Islamification of Britain.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Well would you disband the Beth Din?? or is it that you would not want to mess with the Jews. Islam is a damn sight more than Jihadistst. In fact there are modereate moslems in the UK and in America. Your attitude is one of cultural represession as these people will claim all other religions have freedom of expression so why clamp down on theirs. No one is asking you or me to join Islam. So how will you clamp down on Islam? We know that you would not do anything outside of the web, So you will use the state to clamp down on Islam. And then you will cry "Statism" when the state clamps down uon you or tell you how to bring up your kid. This is why I ask you about multiculturlism. I say leave the moslems alone but go after the Fundies in a manner that that does not alienate the ordinary moslems.

I think you are a new convert to Atheism and are a bit evangelical. Have you thought out the war on Terror????How would you stop the war??

How is Sharia law a direct contradiction of free speech?? Where did you get that Idea from. is it from stoning and beheadings in Iran? If so you failed to read or understand my view that it should be within the framework of UK law. Did you know that stonings to death and beheading is illegal under UK law.

Aftet they get rid of Islam they will surely come for my religion.

I agree that Sharia law is against secular society. One aspect of multicultural is freedom of cultures to follow their own religions within UK law. I do not want a secular society or any other monochrome vision of society.

I do not want Islamic libel laws enforced in Britian becuae they contravene UK law. Some of the greatest art on the planet is religious.

reply to post by tiger5


America and UK enforce separation of church from state; they ARE secular goverments. If they were not secular and run by church homosexuals would not have the rights they do, women would still be opressed.

Freedom FROM religion also means freedom to practice religion as long as it doesn't encroach on state business or affect free speech. I.e if i wanted to draw Muhammed the prophet in Sattire form, i should damn-right be able to.

There no such thing as Evangelical Atheism, you're either an Atheist or not, you either lack the belief in God or you don't. I am against religion, whether i believed in a personal God or not, i still think religion is nonsense, i have the freedom to say this, you have the freedom to defend it, but don't attack "Atheism" this is not against religion, it's the just the stance that you lack a belief in God.

I go further, I'm an anti-theist, i think it is immature, child-like, and i find it hard to believe that grown adults still believe in this nonsense. People are good without God and there are many secular charities out there doing great things.

Stop the war on terrorism? I think it's more about education, i don't want our goverment to restrict our rights any further in the name of "National Security". I think we should stop by educating the world, educating Extremists, if anything the "moderate" Muslims as they call themselves should be out protesting against Extremism, they should show they are peaceful.

Unfortunately, i still have a problem with Moderate muslims, because although there scripture is so obviously against non-believers, and does express ideas of Martyrdom and Jihad, the moderates still claim it is innocent and a peaceful religion.

To me, it's smells like the Hitler youth, and children and indoctrinated here in the UK and especially in the Middle East, i'd fear for my life over there if i declared myself an Atheist.

Sorry to burst all you anti-muslim's bubbles, but, people are free to practise you're own religions. Read the hadiths please.

reply to post by RimDaas


and we are free to practice our non-religion and we have freedom of speech that can allow us to protest religion if we want to. Religion is not exempt from criticism. Thanks. You havn't burst my bubble at all.

I'm not just anti-muslim, i'm anti-nonsense, that goes with Nazism, Spiritual claims, Fortune Tellers, Mediums, The BnP party, etc. etc. Anything that is stupid, i will stand up and say why i think it is stupid.

reply to post by RimDaas


hi rimdaas
Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

this looks like the Quran is making a liar out of you

Originally posted by racasan
reply to post by RimDaas

 

hi rimdaas
Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

this looks like the Quran is making a liar out of you

edit on 16-1-2011 by racasan because: just to fix something

Can you please give me the whole surah please? I don't want people picknig out random phrases which aren't finished.

reply to post by RimDaas

2.39. But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein.

2.161. Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- on them is Allah.s curse, and the curse of angels, and of all mankind;

2.190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

2.192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

2.216. Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

2.257. Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).

3:110. Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.

3:118. O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.

3.141. Allah's object also is to purge those that are true in Faith and to deprive of blessing Those that resist Faith.

3.151 Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

3.157. And if ye are slain, or die, in the way of Allah, forgiveness and mercy from Allah are far better than all they could amass.

Direct quotes from the Quran:

ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (9:3)

O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred... (8:65)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah...And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah's curse be on them; how they are turned away!" (Koran 9:29-30)

And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah (8:39)

reply to post by RimDaas


Hi rimdaas

Ok here’s the thing, as far as I’m concerned you’re probably a good person and I’m will to bet the vast majority of other muslims are all round good eggs, but even you cannot deny there are muslims who interpret the koran in an aggressive way, and who can prove what they say using the koran and other islamic books.

So my questions are:
Why should none-believers listen to what you say?

Aren’t none-believers more likely to notice to those who make islam a threat?

Would your time not be better spent trying to promote you kittens and rainbows version of islam to dark sided muslims?

reply to post by racasan


First of all, please do not call yourself a non believer. A muslim just means a believer in god. A person who acheives oneness in god will go to heaven.
Why listen to me? Because at this moment, us muslims are being branded as monsters. Bloodthirsty beasts. Bombers. And why should you believe me? Because I believe, as a muslim, I should not lie, even if my sources are incorrect, I want to give what I truly believe.

Originally posted by RimDaas
reply to post by racasan

 

First of all, please do not call yourself a non believer. A muslim just means a believer in god. A person who acheives oneness in god will go to heaven.

No I’m definitely a none-believer – I don’t do religion and I definitely don’t do yours

Why listen to me? Because at this moment, us muslims are being branded as monsters. Bloodthirsty beasts. Bombers. And why should you believe me? Because I believe, as a muslim, I should not lie, even if my sources are incorrect, I want to give what I truly believe.

Good answer, but how does that help none believers deal with the aggressive faction of islam?

Another question if you don’t mind:
I’m sure you’re aware that religion is in a rapid decline in the west and that the west has had a very unhappy history with the abrahamic religions

in your opinion how much of the above is colouring the west’s reaction to islam

You see I can state large chunks of the bible that are offensive especially Leviticus. The Bible justified slavery, the oppression of women and Gays. Yet many do not support these offensive elements in the bible.


There is thankfully a difference betwen what is stated in the Bible and how Xtianity is practiced. I can there for extend a similar courtesy to Islam.

reply to post by awake_and_aware



Actually the UK is a monarchy with a very laid back monarch. The Queen is the head of state and is the head of the Church of England. One of Prince Charles's titles isdefender of Faith(s).


Yes you are an Evangelical atheist. As I see it you evangelical atheists pop up and what do you do? You start preaching atheism. If I hadn’t threatened to report you on what were off topi posts would have stayed preaching your evangelical atheistic agenda without making any relevance to the thread. Go back to the first posts you made. I have noticed other evangelical atheists in the paranormal forum in clear contravention to the T & Cs. There is nothing difficult to understandabout atheism. It is old hat and a one-trick pony. Evangelical Atheists preach atheism.


Your views on educating the world are not distinct and also who asked the USA ( a singularly miseducated country despite its wealth) to go and relinquish its position as global policeman to be global educator? We can agree on the National security excess. Wait until this threat of fundamental Islam passes and the laws and structures remain to further reduce our freedoms.

Your comments on making moderate Islam police or check extremist Islam can only work in a multicultural space and note one where people like you blindly attack. To call Islam “retarded” is hardly a rallying cry for Islamic moderates to loudly denounce the fundamentalists. Again I must ask you whether or not you have thought anything out in detail. Atheism must be a tiny subject. .

Look in your bible there is a huge difference between what is written in the Bible and what is practiced. The same applies to Islam.

I repeat there will be no victory over Islam unless hearts and minds are won.

Here's my take on it.

I do not want Islam to become the main faith of Britain.

That isn't a racist statement, it isn't one from me as a disbeliever in what religion speaks of, I just don't like the idea that first of all fundamentalists are discrediting the good nature of the majority of Muslims (and we all know fundamentalism can be dangerous, just look at the fundamentalist Christians in America's Bible Belt) and second, for a nation such as Britain with such a diverse clash of cultures, to have one predominant religion would be crazy.

People in the papers on the letters pages cry out that "we were a Christian country before these Muslims came in". And? Muslims, Jews and other faiths came in, made our society multicultural and therefore it shouldn't be a Christian country any more, we should embrace all faiths (yes, even Jedi since that's been a rapidly growing religion in the UK in recent years).

Conclusion, one faith "ruling" over all others is wrong on the others for making theirs out to feel inferior. Also, it's the troublemakers who misinterpret their faith's teachings (again, not just Muslims) that should be targeted so lets not tar everyone with the same brush. It's like saying all people from Liverpool are stupid, ugly neanderthals based on judging Wayne Rooney instead of the wider society of Liverpudlians.

reply to post by tiger5


Despite the UK being ruled my a monarchy, we still have a democratic state, we arn't run by "GOD's" law any more.

You obviously have never heard arguments against Theism or studied the philosophical and logical fallacy of God.

You call Atheism tiny, that it bears no content; you are correct; Atheism is a simple lack of belief in a supernatural deity.

Anti-Theism, on the other hand is something that i advocate, because unlike other arenas of (debate, science, philosophy, medicine) Religion demands freedom from criticism.. that because it's a faith, it deserves automatic respect.

I feel Theism is logically and intellectually bankrupt and false, not just Islam. No one knows what the creator/source of reality is, and the creators of the QuRan were less likely to know than we do now. I have read the scriptures, read journalists crique of the QuRan, i have looked at history and current affairs and i see nothing but pain and despair, and all for some false hope if you just believe in an ancient story.

Thanks for your comments on Atheism but that really is a losing battle. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a God. Atheism is not even equal to the belief in a God because Theists make the claim without evidence - we say there isn't evidence to make a claim. I believe religion to be a great cause for evil and wrongdoing in the world.

And it's plane in sight, even a child can see through the nonsense, "send suicide bomber to heaven for killing, let children starve in africa" - LOL Allah, you nice chap, you terrific chap.

reply to post by awake_and_aware



Well you seem to have ignored the op again. I will take it that you have conceded my previous points. Most of your post is of no relevance to your evangelical atheism.

Let me reinform you that the UK has a clear and present risk of terror from Isalmic extremists. My suggstions have a certain logical superiority over yours. I am trying to resolve the issue of multiculturalism and using it to win hearts and minds. yet again all you represent is how to imporant your Atheistic sentiments (which border on religion) are to you.

Good luck in your future endeavors. I hope you do not derail this thread.

reply to post by tiger5

Let me reinform you that the UK has a clear and present risk of terror from Isalmic extremists. My suggstions have a certain logical superiority over yours.

Some of the extremist come from moderate communities. I see religion as the problem, as i've stated there is no central authority in Islam like the Pope, maybe the Muslims should have a central figure so he can speak out against the extremists, because i see no Muslims in the UK protesting and speaking against Extremists.

At least the Pope can condemn despicable acts so that people have some sense of control and direction, and this is coming from an Atheist who thinks the Pope is evil, he stated condoms were worse than aids.

That's my solution, as i've said i would never condemn freedom of expression that includes practicing religion. But something evidently has to change within Islam, whether it be the deletion of hatred invoking passages or having a central figure to condemn and assert appropriate behaviour for all Muslims, instead of letting extremist cults form.

Look at the figures, there is more Militant Islamic groups compared to Christian "terrorists". Someone needs to stand with us Atheists and condemn the extremist for their wicked actions, maybe the Muslims should Unite with us Atheists and standing up and condemning it.

ONe of the problems with immigrants is that the immigration is process is anxiety-ridden. underthose circumstances there is a perfectly reasonable need to bring familiar practices from their homelands to the UK. That is fine. I have seen the good and bad Brit abroad.

Anyway I digress

Now the immigrants are often educated but perhaps have never seen their culture as others see it. THey see the Australians in London having their culture. They see everyone else having their culture and enjoying it so they think why not theirs? Fine and dandy Unless you are a moslem. This would seem very unfair especially if they break no laws and pay taxes

We have a history of religious war in the UK. No one has blamed Xtianity for the IRA or thei protestant counterparts. Again why?

reply to post by tiger5


Again, the controversy in Northern Ireland and in England is a direct consequence of religious belief. Protestant vs Catholic prejudices.

In the Middle East; The Palestinian conflict between the Muslims and the Jews; they were actually promised the lands in their scriptures, by their own Gods; this is so obviously the cause of the controversy.

These are just a few religious conflicts that have occurred through history and are present today. And to say religion isn't the cause seems to be almost absurd.

I think it is of the greatest hypocrisy that someone would criticise Atheism for being intolerant of religion, let me tell you it's not just Atheists that are intolerant of religion, Many Deists and Pantheists alike have major concerns with the core belief structure of religion.

I see religion as a direct threat the stability of civilisation. Each religion preaches exclusivity which inherently leads to prejudice or a superiority complex, this is no good for any progressing society. There is evidence of the harm religion has caused throughout history and even written in it's own scriptures.

reply to post by awake_and_aware

Allcultures should be respected and allowed to flourish provided they break no laws in their host country. everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Even Islamists are still innocent until proven guilty.