The Ramey Memo: Best Roswell Evidence Ever Found

Originally posted by jclmavg

Originally posted by debrisfield
Nice to have a polite discussion for a change.

Dave?

Yes it is nice to see politeness.

I wondered if that was Dave too but I ran across this article by Tim Printy trying to figure out who was correct about the trajectory of Mogul flight 4, between Dave Rudiak or Charles Moore:

Rudiak: Right, Wrong or just Ridiculous? So Printy is trying to figure out who is right about the trajectory, but debrisfield is saying that Mogul flight 4 didn't even exist. I don't know about that, there's sure a lot of detailed trajectory plotting and debate going on for a nonexistent object.

Regarding politeness, sorry if I wasn't polite, but I try to be. I agree with Gazrok on many issues but often not on Roswell, but in spite of our disagreements we have always been polite to each other, from my perspective. And one thing that I think we DO agree on about Roswell is that probably neither one of us nor anybody else is 100% sure what really happened, we are all speculating to some degree to fill in the blanks, except you debrisfield seem a lot more sure than the rest of us, and if we don't agree with you then we're "gullible". Anyway I see no reason we can't disagree yet still be polite about it and drop the ad hominems.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
Rudiak: Right, Wrong or just Ridiculous? So Printy is trying to figure out who is right about the trajectory, but debrisfield is saying that Mogul flight 4 didn't even exist. I don't know about that, there's sure a lot of detailed trajectory plotting and debate going on for a nonexistent object.

It's all theoretical. What IF there was a Flight 4 on that date with those winds? Then this is where it probably would have gone and ended up given such and such assumptions.

Charles Moore, the Mogul engineer, was claiming the winds were perfect to take the hypothetical #4 to the ranch crash site. Rudiak and also Brad Sparks said Moore cheated with his numbers and calculations to make it happen. Printy, trying to defend Moore, simply recreated the Moore's erroneous calculation.

In the end, it's all academic, since Mogul records made it quite clear there never was a Mogul 4. If there had been, it would have been recorded in the records. It's a phantom balloon, and phantom balloons can't crash and leave debris fields. AF counterintelligence agents, to blunt a Congressional Roswell inquiry, created it out of thin air.

Regarding politeness, sorry if I wasn't polite, but I try to be. I agree with Gazrok on many issues but often not on Roswell, but in spite of our disagreements we have always been polite to each other, from my perspective. And one thing that I think we DO agree on about Roswell is that probably neither one of us nor anybody else is 100% sure what really happened, we are all speculating to some degree to fill in the blanks, except you debrisfield seem a lot more sure than the rest of us, and if we don't agree with you then we're "gullible". Anyway I see no reason we can't disagree yet still be polite about it and drop the ad hominems.

I didn't start the ad hominem wars. They were started by the likes of "The Shrike" whose every post was to praise himself and fellow skeptics as "critical thinkers" and disparage those who thought there might be something to the Roswell case as "gullible believers." I was making a point that insults and ridicule like that could equally apply to anyone arguing from a weak position, which I think is clearly true for the Mogul hypothesis.

I also think if one knows that military people whose job is to deceive and confuse to protect secrets (AFOSI agents--counterintelligence) wrote the Roswell report, then a true skeptic would view anything they had to say with--skepticism. My own insults about skeptical gullibility and lack of critical thinking was for accepting what was in the AF Report without question considering who wrote it. There was very clear lying and use of propaganda techniques, such as manufacturing nonexistent balloon flights. How can a real critical thinker argue that a nonexistent balloon could possibly explain anything?

reply to post by Monts


I wonder if the officials will ever just come out and say, "Um..Yea. A spacecraft did indeed crash in Roswell and we have spent the last 70 years reverse engineering their technology." i doubt it. I have spent a lot of time out in the desert in NM at night. You can see the night sky very well out there. (high altitude, low humidity, no lights, low pollution) Sadly, i have never seen anything out of the ordinary. i think that i would like to see something of an extra terrestrial nature because i am already about 99% sure of the existence of that sort. maybe one day...

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
And one thing that I think we DO agree on about Roswell is that probably neither one of us nor anybody else is 100% sure what really happened, we are all speculating to some degree to fill in the blanks.

Anyway I see no reason we can't disagree yet still be polite about it and drop the ad hominems.

The best quote of this thread so far....

The Shrike please take notes.

what about virgins? that fits perfectly
nah but seriously this is virtually proof of what we all already knew, just didnt have quite enough evidence

The second crash site given by the Majestic documents is at lat 33 40 31 lon 106 28 29.

Google earthing this gives it at almost the exact location of the Trinity site. If so I find it hard to believe that no references are made to that fact in any other memos etc.

My pc is very slow and keeps hanging, can anyone else determine whether these coordinates match the location descriptions provided by supposed Roswell witnesses to the actual disc (and bodies) site (not the Foster ranch site - location 1) ?

Originally posted by XtraTL

Originally posted by debrisfield

My main comment here is that many of these readings would be invalidated by lack of proper letter counts. E.g., the words that follow the "disc" word at the start of the second paragraph are of lengths, 4, 4, 4, 3, not 6, 7, 2, 13.

My second comment is that for a reading to be considered possibly valid, it has to make sense. It should be grammatical and has to work with the words, phrases and sentences before and after it and in the context of the historical circumstances under which the message was written. Thus I wouldn't expect to see "UFO" in the memo since the term hadn't be invented yet and the same for "MJ-12", as some have done. Such anachronisms are good indications of bad readings.

It turns out I missed a line when I wrote up. There's the line that goes:

"~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ parts for further analysis" (or something similar)

However, you may be right that my letter counts for the following line are incorrect. I find it quite hard to tell how many letters each word has. That seems to be something other people express more certainty on.

I think I count 6, 7, 2, 7+, 5/6, which is fine for ".... appear covered up ~~~~~~~ negate", but I'm not so certain I am reading that correctly now.

I'm relatively convinced the first line says "and the ~~~~~~~ of the wreck you collected to the". Some words that might fit are: pictures, viewers, victims, vessels, remains, jetsams, persons, sensors. Some make sense in context, others don't.

I agree with your other comments entirely.

I would love to have the time to really analyse this message properly and come to a conclusion as to how much of it can actually be read with any confidence. I think a surprising amount.

However, to me there does not appear to be anything particularly striking on the paper. Admittedly, if it said "victims of the wreck" that would be mildly interesting. Unfortunately it is not at all clear to me that this is what it says.

Even if it could be read, it's not going to be held out for a newspaper camera to photograph if it is top secret. My best guess is it is a memo that says something along the lines that the parts should be collected and sent off for analysis and that if anyone from the media or public asks about it that it should be referred to as a weather balloon and that its best not to contradict what has been said.

1. The analysis of this memo is ongoing and involves computer enchancement and computer analysis. Human guessing should not be an option and multiple computer calculated outcomes should be produced.

2. You`re saying, and I quote: "Even if it could be read, it's not going to be held out for a newspaper camera to photograph if it is top secret." Are you seriously indicating that military personel or goverment officials are never prone to mistakes?

Especially mistakes that make them possible to disclose 60 years into the future because of technology breakthrough.

3. You can guess all you want, it won`t help, it shouldn`t be a human guessing game. It`s more like decoding the type of typewriter being used, extrapolating the text type, running the dictionary through the same, enchancing the image, then looking for 97-99% matches and creating multiple outcomes of text. All by computer analysis.

Originally posted by Whateva69
Of all the things on the memo this cought my attention MJ-12
The Illustrated History of MJ-12

An interesting edit by Johnnyanonymous in that 2009 thread, he is looking for info on why the poster should think that the FBI say MJ12 is bogus, That's exactly what they do say in the released files??

reply to post by smurfy
You're talking about this from the FBI where they wrote "BOGUS" all over it and stated it's bogus?
Majestic 12 1/12/98 - FBI — FOIA

I see some words in the memo like "DISC" that everyone talks about. But where does it say MJ-12?

I'm not seeing that.

reply to post by TomJoad


Have just finished Area 51, by Ann Jacobsen. The following is documented by persons who worked there years ago and have now spoken freely after info was de-classified. recall the Roswell incident ? Well, it happened and was covered up to avoid panic. Here is what happened:


AREA 51

There was the crashed craft that had been sent by Stalin- with

its Russian writing stamped, or embossed, in a ring around the

inside of the craft. So far, the EG&G engineers were told, no one

working on the project when it had been headquartered at Wright

Patterson Air Force Base had been able to discern what made Stalin’s

craft hover and fly. Not even the German Paperclip scientists

who had been assigned to assist. So the crashed craft was job number

one. Reverse engineer it, Vannevar Bush said. Take it apart and

put it back together again. Figure out what made it fly.

But there was the second engineering problem to solve, the one

involving the child-size aviators. To understand this, the men were

briefed on what it was they were dealing with. They had to be.

They were told that they, and they alone, had a need-to-know

about what had happened to these humans before they were put

the craft and sent aloft. They were told that seeing the bodies would

be a shocking and disturbing experience. Because two of the aviators

were comatose but still alive, the men would have to transfer .

into a Jell-O-like substance and stand them upright in two tubular

tanks, attached to a life-support system. Sometimes, their mouths

opened, and this gave the appearance of their trying to speak. Remember,

the engineers were told, these humans are in a comatose state.

They are unconscious; their bodies would never spark back to life.

Once, the children had been healthy humans. Not anymore.

They were about thirteen years old. Questions abounded. What

made their heads so big? Had their bodies been surgically manipulated

to appear inhuman, or did the children have genetic deformities? And what about their haunting, oversize eyes? The engineers

were told that the children were rumored to have been kidnapped by

Dr. Josef Mengele, the Nazi madman who, at Auschwitz and elsewhere

was known to have performed unspeakable experimental surgical

procedures mostly on children, dwarfs, and twins. The engineers

learned that just before the war ended, Josef Menge1e made a deal

with Stalin. Stalin offered Mengele an opportunity to continue his

work in eugenics-the science of improving a human population by

controlled breeding to increase desirable, heritable characteristics-

'in secret, in the Soviet Union after the war. The engineers were told

that this deal likely occurred just before the war's end, in the winter of

1945, when it was clear to many members of the Nazi Party, including

Mengele, that Nazi Germany would lose the war and that its top

commanders and doctors would be tried and hanged for war crimes.

In Josef Mengele's efforts to create a pure, Aryan race for Hitler,

at Auschwitz and elsewhere, he conducted experiments on

people he considered subhuman so as to breed certain features out .

Mengele's victims included Jewish children, Gypsy children, and

people with severe physical deformities. He removed parts of chil-

ren's craniums and replaced them with bones from larger, adult

skulls. He removed and transplanted eyeballs, and injected people

with chemicals that caused them to lose their hair. On Mengele's

instruction, an Auschwitz inmate, a painter named Dina Babbitt,

made comparative drawings of the shapes of heads, noses, mouths,

and ears of people before and after the grotesque surgeries Mengele

performed. Another inmate doctor forced to work for Mengele,

named Dr. Martina Puzyna, recounted how Mengele had her keep

detailed measurements of the shapes and sizes of children's body

parts, casting those of crippled children-particularly their hands

and heads-in plaster molds. When Mengele left Auschwitz, on

January 17, 1945, he took the documentation of his medical experiments

with him. According to his only son, Rolf, Mengele was

still in possession of his medical research documents after the war.

The EG&G engineers were told that part of Joseph Stalin's

offer to Josef Mengele stated that if he could create a crew of grotesque,

child-size aviators for Stalin, he would be given a laboratory

in which to continue his work. According to what the engineers

were told, Mengele held up his side of the Faustian bargain and

provided Stalin with the child-size crew. Joseph Stalin did not.

Mengele never took up residence in the Soviet Union. Instead, he

lived for four years in Germany under an assumed name and then

escaped to South America, where he lived, first in Argentina and

then in Paraguay, until his death in 1979.

When Joseph Stalin sent the biologically and/or surgically reengineered children in the craft over New Mexico hoping it would land there, the engineers were told Stalin’s plan was for the children to be mistaken for visitors from Mars. He hoped for panic !

reply to post by aero56


Somehow or other it has been my assumption for quite a while that this is roughly what happened. It vaguely agrees with the FBI file which is supposedly a fake and corresponds to another event (the Silas Newton affair) I think.

I definitely don't believe that it was space aliens. But I had read about the rewiring of people that had been done around that time to make them appear alien and supposed that this is what had happened at Roswell.

Of course one will probably never know. The military claim to have released all records on this and it just doesn't show up. So one has to explain that if one wishes to accept this particular explanation.

I personally cannot imagine a reason for covering up something like this all these years and continuing to lie about it. So I have to consider the possibility that they are not lying and that it was indeed a crashed balloon.

Except that her story is ludicrous, her sources unproven, and the theory laughable.

Why would you take that work of fiction seriously?

reply to post by Monts


i think you will find it states both disk at 4.44
and disc at 2.52 :up
still think this is good so thanks for that op starflag





:

I'm still not sure what to make of this. I'd love to get my hands on the software being used to check this — does anyone know -exactly- what was used? Supposedly, it takes known letters, and figures out the the possible words that could be created with them. Then from what I remember, it takes the words and figures out the sentences as makes sense — or combines them (most likely letters with most likely words that would make sense next to each other).

I think the process and the software used was not well explained - I'd like to hear more on this in particular.

It would seemthat this memo not only CONFIRMS ROSWELL........BUT
also CONFIRMS A SECOND SITE...........
The idea that they used RADAR waves to bring down the saucers, may not be far from the mark......
The military certainly would attempt to get a saucer by any means, and they had the state of NM covered with radars of many descriptions....also a lot of sightings were common there at the time.....
Fort Worth texas may be a base that hasnt been investigated thoroughly in this regards as well....why send the bodies there?
All great stuff bringing up a host of new questions and thoughts...!
great post!