practice in Arizona, had recently joined one of the local major health networks near my home. Logically, I assumed that this "doctor" would be a good doctor-with nothing more to go on than her education and experience. After my first appt with this specialist I noticed that the side effects of that medication came back...with a VENGENCE. Things like not being able to breathe, heart palpatations...and others. Her nurse was the only person that returned phone calls and it took her TWO days to call me back... I explained to her that I had previously been told to discontinue this medication if these side effects started again. She IGNORED me and then she proceeded to tell me it was my condition and not the meds so I needed to INCREASE the dosage. I decided to go to my primary care doctor so he would take some blood samples to see if this medication was what was causing issues. I ended up having to LIE to him (he is part of the same health care network) to get him to run the tests...he didn't want to "go behind the specialist's back")
Turns out that the med was causing a build up of carbon dioxide in my blood and was making my kidneys function improperly. I could have DIED if I didn't know to watch for these side effects AND hadn't lied to that primary care doctor to get those tests run... (is it a matter of coincidence that both of these "doctors" are part of the same network...I guess I will never know)
I am now off the med in question and feel better than I have in a very long time... I also changed back to my initial specialist.
You can't tell me that people aren't influenced by doctors based on their "white coats". Most people don't know any better and get a false sense of security based on things like where these physicians are educated and length of time in practice. Imagine if I was one of her "regular" patients with no other advice to have based my information from. People trust the advice of doctors because that's what we are taught to do from a very early age...Not only that, but some people are restricted to certain doctors due to insurance carriers...
This Obama plan is bad...very frightening.

Originally posted by Piper96
People who think that dr's are just "suggesting" medical treatments obviously have never had a chronic health condition. Dr's DO try to subtly- or not so sublty- force treatments on people based on their "experience/ knowledge".

Is breast cancer chronic enough for you? My Dr. said he would get on the floor and crawl across the room on his knees, begging, if it would change my mind about chemotherapy and some other hormone drug, but I still refused. I don't know why people think they have no power with their doctors.

As far as the government spending money on this, they spend money on LOTS of things, many of which I don't want to support, but government serves a purpose and in my opinion, this is one thing they're doing right. It's just my opinion.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Good for you! You took initiative and made your own decision based on information that you obtained yourself. I'm talking about 90% of the population that are brainwashed into thinking that a doctor knows all and always has their best interest at heart. Doctors KNOW that the great majority of people don't question their motives and will do pretty much exactly what the doctor is "suggesting" that they do. Unfortunately the government knows this too.
And good for you...I'm assuming (and I could be wrong) that you have done well with the treatment route that you chose for yourself for your breast cancer!
unfortunately for me, I will be on these meds to treat my condition for the rest of my life, and I have NO other options. I hate that I will always have to rely on a doctor to assist me in making decisions about these medications... And no matter how much I educate myself on them, I hope I never have another doctor that either a) doesn't educate THEMSELVES on the medications they prescribe to me, b) is trying to make as much money as possiblefrom the pharmeceutical companies by pushing certain drugs on me, or c) is trying to fit in as many patients in a day as possible to make the most money, giving patients inadequate care... In most cases the two latter situations could be seen as a form of force of certain treatments by taking advantage of the majority of the population who don't educate themselves...

I find it interesting that the topic took the path it did and not on the fact that this discovery is another example of back door/shady politics.

Pelosi was truful when she stated they wouldn't know what is in the H.C.Law until it was written. She was correct in that Obama teams continue to write the law and thus circumventing the legislative process. If we let them get away with it, why even have congress when you (POTUS) can just write into the passed law anything he wants.

Not to mention that the first draft that was in the bill indicated the "end of life counseling" was avaiable every 5 years. Now it is every year. Also, the incentive for the doctor is now there for him to get involved with the process as he will get paid-he won't be getting paid (or as much) with the new H.C.Law.

You all make excellent arguements for the medical side of it. Lets get back to the politics of this. He is pulling a fast one on the people by doing it the way it he is.

Did you read the email from the main bill drafter? Did you?
www.nytimes.com...

Read it and then decide how much you want to be lie to, tricked, manipulated, wooled pulled over your eyes etc etc. If anything, stand up for the principle of Law and the Constitution for petes sakes.

reply to post by GirlGenius


END of life plans coming from the government???? They cant run programs for the LIVING citizens correctly, over my dead body (no pun intended) will they be influencing my end of life decisions

Just a thought.....so called end of life planning is already in place. Its called palliative care and hospice. Palliative care is when you acknowledge that you have a terminal illness but seek treatments and pain management. Hospice is end of life care. It is actually starting to be initiated much sooner now. You are couseled by your doctor on all options and if the risks if treatments out weighs the benefits of the treatment, then the decision is made to stop treatment and focus on quality of life. In some cases, families do not want to accept that their loved ones are to sick to receive treatments and the doctors have to say "no more". Then they focus on quality of life, not quantity. Being a nurse, I see the pain and despair that these families go through accepting the reality that their loved one is going to die. But it is my job to make sure they are taken are of as well as the patient.

It is obvious that this is being used for political rhetoric. Being used a weapon to play one side against the other. Instead of actually focusing on what is causing cancer, and all the life threatening diseases, they are keeping your attention focused on political jargon. Big pharma and the FDA will always make the money, no matter when you die or who "plans" it for you.

Originally posted by anon72
I find it interesting that the topic took the path it did and not on the fact that this discovery is another example of back door/shady politics.

I find it more interesting that this thread is supposed to be about what you want it to be but cannot be because there are no facts in it. No death panels. Not coming. No one is a white coat is going to tell you it is time to go die. If you really want to stick wiht that topic, you ought to start proving it.

Someone explain to me how the government benefitis from offing healthy citizens?
Explain how doctors benefit from killing their patients.

I just do not even understand the logic behind killing off every tax payer and paying insurance customer as well as every self pay patient on the planet. I am not sure about your doctor but once all my doctor's patients are dead, he is pretty much out of business and all those dead people pay no taxes.
I understand people hate and fear the government no matter what but you all seem to have forgotten how evil and greedy private insurance companies have been. Somehow, Hannity got you all to keep your anger, change your focus. Meanwhile, my insurance company is still denying me tests and telling my doctor what he can and cannot prescribe to me. You have all been tricked into fighting FOR the insurance companies. I look forward to a thread about how honest and altruistic the insurance industry in the US has been.

reply to post by Sinnthia


Evidently you didn't ready the NYT article or any related article.

You maybe correct in saying that it isn't dirty politics. It's criminal.

Originally posted by anon72
reply to post by Sinnthia

 

Evidently you didn't ready the NYT article or any related article.

You maybe correct in saying that it isn't dirty politics. It's criminal.

Evidently you have no answers for me even though you read the article?

Tell me, did you not understand it or does it not back up the case for you?

I read it. Show me what I missed.

reply to post by randomname


You know, I've met quite a few doctors.

Of none of them would I describe as blood sucking ego-maniacs.

Quite the opposite in fact.

reply to post by Sinnthia


It's because a lot of these posters watch a lot of FOX News and because FOX says it's bad, they say it's bad, ever since this story broke, all the FOX brainwashing team has been going into overtime to paint this as a horrible thing.

The fact is, it's in a doctors best interests financially to try and keep a person alive for as long as possible, a dead person can't be charged further for treatment. A living person can, and they can be milked for all they are worth.

So, the ridiculous idea of "Death Panels" as proposed by the brainwashing team at FOX News is erroneous, giving people more information does not equate to offing them.