Obama Returns to End-of-Life Plan That Caused Stir

Originally posted by Heyyo_yoyo
'white attire' is representative of the 'professional' who delivers 'experiened' and 'knowledgeable' healthcare to the people under thier care. Unless you have a personal or family physician, the 'white attire' can mean a whole different ball game for a patient... the difference being whether the 'white attire' cares about you or not.

Will some of you please think about what you are saying. You are honestly saying the government is getting too involved and treating us like children because IN YOUR OPINION WE ARE TOO STUPID to say no to a white coat.

Are you people listening to yourselves?

reply to post by john_bmth

Really? I'm intrigued as to how you've come to this opinion. Ultimately it's the patient's choice, no amount of white attire will push them towards making a decision they don't want to make.

DUDE my Mother ended up DEAD because the Doctor pressured her into using an experimental cancer drug he was writing a F#$%# paper on!

Sloan Kettering, a very well respected hospital had done the surgery and told Mom the cancer was dead because the radiation therapy she had taken five years before had killed it. Unfortunately she went back to her original Doctor who wanted another "experimental patient" for his research on Chemo. Sloan Kettering backed out of the discussion with "Your Primary care doctor knows best"

Unfortunately the dosage was way too high and it killed her. And yes it is MY fault because I could not find the article in Chem Engineering News stating Chemo affects the heart muscle and can kill. Both her heart specialist and the cancer doctor told Mom I didn't know what I was talking about, I was just a chemist.

She had no heart problems prior to the chem and died at the age of 59.

Originally posted by WTFover
I assumed you would acknowledge the context of the quote or, at least, read the rest of the article, to figure out what that was, if you are not already aware. I didn't think it necessary to post it in its entirety.

I am not a member and cannot read the article you posted without becoming one. If there's something in that article you wish me to address, then quote that piece.

But hey, facts are such a nuisance, huh?

Facts are exactly what I'm looking for. Got any?

Originally posted by crimvelvet
DUDE my Mother ended up DEAD because the Doctor pressured her into using an experimental cancer drug he was writing a F#$%# paper on!

I'm very sorry for your loss. But your mother or her guardian had to AGREE to take the experimental drugs. If she said yes, you can hardly blame the Dr. We are each responsible for what we put in our bodies. We are not children.

It's not your fault. It's nobody's fault. People die. There doesn't have to be someone to blame.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I am not a member and cannot read the article you posted without becoming one. If there's something in that article you wish me to address, then quote that piece.

Hmmm. That's funny. Neither am I and I have no problem accessing it.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

I am not a member and cannot read the article you posted without becoming one. If there's something in that article you wish me to address, then quote that piece.

Okay, so you are one of the most active posters on the thread and it turns out that you haven't read the article the thread is about. Hmmm....

Well, with any NYTimes article, you can just Google the title of the article and read the article without signing in. I pointed that out in the OP.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I am so not in favor of doctors suggesting anything to me.

I am there if I am ill, if I need a prescription refilled or if I feel I need a checkup.
I don't want to be conned or pressured into tests or suggestions about when to pull the plug.

It is NOT the role of my doctor to tell me about end-of-life options.
Sounds like another reason to pump up the bill

Originally posted by WTFover
Hmmm. That's funny. Neither am I and I have no problem accessing it.

Are you suggesting that I'm lying? Here's what I get when I click on the link in the OP:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8806c20643c6.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by GirlGenius
Well, with any NYTimes article, you can just Google the title of the article and read the article without signing in. I pointed that out in the OP.

That's exactly what I did. I found another article on it and even posted an excerpt of it.

Here's an idea: Why don't you guys go after me instead of the points I'm making!

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
I am so not in favor of doctors suggesting anything to me.

OK. Tell them that you don't want to hear your options. When I go to the Dr. I want to hear EVERYTHING they know about my condition and ALL the options. Then I can make an INFORMED decision on my own.

I don't want to be conned or pressured into tests or suggestions about when to pull the plug.

Neither do I. But this coverage is VOLUNTARY. I haven't yet read anything that suggests that people are going to be conned or pressured into doing something they don't want to do. Do you have anything that supports this suspicion? Does anyone?

WASHINGTON (AP) — A new health regulation issued this month offers Medicare recipients voluntary end-of-life planning, which Democrats dropped from the monumental health care overhaul last year.

The provision allows Medicare to pay for voluntary counseling to help beneficiaries deal with the complex and painful decisions families face when a loved one is approaching death.

AP

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

I am so not in favor of doctors suggesting anything to me.

I am there if I am ill, if I need a prescription refilled or if I feel I need a checkup.
I don't want to be conned or pressured into tests or suggestions about when to pull the plug.

It is NOT the role of my doctor to tell me about end-of-life options.
Sounds like another reason to pump up the bill

Agreed. I think that you have honed in on the main point of objection for many. There is a creeping involvement by the government into our daily lives. While I believe that end-of-life counseling may be appropriate under some circumstances, I really don't want it to come up in conversation with my doctor, who should be focused on providing good medical care.

Frankly, I think the whole healthcare bill is doomed. They are not going to be able to force people to get coverage (blatantly unconstitutional) and are not going to be able to mandate mainstream care to all (vaccines for everyone will simply not fly).

Originally posted by GirlGenius
While I believe that end-of-life counseling may be appropriate under some circumstances, I really don't want it to come up in conversation with my doctor, who should be focused on providing good medical care.

End of life care IS medical care.

My husband has an illness which will very likely lead to his death within a few years. His response to his situation is to seek out and discuss end-of-life issues with all who are in any way qualified to speak about them. He has on his own initiative discussed his death not only with his doctors but also with psychologists, religious leaders, philosophers, and any and all others who have had experience in these matters. He has also spoken extensively with me and with his family about what he would like to have happen if and when his illness becomes terminal.

Our complaint is not that doctors counsel him to end his life--none of them have-- but rather that they tend to give their medical diagnosis and leave advice on the physical, metaphysical and practical issues up to the patient to resolve on his or her own. One reason thy do this, I believe, is because doctors are not reimbursed to go carefully over a patient's options, and a doctor's time is money. The Obama plan to adequately pay doctors to take the time and care to do this with their patients seems to me wise and reasonable.

My husband can't consult with those who have died, obviously, so he must seek whatever wisdom and solace he can find from those, especially doctors, who had had extensive experience with issues of life and death. We have found that many, many people simply avoid discussing or maybe even thinking about the end of life, which is, after all, one of the most important aspects of our brief time on this planet.

Sadly, either way you slice it, the history of our government in recent years is far from stellar.

Every time government gets involved with something, it goes down hill, this is common knowledge.

So, what in essence, looks to be a great plan, and genuine for the common man, has a more then likely an ugly, d big business, big pharma idealism to it.

If someone is on disability, and they are looking at an economical scoreboard, if the cost of keeping that person alive in the long run is more then they get from the patient, there may be a lack of top end care for this particuler patient because they are not making any money on the "investment".

You are all looking at this from the idea that people are looking at the "human" side of it, where as it's being looked at from a "big business / money" standpoint.

If the government is mucking us over in so many other ways.. taking away our freedoms, subjecting us to TSA body scanners, and all manner of other Nazi-ish style type things.. You have to suspect the darker side of this whole mess.

Just because these "people" are supposed to provide our "end of life" options, does that also mean they will tailor these "end of life" options best suited to the money of it all as well?

I can see it coming to the point of :"oh what a loss, write it off, and call it a day:,

reply to post by GirlGenius


Yeah, I'm glad all those patients went to med school to make an informed decision about treatment.

Too bad all those people with medical degrees are just swaying to their doctors opinion.

Also posted on an other related thread, but transferring it here.

Originally posted by abecedarian
From the NY Times article linked above:

While the new law does not mention advance care planning, the Obama administration has been able to achieve its policy goal through the regulation-writing process, a strategy that could become more prevalent in the next two years as the president deals with a strengthened Republican opposition in Congress.

So, don't put it in the bill, then regulate it elsewhere.
Sneaky little politicians in DC.

edit on 12/26/2010 by abecedarian because: (no reason given)

Sneaky little democrat politicians in this case.

I've been reading that obama would now try to get by decree what he couldn't get Congress and the American people to swallow.

In this case, these de facto beginnings of "death panels" were stripped out of the obamacare bill by Congress, but here is one of obama's toadies putting the regulations back in - by degree.



And for the "everyone should discuss end of life options" democrat supporters, These discussions, should take place, with family and then your doctor, but not with your doctor as mandated by the government. Only a total fool would think those were the same thing.

Plus, add that once the government tags you as "expendable" because your treatment is "too expensive", you really are at the end of your life. Compliments of the obama administration, of course.

reply to post by GirlGenius


Expanded Link

In case anyone wants some more info on this...

Obamacare supporters, answer me this... If everyone already makes their own decisions, and they make them based on information from their doctors, and they are free to choose from all of the options, then why in the hell do we need a law or worse yet, a regulation that mandates something that is apparently already happening?

The problem with government is that they have tendency to impose regulations where regulations aren't necessary!

reply to post by kozmo


Because a part of this law is, Insurance companies can no longer drop a paying customer because they get sick.

Course, conservatives want these Insurance companies to be able to drop people. They like the idea of someone who is sick and needs treatment to just either go bankrupt, or die.

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by kozmo

 

Because a part of this law is, Insurance companies can no longer drop a paying customer because they get sick.

Course, conservatives want these Insurance companies to be able to drop people. They like the idea of someone who is sick and needs treatment to just either go bankrupt, or die.

But that's not the subject of this thread, is it?

So, what's your opinion on government mndated end of life "counseling" - which of course will turn into forced decisions on senir citizen care?

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by kozmo

 

Because a part of this law is, Insurance companies can no longer drop a paying customer because they get sick.

Course, conservatives want these Insurance companies to be able to drop people. They like the idea of someone who is sick and needs treatment to just either go bankrupt, or die.

That is nice and all but has absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter in this thread. Nice obfuscating though.

And by the way... I would be very interested in you posting some evidence to support your ridiculous claim that conservatives want insurance companies to drop people.

I would also be very interested in having you answer my question in my previous post... if you can.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by GirlGenius
This is something that families can decide for themselves without pressure from the medical "authorities".

There's nothing about medical authorities pressuring people about anything.That's how the whole "death panel" BS got started. It's about doctors giving all the options to their patients. A patient can't make an informed decision about his end-of-life if he doesn't know all the options.

I favor people knowing about advanced directives, living wills, etc., before they make their decisions. The decision is still the patient's and the family's.

If you believe that load of crap then enjoy those warm feelings. For the rest of us that see it how it is and how it will be, these are death panels.

Ask yourself this one thing: If it was so warm and cozy in the first place, within the messed up Obama care, then why was it dropped?

Naive!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by GirlGenius
This is something that families can decide for themselves without pressure from the medical "authorities".

There's nothing about medical authorities pressuring people about anything.That's how the whole "death panel" BS got started. It's about doctors giving all the options to their patients. A patient can't make an informed decision about his end-of-life if he doesn't know all the options.

I favor people knowing about advanced directives, living wills, etc., before they make their decisions. The decision is still the patient's and the family's.

If you believe that load of crap then enjoy those warm feelings. For the rest of us that see it how it is and how it will be, these are death panels.

Ask yourself this one thing: If it was so warm and cozy in the first place, within the messed up Obama care, then why was it dropped?

Naive!