The Ramey Memo: Best Roswell Evidence Ever Found

A few years ago i spent about 2 days with a high res copy of the letter and got completely different words from what was in that doc I'll try and find the file if I can and post it later

I'm still waiting on an explaination for how a "balloon" can "crash."

How does a balloon crash?

Originally posted by v1rtu0s0
I'm still waiting on an explaination for how a "balloon" can "crash."

How does a balloon crash?

They actually can be pretty dangerous and can have any number of causes.

www.google.com... -8&tbo=u&tbs=vid:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=iv

reply to post by debrisfield

Originally posted by debrisfield
The claimed (nonexistent) Mogul balloon WAS supposed to be made up of standard weather balloons. There was nothing unusual or mystifying about them.

That's my understanding, but the quantity of material would have been mystifying.

Are you just making this stuff up?

No I got that straight from the 1947 newspaper article.

www.ufologie.net...

Brazel related that on June 14 he and 8-year old son Vernon were about 7 or 8 miles from the ranch house of the J.B. Foster ranch, which he operates, when they came upon a large area of bright wreckage made up of rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper and sticks.

The next day he first heard about the flying disks, and he wondered if what he had found might be the remnants of one of these.

Not made up. He heard about the flying disks. If he hadn't, I doubt he would have used such language to describe what he found.

It is truly amazing how the debunkers can believe that a fictitious Mogul flight for which there is not one scrap of documentation can possibly account for the Roswell debris.

So because we can't prove which balloon it was...therefore it must have been...what?...an alien spacecraft? We can't prove that either.

Just one among over a dozen eyewitness examples, intel officer Marcel described thin metal debris with memory that couldn't be cut, torn, or damaged with sledge hammer blows. It would not burn. He never described anything like fragile, double-sided foil-paper used on radar targets, the same stuff used to wrap candy bars and chewing gum or make radar jamming chaff.

He says it at 3 minutes in this video:



Marcel: "We found a piece of metal about a foot and a half to two feet wide by about two, three feet long. Felt like you had nothing in your hands. It wasn't any thicker than the foil out of a pack of cigarettes". That sounds pretty much like radar reflector material to me. Furthermore, it doesn't sound like the type of material an interplanetary spacecraft would use. Regarding the claims of the "magical properties", he says "Even a sledgehammer would bounce off of it" I tried that with a piece of aluminum foil and my sledgehammer bounced off of my foil too so that's not so amazing, but I do think he's confabulating or exaggerating some of the properties, and not all the witnesses agree on what all the properties of the material were.

Really? Then why did rancher Brazel claim only 5 pounds of debris, when a real Mogul typically weighed 50 or 60 pounds?

I'm not sure all the debris ended up in one place, and I'm not sure Brazel gathered everything, Marcel said it took quite a long time to gather the debris and there were lots of small pieces. Marcel didn't say in this interview the total weight of all the pieces that were recovered.

And how did this get further reduced to only ONE balloon and ONE radar target in Fort Worth, as described by Ramey, his men, and as shown in the photos?

You're still living in 1993. The Air Force admitted this was a cover story in 1994.

There is zero evidence to support a Soviet or Japanese spy balloon.

I said I don't favor those theories. But they are no more ridiculous than an alien spaceship made out of "cigarette pack foil" type material. Actually I thought the Japanese story was stupid too, but I didn't make that up either, all kinds of screwballs have all kinds of theories:
greyfalcon.us...

PM suspects the craft that crashed at Roswell will eventually be identified as either a U.S. attempt to re-engineer a second-generation Fugo, or a hybrid craft which uses both Fugo lifting technology and a Horten-inspired lifting body. In either case, Japanese engineers and pilots brought to the U.S. after the war to work on the project could have been the dead "alien" bodies recovered at the crash site. Also, equipped with a rudimentary radar-deflecting underside, such a balloon could have reached stratospheric altitudes as it traveled over Western Europe and been well above the range of then-existing MiG fighters and missiles even if it had been detected. It could have carried out both photo reconnaissance and air sampling experiments–similar to those of the Mogul balloon–before gliding back to Earth in friendly territory.

Fifty years after the fact, the questions about Roswell still ring loud and clear. Our investigation leads us to believe the explanations that require an extraterrestrial presence, while possible, are nevertheless highly implausible. We're putting our money on a flying disc labeled "Made In Japan."

At least we agree on one thing, the idea it was a Japanese balloon seems pretty silly to both of us.

This is more of Moore's double talk. If the constant-altitude balloons went up, they were documented in Mogul records, period.

It's nice that you know so much more than Moore about what would have been documented, I don't claim to know exactly what would have been documented and how, but I do believe the claims of compartmentalization for secret military projects, that's a standard procedure.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
reply to post by debrisfield

 

Originally posted by debrisfield
The claimed (nonexistent) Mogul balloon WAS supposed to be made up of standard weather balloons. There was nothing unusual or mystifying about them.

That's my understanding, but the quantity of material would have been mystifying.

Are you just making this stuff up?

No I got that straight from the 1947 newspaper article.

www.ufologie.net...

Brazel related that on June 14 he and 8-year old son Vernon were about 7 or 8 miles from the ranch house of the J.B. Foster ranch, which he operates, when they came upon a large area of bright wreckage made up of rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper and sticks.

The next day he first heard about the flying disks, and he wondered if what he had found might be the remnants of one of these.

Not made up. He heard about the flying disks. If he hadn't, I doubt he would have used such language to describe what he found.

He used "flying disc" because what he found didn't match a balloon, which he also said at the end. He had previously found two weather observation balloons, but this wasn't like any of those. Yet what was displayed in Fort Worth was exactly that--a weather observation balloon.

The people he spoke to about it and showed debris to, before going to Roswell to report it, suggested that maybe he had found the remains of one of those "flying discs" they had heard about in the news. So they were mystified too. Then he reports it, and the military was also mystified. Why would they be mystified or even bother to investigate if all he found was rubber balloon pieces, balsa wood sticks, aluminum foil, and Scotch tape?

Brazel also said, added up to only 5 pounds, so nothing remotely like a large Mogul balloon train, and again not what was shown in Fort Worth--a single balloon and radar target weighing only a little more than a pound. Brazel also said all the rubber pieces were small or in strips. But that isn't what is shown in Fort Worth, which is instead an intact weather balloon. Brazel said he found no rigging of any kind, yet a true Mogul would have left hundreds of yards of rigging behind.

So there are no matches here, except for Roswell debunkers who sweep all the obvious and serious inconsistencies under the rug and then proclaim "Mogul balloon", even though the alleged flight never existed.

It is truly amazing how the debunkers can believe that a fictitious Mogul flight for which there is not one scrap of documentation can possibly account for the Roswell debris.

So because we can't prove which balloon it was...therefore it must have been...what?...an alien spacecraft? We can't prove that either.

You can eliminate what it COULDN'T be then start dealing with what is left. Even ignoring the later multi-witness stories of strange debris and alien bodies, it couldn't be a Mogul, a V-2, a Japanese Fugo balloon, a B-29 crash, flying elephants, etc. So what is left? What freaked out the rancher and the military so much, and how could the military be so confused that they actually thought they had a real supersonic aircraft "flying disc" on their hands (that's what "flying disc" meant back then)? The base commander, no idiot, put out a press release saying they had recovered a "flying disc". Throw in the dozens of eyewitnesses and secondary witnesses to exotic debris, alien bodies, military cordons, extreme security, death threats to civilians, and something not made by us or the Russians starts becoming much more probable.

Just one among over a dozen eyewitness examples, intel officer Marcel described thin metal debris with memory that couldn't be cut, torn, or damaged with sledge hammer blows. It would not burn. He never described anything like fragile, double-sided foil-paper used on radar targets, the same stuff used to wrap candy bars and chewing gum or make radar jamming chaff.

He says it at 3 minutes in this video:

Marcel: "We found a piece of metal about a foot and a half to two feet wide by about two, three feet long. Felt like you had nothing in your hands. It wasn't any thicker than the foil out of a pack of cigarettes". That sounds pretty much like radar reflector material to me.

More of your cherry-picking of testimony. What it sounds like from the limited quote is a thin, metal-like foil, not specifically "radar reflector material", which for one thing was a laminated foil-paper like used on chewing gum and candy wrappers. Where did Marcel describe that?

To get a more complete picture of what the material was like (instead of the usual debunker quoting out of context) here are other Marcel thin-"metal" descriptions:

(H&M, FUFOR, 1979 television interview) "[There were] many bits of metallic foil, that looked like, but was not, aluminum, for no matter how often one crumpled it, it regained its original shape again. Besides that, they were indestructible, even with a sledgehammer."

(Corley) "...the material was unusual. Of course the Air Force called it a balloon. It couldn't have been. It was porous. It couldn't hold any air. The material was a fabric... I tried to blow though it. It would go right through it. I tried to blow it with my mouth." [Corley asking for clarification: "What piece? That foil looking stuff?"] "No, no. ...what looked like balloon material. A cloth. ...It wouldn't hold any air. ...it's a cloth-like material, but it was also metallic. ...It was a metallic cloth. It [air] would go right through it. I even tried to burn it. It wouldn't burn. ...a balloon has to have ...gas to go up in the air -- even hot air. This could not hold anything like that. It was porous.

(R&S2) "We [Cavitt and himself] found some metal, small bits of metal. ... I wanted to see some of the stuff burn, but all I had was a cigarette lighter ... I lit the cigarette lighter to some of this stuff and it didn't burn."

(R&S1, SR#2, interviewed by Leonard Stringfield) "The metal fragments varied in size up to six inches in length, but were the thickness of tinfoil. The fragments were unusual because they were of great strength. They could not be bent or broken, no matter what pressure we applied by hand."

(B&M) " ...The pieces of metal that we brought back were so thin, just like the tinfoil in a pack of cigarettes. I didn't pay too much attention to that at first, until one of the boys came to me and said: 'You know that metal that was in there? I tried to bend the stuff and it won't bend. I even tried it with a sledgehammer. You can't make a dent in it.' ...This particular piece of metal was about two feet long and maybe a foot wide. It was so light it weighed practically nothing, that was true of all the material that was brought up, it weighed practically nothing ... it was so thin. So I tried to bend the stuff. We did all we could to bend it. It would not bend and you could not tear it or cut it either. We even tried making a dent in it with a sixteen-pound sledgehammer, and there was still no dent in it... It's still a mystery to me what the whole thing was. Now by bend, I mean crease. It was possible to flex this stuff back and forth, even to wrinkle it, but you could not put a crease in it that would stay, nor could you dent it at all. I would almost have to describe it as a metal with plastic properties."

(Corley) "What are you trying to make me say, 'Do you really know that it came from outer space?' I don't. How can I say that? All I know is the material that I found and carried to the base ... The only thing I can say is that it might indicate that it might have been from out of space. It is nothing I had ever seen before. And I haven't seen it since. Even modern manufacturing and process that we have now ... all the material they have ... I've never seen anything like that."

[Corley: The foil that you said ... if you wrinkle it and lay it down it gets its shape again?] "Well, you couldn't wrinkle it. You see this foil [Pointed to a cigarette package on the table] You know the thickness of that? That's thin. I found a piece about this wide and about this long. About two feet long. And I had a very genius fellow working for me in my office. ...He said, 'I saw something unusual.' I said, 'What's that?' He said, 'You see this piece of metal?' He said, 'I tried to bend it, tried to make a mark on it. You can't make a mark on it.' I said, 'You're kidding me.' So I went out there. He took a sixteen pound sledgehammer and put the piece of metal on the ground and he hit it like that and it bounced off it."

Couldn't be cut, torn, broken, dented, creased, or marked? Would be completely undamaged by sledgehammer blows? You could blow through it? Unaffected by flame? Sorry, these are clearly not descriptions of the material properties of ordinary aluminum foil, much less aluminum foil-paper. Get real.

Furthermore, it doesn't sound like the type of material an interplanetary spacecraft would use.

That statement isn't even logical. Instead, if the substance was as light, tough and heat-resistant as witnesses say, it would have been an excellent material to build any flying craft out of. To save weight, the lunar lander had a Kapton foil skin. The astronauts, if they weren't careful, could have put their hands through the walls. But the Roswell stuff was described as much tougher than that, therefore excellent aerospace material.

Thin-metal materials with many of the properties described by early witnesses are now emerging from our labs, but didn't exist back when people first started talking. An example are so-called liquid metal materials, existing only for about the last decade, with memory properties, much harder and several times stronger than ordinary thin metals, and highly resistant to being cut.

Regarding the claims of the "magical properties", he says "Even a sledgehammer would bounce off of it" I tried that with a piece of aluminum foil and my sledgehammer bounced off of my foil too so that's not so amazing, but I do think he's confabulating or exaggerating some of the properties, and not all the witnesses agree on what all the properties of the material were.

Like I said, get real. Anyone claiming that they can repeatedly strike ordinary aluminum foil with a sledgehammer without having any affect on it is the one guilty of "confabulating or exaggerating", not Marcel and other debris witnesses.

And actually, the vast majority of debris witnesses agree on the unusual properties of the various materials, including the foil-like material with memory properties. See:

roswellproof.com...

Really? Then why did rancher Brazel claim only 5 pounds of debris, when a real Mogul typically weighed 50 or 60 pounds?

I'm not sure all the debris ended up in one place, and I'm not sure Brazel gathered everything, Marcel said it took quite a long time to gather the debris and there were lots of small pieces. Marcel didn't say in this interview the total weight of all the pieces that were recovered.

But Ramey in 1947 displayed only a single balloon and radar target, which would weigh only a little more than a pound. That, said Ramey, was all of it. And the USAF in 1994 again claimed that was ALL that was recovered, and witness claims of vastly more debris in the field or being flown out in airplanes were just exaggerations by lying witnesses and Roswell authors.

Ramey was at least consistent. He said it was a single weather balloon & target and that is what he showed. But the modern USAF is now trying to have it both ways, claiming that was all that was found but it was also a "giant" Mogul balloon that was recovered.

Marcel and others did indicate a large debris field, which is one reason the military was interested, and two intelligence officers were sent out in two vehicles by Col. Blanchard. That wouldn't have been needed to recover a Fort Worth single weather balloon or even a complete Mogul balloon which weighed only 50 or 60 pounds when intact. That could have fit in the trunk of a one car. Again, the USAF trying to have it both ways.

And how did this get further reduced to only ONE balloon and ONE radar target in Fort Worth, as described by Ramey, his men, and as shown in the photos?

You're still living in 1993. The Air Force admitted this was a cover story in 1994.

What they ACTUALLY said was the material in the photos WAS the real Roswell debris, but it was really from a Mogul, not the weather balloon Ramey said it was. So THAT allegedly was the cover story. Also they claimed nothing else was left behind or recovered. All the stories of military cordons and large recovery efforts, multiple plane flights, high security, etc. were just more lies.

So, contrary to another of your made-up facts, the USAF in 1994 was STILL claiming the balloon debris in the photos was exactly what was found, not that they substituted a single weather balloon and radar target in its place. That was the story of those gullible, money-grubbing saucer nuts. Get your debunking stories straight.

There is zero evidence to support a Soviet or Japanese spy balloon.

I said I don't favor those theories. But they are no more ridiculous than an alien spaceship made out of "cigarette pack foil" type material. Actually I thought the Japanese story was stupid too, but I didn't make that up either, all kinds of screwballs have all kinds of theories
greyfalcon.us...

So you admit they are screwball theories with nothing to back them up, yet you still presented them here as viable hypotheses. What you are really saying, just like all debunkers, is that nothing will ever convince you of the crashed spaceship, so anything else, no matter how ridiculous or impossible is still preferable. Is it too difficult for you to understand, if something conventional happened then you are still required to prove the conventional hypothesis, such as providing actual conventional documentation, instead of continually making things up?

PM suspects the craft that crashed at Roswell will eventually be identified as either a U.S. attempt to re-engineer a second-generation Fugo, or a hybrid craft which uses both Fugo lifting technology and a Horten-inspired lifting body. In either case, Japanese engineers and pilots brought to the U.S. after the war to work on the project could have been the dead "alien" bodies recovered at the crash site. Also, equipped with a rudimentary radar-deflecting underside, such a balloon could have reached stratospheric altitudes as it traveled over Western Europe and been well above the range of then-existing MiG fighters and missiles even if it had been detected. It could have carried out both photo reconnaissance and air sampling experiments–similar to those of the Mogul balloon–before gliding back to Earth in friendly territory.

Fifty years after the fact, the questions about Roswell still ring loud and clear. Our investigation leads us to believe the explanations that require an extraterrestrial presence, while possible, are nevertheless highly implausible. We're putting our money on a flying disc labeled "Made In Japan."

At least we agree on one thing, the idea it was a Japanese balloon seems pretty silly to both of us.

So there really isn't much point in presenting it. Imaginary projects with no real evidence that they ever existed explain nothing. The Popular Mechanics article was just more speculative garbage with nothing to back it up.

This is more of Moore's double talk. If the constant-altitude balloons went up, they were documented in Mogul records, period.

It's nice that you know so much more than Moore about what would have been documented, I don't claim to know exactly what would have been documented and how, but I do believe the claims of compartmentalization for secret military projects, that's a standard procedure.

"Compartmentalization" had nothing to do with which Mogul flights showed up in Mogul flight summaries and reports. Those that flew made it in; those that didn't fly weren't recorded. Pretty simple. The AF in their attempt to debunk Roswell published the various Mogul reports in Moore's files, many of which he helped write. They clearly indicate no Mogul Flights 2, 3, & 4, and also indicate why they aren't there--canceled and never flew. Yet they lied and claimed they did, citing #4 as explaining Roswell.

Again, imaginary, nonexistent objects cannot explain the Roswell crash, even if you don't believe in crashed spaceships. Yet these are exactly the stupid "explanations" continually being served up by the debunking community.

Originally posted by XtraTL
reply to post by XtraTL

 

Replying to myself... I looked around for a better image, which I found here:

upload.wikimedia.org...

In fact google images has a few different images, enhanced from the original in various ways. The start could be either

"--- and the pieces of the wreck you collected to the"
or
"--- and the viewers of the wreck you contacted to top"

"team at Fort ~~~~~, ~~~"

"~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ wreck ~ appear covered up intentionally negate"
or
"~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ "disc" ~ appear covered up necessitating ~~~~~"

"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ swap ~~~ meaning of order ~~~ ~~~~"

"~~~~~ only turn out to be weather balloons ~~~~~ ~~~~"

"...~~~ ~~~~ and ~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~"
"~~~~~"

My main comment here is that many of these readings would be invalidated by lack of proper letter counts. E.g., the words that follow the "disc" word at the start of the second paragraph are of lengths, 4, 4, 4, 3, not 6, 7, 2, 13.

My second comment is that for a reading to be considered possibly valid, it has to make sense. It should be grammatical and has to work with the words, phrases and sentences before and after it and in the context of the historical circumstances under which the message was written. Thus I wouldn't expect to see "UFO" in the memo since the term hadn't be invented yet and the same for "MJ-12", as some have done. Such anachronisms are good indications of bad readings.

For me at least, this doesn't constitute evidence of anything. If I can't read it myself and be sure of what it says, it isn't of any value to me, apart from interest sake.

A reasonable sentiment, and probably the way most people feel. They want to see it for themselves. It helps to study it a lot, like working on a very hard crossword puzzle. You get better as you get into it.

What would be interesting would be to straighten out that piece of paper using a 3D computer model of how it is folded, adjust for the uneven lighting on it, try to work out some letters that are known for sure and match them with an actual known typeface and try to pick out other occurrences of the same known letters and other letters of the known typeface.

It is a shame it is written in all caps. It could be much easier to read if written in lower case with stems of letters above and below the line.

Anyhow, with some partial known information, put it through a dictionary for all possible words that fit.

This would be a scientific way of analysing it rather than passing it to random people to try and make words out. However, I don't know if that would end up in any more certainty about the contents. It's just too indistinct to be sure about. The brain can fill in so much missing information.

I basically agree with everything written here. It would be very useful to flatten the message out and then apply computer algorithms to try to tease out more probable letters, then use a lexicon, grammar, and Bayesian logic to try to come up with the more probable words, phrases, and sentences, i.e., a computer read instead of a person read. Still, even the best computer language programs are no match for human readers, just more "objective", not necessarily more accurate.

Crypto analysts deal with these problems all the time. Technical analysis can get you only so far. Ultimately, the final products have to pass through human filters, who use their deep knowledge of the situation to sort out the more likely from the unlikely or just plain gibberish.

Anytime you are dealing with data that has any sort of ambiguity in it (which is almost always), there is no such thing as a truly "objective" conclusion, since there may be multiple interpretations of the data. Some may be superior or equally valid, while others are not. That's why the experts haggle over the meaning of data in all fields of knowledge, sometimes having very bitter fights. The Martian meteorite with alleged bacterial fossils is one very good example.

So after reading the discussion... I have been refreshed on a lot of different areas of argument in the roswell story that I had either forgotten... or either didn't know about.

So, like other members have said... It doesn't really seem to make sense that a weather balloon, or even the Project Mogul balloon could have been the (only?)source of the debris field.

Just how exactly does a balloon make a huge debris field reminiscent of a plane crash?

Not only that, but if the crash was indeed from a Project Mogul balloon, the Wikipedia page of project mogul states that the balloons were made of Polyethylene plastic- if this was so, then how come all the talk of metal and foil if the balloons were mostly made out of the same kind of plastic that you put your groceries in?

The other thing that keeps nagging at me is all the different witness testimonies out there. Most people who saw the crash say it was just a giant debris field with pieces of light foil-type metal everywhere, but other people claim to have seen a crashed "disc", or even a crashed flying saucer with bodies. Other testimonies involving the recovery of the object seem to involve a lot of secrecy and cover up, including other mentions of UFO's and bodies.

The thing that gets me the most is the Air Force.

So the guy who mis-identifies a weather balloon as a crashed flying saucer gets major promotions within a year? Not to mention he was a part of the air force, and without doubt should have known what he was looking at to start off with.

Even the recent "admission" by the air force that the crash was really a part of project mogul seems fishy... almost like they are trying to provide an explanation for the extremely obvious cover-up that took place just to keep people quiet.

Again, I don't think that anyone can really draw up an accurate conclusion of what really happened at Roswell, but the evidence seems to suggest that the true story is different from the official story- which in itself has been changed at least 3 times.

Seems like they can't decide which lie to tell us

General Ramey's chief of staff, a retired general by the name of Thomas DuBose, gave sworn testimony that he was ordered to initiate a cover up of Roswell by higher ups in DC and not to discuss the matter ever again. He was ordered to forward the crash material on up by special courier. They would not go to so much hassle over a weather balloon. I positively think the Roswell object was of alien origin.

Originally posted by Schaden
General Ramey's chief of staff, a retired general by the name of Thomas DuBose, gave sworn testimony that he was ordered to initiate a cover up of Roswell by higher ups in DC and not to discuss the matter ever again. He was ordered to forward the crash material on up by special courier. They would not go to so much hassle over a weather balloon.

This type of argument was persuasive in 1993.

But it hasn't been persuasive since 1995 after they admitted it wasn't a weather balloon.

So when you and others are still asking why they would cover up a weather balloon, it sounds like you're stuck in 1993.

The thing that gets me the most is the Air Force.

So the guy who mis-identifies a weather balloon as a crashed flying saucer gets major promotions within a year? Not to mention he was a part of the air force, and without doubt should have known what he was looking at to start off with.

Marcel, the intelligence officer often blamed by skeptics as allegedly misidentifying simple, obvious balloon debris, had military MOs of combat intelligence officer, photo-interpretations officer, and RADAR intelligence officer. The last one came when he took an intensive radar intelligence course at the end of WWII, after helping plan the A-bomb attacks on Japan. In 1946, he was one of the key personnel of the 509th Bomb Group and 8th AAF at Operation Crossroads, the A-bomb tests in the Marshall Islands. For his work, he was awarded three commendations from senior officers, including Admiral Blandy, who headed the operation, Gen. Kepner, who headed up aerial operations (and who was probably responsible a year after Roswell for having Marcel transferred to Washington for more top-secret A-bomb work, namely the detection of any Soviet blasts), and finally the very same Gen. Ramey of the Roswell incident, who cited his key role in security, intelligence collation, and operation of the briefing room for the 509th and 8th AAF, citing the perfection of his briefings.

A key component of A-bomb intelligence and running a huge aerial and naval operation like that is weather prediction. Thus they certainly would have used the same weather balloons and radar targets on the tiny Marshall Island atoll island of Kwajalein, and it would be rather remarkable if Marcel wasn't aware of their use, just like it would be rather remarkable if his radar intelligence course the year before said nothing about the use of radar targets. Yet debunkers claim, with zero evidence, that Marcel and others at Roswell like commander Blanchard would have been totally ignorant about weather balloons and radar targets.

This is what happened to that idiot intelligence officer Marcel AFTER Roswell (much of the material can be found here):

roswellproof.com...

*Received a commendation from Admiral Blandy for his work at Operation Crossroads.

*Was recommended for promotion to Lt.-Col. in the AF Reserves by Colonel Blanchard and Colonel Dubose, Ramey's chief of staff, also pictured in the various Roswell photos of the weather balloon and later said it was all a cover story for what really happened.

*Officially received his promotion early 1948 (though remained a Major on active duty)

*Was recommissioned in the Spring of 1948 while military budgets were being cut, the military down-sized, and commissions were hard to come by

*Received an evaluation by Blanchard and Dubose Spring 1948, where Blanchard boosted his numerical ratings to "superior" level over the previous "high excellent". Dubose recommended him for command officer training school

*When Ramey's operation officer, Colonel John Ryan, replaced Blanchard at Roswell in the summer of 1948, he wrote a brief evaluation of Marcel saying his work and career had been "most outstanding" and "most exemplary". Ryan became the AF Chief of Staff in 1966 and then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, so again, no slouch.

*When the SAC and military intelligence at the Pentagon began competing for Marcel for other projects, Ramey wrote Marcel an evaluation, saying his services to his command had been "outstanding", he thought him future command officer material, and he had nobody to replace him in his command.

*Marcel then briefly worked for the SAC as intelligence chief of their "Alien Capabilities Section" (no kidding, whatever it meant), before being transferred to the Pentagon to work on the Special Weapons Project (again Gen. Kepner probably had a hand in this). This was the detection operations of expected eventual Soviet A-bomb blasts, which ironically enough, included Project Mogul. Marcel was officer in charge of the war room, listed as an assistant for atomic energy, and provided briefings to senior officers on the latest changes in intelligence. While stationed there, he received two more evaluations with "superior" numerical ratings and praise for his technical capability and unusual range of intelligence background.

This is the "inept" intelligence officer who supposedly couldn't identify balsa wood, aluminum foil, and rubber balloon material, instead supposedly inflating it into a supersonic "flying saucer" because of media saucer hysteria. That's what the skeptics will usually say.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


The records of the American Government show Moore was telling porkies about it being a Mogul balloon as no Mogul was listed as missing that is commensurate with the Roswell incident Moore also specifically avoids telling the truth about the liaison between these Mogul flights and the Roswell base. The fact that there was a standing joke about "have you found any of our balloons".. Of course, were he to admit that this was so, including Mogul balloons, that would immediately blow a huge whole in the whole balloon explanation. However, unfortunately for the *hot air* enthusiasts that's exactly what it is.

Fact ..they reported they had found a flying s disc

Fact... they fabricated, by their own admission, it was actually a weather balloon

Fact... they lied about losing a Mogul balloon that their own records, obtained under the FOIA, show was never actually launched due to adverse weather conditions.

Fact... One "mistake" and 2 lies are all from the government..The rest is speculation on everyone's part.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


So that there is no confusion in the continuing discussion here are photos of a Navy Skyhook Balloon and a Mogul Balloon Train.

Navy Skyhook Balloon
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f6ff802053de.jpg[/atsimg]

Mogul Balloon Train - The 3 sections are really one long construction hence "train"
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1e81a788ea74.gif[/atsimg]

Originally posted by v1rtu0s0
I'm still waiting on an explaination for how a "balloon" can "crash."

How does a balloon crash?

I answered that question already. But to satisfy your need, the Mogul balloon train didn't crash! It's one hell of a long construction (see the photo in my reply) and then you can understand how the weather at the time helped the train drag along the ground breaking it up into the pieces they found in a large debris field. There is nothing real about a crashed UFO being found. No one understands anything about the times in 1947 and love to read their conclusions based on faulty data.

There is a lot of ignorance being expressed in this thread by the young, ignorant believers who it seems by their replies will never really amount to anything on this planet. Ignorant in, ignorant out. Since you are the future, the planet is doomed.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by Schaden
General Ramey's chief of staff, a retired general by the name of Thomas DuBose, gave sworn testimony that he was ordered to initiate a cover up of Roswell by higher ups in DC and not to discuss the matter ever again. He was ordered to forward the crash material on up by special courier. They would not go to so much hassle over a weather balloon.

This type of argument was persuasive in 1993.

But it hasn't been persuasive since 1995 after they admitted it wasn't a weather balloon.

So when you and others are still asking why they would cover up a weather balloon, it sounds like you're stuck in 1993.

The USAF did NOT say it wasn't a weather balloon. They said it wasn't a usual weather balloon, but allegedly one used on Project Mogul.

I don't know, does anyone see "Project Mogul" written down on the balloon debris? How does one distinguish one weather balloon from another? Is there any Mogul balloon equipment there that might show it was indeed from Project Mogul? No again.

How about "tape with flowers" described by rancher Brazel, which the Air Force claimed proved it came from a Mogul radar reflector? Is any of that in the photos? Well the Air Force (and others after them), examined the photos and was forced to admit their secret photoanalysis lab couldn't find it in the photos. So again, no connection to Mogul.

And then there is the quantity of debris. Gen. Ramey said it was only a single weather balloon and radar target recovered by his men, and that is what he showed. But the Air Force claim that it was from a Mogul meant that something like a 28 weather balloon, 5 radar target Mogul someone reduced itself to exactly match a normal one balloon/one radar target weather balloon.

And finally, the USAF invented an Mogul flight that never happened to try to account for what rancher Brazel found.

So we have the following skeptical "explanation" for Roswell:
1. A "giant" imaginary balloon flight that never happened
2. The giant imaginary balloon allegedly recovered at Roswell magically transformed itself into exactly one weather balloon and radar target by the time it arrived at Fort Worth, as shown in the photos and stated by Gen. Ramey.
3. There is nothing in the photos taken that in any way connect the debris to Mogul or in any way distinguish it from a normal civilian or military, singular meteorological balloon carrying a wind-tracking radar target. But it must come from a Mogul balloon.

This little absurd post-1993 scenario Arbitrageur and other debunkers apparently find "persuasive" evidence that a Mogul balloon explains Roswell.

Now let's go back to Brig. Gen. Thomas Dubose, whose testimony Arbitrageur says may have been persuasive in 1993, but not since then. If anything, I would say the magical, impossible, modern USAF Mogul balloon nonsense would make Dubose's testimony of the weather balloon debris being a cover story even more persuasive. Why would USAF counterintelligence need to invent a nonexistent balloon flight that can't possibly explain what happened unless they were still trying to cover something up?

Originally posted by The Shrike
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

So that there is no confusion in the continuing discussion here are photos of a Navy Skyhook Balloon and a Mogul Balloon Train.

Mogul Balloon Train - The 3 sections are really one long construction hence "train"
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edit on 26-12-2010 by The Shrike because: Clarity.

Thanks for posting this, since it is very useful in illustrating all the lying and nonsense the debunkers have used to advance the absurd Mogul balloon hypothesis.

This is the surviving engineering schematic of "Flight 2" that they attempted to launch in April 1947 back in Bethlehem, PA. But a project report said they had to cancel the launch because of high winds and equipment failure. They also wrote they stripped off all the equipment you see in the diagram for later use, but had to cut loose the inflated and non-reusable weather balloons.

Despite it being very clearly stated that Flight #2 never came off and it is clearly omitted from flight summaries, unlike the flights that did go up, one of the Air Force counterintelligence agents who wrote the 1995 Roswell report, Lt. McAndrew, outright lied and said Flight #2 DID fly. Then he also claimed there was also a Flight #3, even though it too is missing from flight records. And this lying was likely done to try to make a case that Flight #4, also missing, also flew, even though the candidate for #4 they list, an attempted flight on June 4, was "again" canceled, like the attempt the day before, because of excessive cloud cover. In reality, it was Flight #5, June 5, that is clearly listed in Mogul records and official Air Force and NASA flight histories as the first such flight in New Mexico, not some nonexistent Flight 4.

Thus through deliberate lying and deception, Air Force counterintelligence tried to make a case that the nonexistent Mogul balloon flight #4 explained Roswell. Gullible, unthinking debunkers continue to fall for this. They could probably have said one of Santa Claus' lost flights explained Roswell, and the debunkers would still support it.

Notice also the following about that Flight #2 schematic. Supposedly the nonexistent Mogul 4 was similarly configured. Thus about 28 weather balloons and 3 radar targets magically transformed into just one weather balloon and one radar target pictured in Gen. Ramey's office. And that is all that Ramey said was found.

The modern AF seconded that what was pictured was all that was found, and all the stories of a huge debris field with military cordons and large recovery operations under tight security, planes full of debris, etc., were all exaggerations and lies made up by money-grubbing Roswell researchers trying to make a buck.

Ramey also said there was no instruments recovered, just the balloon and target, and sure enough, no Mogul equipment or any other balloon instruments in the photos. So what happened to all that Mogul equipment shown suspended from the balloons and beneath the radar targets? Also the rancher never described anything like the Mogul equipment, nor did anybody else, including Marcel, the intelligence officer.

And finally, note all the rigging holding all this together, probably around 400 yards of it. You would think at least some of that would be left behind, wouldn't you? Yet the rancher claimed there was absolutely no rigging found. That apparently magically disappeared too along with the balloon equipment as the nonexistent giant Mogul balloon also magically reduced itself down to exactly 1 weather balloon and 1 radar target to precisely match what Gen. Ramey would later describe as an ordinary meteorological balloon and attached radar target.

The same lying Lt. McAndrew, interviewed Charles Moore, the Mogul engineer. McAndrew wasn't stupid, and noticed the absence of rigging in the descriptions. He asked Moore if it could disintegrate in the sun, and Moore said he didn't think so. That was last you will ever hear from the AF on the subject of the inexplicable missing rigging, if it really was a Mogul crash there. McAndrew swept it under the carpet, and naturally didn't bring the subject up in his report summary, where he instead spent a lot of time lying about nonexistent Mogul balloon flights.

You might also pay attention to the 3 radar targets depicted in the diagram, as shown at the top left and bottom middle. These were three triangular corners facing outward and downward (to reflect radar), with string depicted as rigging attaching them to the main balloon train line. Do any of these look in any way like "discs"? Yet Ramey and other after him back then (up to our present-day debunkers right here), were trying to equate these very un-disc-like radar reflectors to reports of thin, flat, roundish discs. You can squint your eyes real tight, and they still don't look remotely like "discs".

Ramey, probably in an effort to make them more disc-like, also called them "hexagonal". Do they look "hexagonal"? Not in a the shown side view. Their outline might be described as "hexagonal" if you look directly from the top or bottom and ignore all the other details. But that would still require an intact radar target as depicted in the diagram, not a badly torn up target, that was all Ramey had to see back then while he was making his "hexagonal" description. So where did he get it? Probably it was scripted for him by military counterintelligence back then, who were using the radar targets to debunk all the flying saucer reports. Ramey and Roswell were just the opening act.

So yes, thanks for posting the diagram, which illustrates just how ridiculous the whole Mogul hypothesis is when you cut through all the deception and actually think critically.

But again (and again), at the end of the day, what do we have? Stories. Somebody SAID they saw this... Somebody else SAID they saw something else... Blah blah blah.

The fact is, nobody can prove anything about anything with just a lot of stories. And consistency between people's stories (which is a big problem in this case) doesn't add any weight to the evidence. If ten people say they saw a blue cow recovered in Roswell, that still doesn't prove anything about a blue cow. It just proves that somehow their stories got to sounding alike. It's a sociological effect. Not a crashed flying saucer. At least not one you can prove with even one tiny shred of the miracle material, because nobody has any! You can't put a story under an electron microscope.

So I suggest to anyone who is really convinced that Roswell is the key and smoking gun to anything... give up! Unless somebody pulls a cigar box out from under Grandpa's bed that's filled with flying saucer material, the case is not going to get any better. It certainly hasn't over the decades. And as it stands now, the evidence is very, very weak, and fails miserably.

Originally posted by XtraTL
What would be interesting would be to straighten out that piece of paper using a 3D computer model of how it is folded, adjust for the uneven lighting on it, try to work out some letters that are known for sure and match them with an actual known typeface and try to pick out other occurrences of the same known letters and other letters of the known typeface.

I've already tried that a number of times, and the best luck I've had with it is using the "Liquify" filter on Photoshop to pull and stretch the words back into line and size. In addition to the lack of definition, there's a problem near the fold, where the letters are so compacted that they don't stretch back out well. So it's nearly impossible to recreate a grid to see what recognizable letters are there, and what alternatives are possible to fill in the gaps.

But that's only a small problem considering we don't know how many of those wonderful Army acronyms might be used, or abbreviations, what might be a number instead of a letter, what might be a stupid misspelling, and so on. Only a few words can be picked out with any accuracy. None of them definitely have anything to do with alien flying saucers.

Wishful thinking. That's what the Ramey Memo represents more than anything.

reply to post by The Shrike


Since you're so obviously ageist and look down on everybody here with contempt because you are so superior in intelligence please tell us all.... why do you waste your precious time in threads like this one and the Travis Walton thread when you clearly do not believe in the hypotheses of the believers who want to discuss these issues?

What do you get out of it?

Do you think you are helping the young and ignorant by insulting them from on top of your pedestal?

Sounds like a bunch of bull*hit if you ask me.

Nothing but speculation.