Religious Dogma is Speculation. Discuss

Originally posted by RSF77
reply to post by Titen-Sxull

 

I would have taken that one, but judging by what he posted I decided he probably didn't have anything to say that would make any sense.

You should internalize the motto of this very website.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by AllIsOne

 

Not at all, i'm trying to emancipate my brothers from an absolute dictatorship; mono-theistic religion.

God is the Kim Jong-Ill of mono-theistic religion. An absolute dictator, because it's written differently by man, it causes prejudice and patriotism to that God, people hate other believers or non-believers.

Anti-Theism isn't a schism, I don't tell people how to live their life, call them a sinner, act like i'm better than my fellow human beings. I'm just fighting the clear idiocy and infectious nature of the religion, and it's un-true metaphysical claims.

I fight in the name of freedom, not zeolousy.

Thanks for your kind comments though, learn what Anti-Theism is about, it's not a cult, it's not a schism.

I've said why i'm an Anti-Theist and it's not cause i'm arrogant, and it's not as farcical and non-sensical as reasons for being a Racist, Sexist, Homophobe.

My issues with religion are much deep routed than some idiotic myoptic fahcist babbel without reason; like racism for example.

edit on 18/12/10 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)

Atheism, or Theism: your are still playing in their sandbox ;-)

reply to post by AllIsOne


The assertion of Atheism is the lack of belief in Theism. The reasoning is founded on the lack evidence.

Theists make the positive assertion that God exists? We ask where they got the evidence of this God AND his desires.

The burden of proof is on the theist.

I don't believe in Astrology because there is no scientific evidence that celestial bodies can dictate the future events of human affairs.

I guess im Anti-Astrology, but there is no word for it. I'm anti-witch, and anti-tooth fairy. There really shouldn't be a word of a lack of belief in God. But Atheism is the name given to those who reason there is no evidence to this theory.

reply to post by AllIsOne


I'm offering my fellow brothers and sisters and different opinion and stance that states i am humble enough to understand that no human can prove or assert the existence of a creator and his desires.. I care not that i'm in their "sandbox". That we are all (currently) agnostic in regards to the scientific understanding of our existince, we therefore should treat "Theism" with great suspicion.

I'm happy that i could potentially change someones mind and worldview. Because it's an important debate that separates two mindsets; one arrogant and absolute the other humble and open-minded. It's up for people to decide which of those applies to their beliefs and reasoning; Atheism or Theism.

I cannot believe that there is ANOTHER thread of this manner. Don't any of you hard-heads ever get tired of the endless, useless sniping and boring lectures about moral and scientific superiority? BOTH SIDES of these debates are useless. I have never, ever,ever, ever seen anyone come back to one of these threads and say:

" Hey, thanks so much for helping me see the truth. I am now convinced of the existence/non-existence of a god/deity/higher power. I have totally changed my life/ways, and now following the path that you helped me find. I owe it all to you and you and your powerful arguments that emanated from your keyboard. With my newfound knowledge, I can now spend the rest of my life helping others see that gods/buddha/aliens are/are not real."


I also cannot believe that I am on one of these threads again. WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME??

reply to post by jennybee35


Thanks for your valued input.

I feel this is a important debate that separates two separate world views. One arrogant and ignorant enough to assert "TRUTH" of a supernatural being, the other being the one that is humble and reasonable enough to say "We honestly don't know". Those who are claiming to know, we ask how do they know? All they can do is point to scripture and doctrine.

All humans are agnostic in regards to the creation of the universe or source of existence, and whether it's creation requires the belief in an intelligent "being". Why i am Against Theism or Anti-Theist is because those claiming to know are using a conjuring trick, and it's ignorant.

If you'd care to read my previous posts i postulate that belief in the un-provable often causes prejiduce and separation. And only reference and community in those who share this irrational belief.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Your whole, entire post is a sterling example of what I was talking about. You wanna talk about how one side is

arrogant and ignorant

and causing seperation and prejudice? May I ask just what those words of yours will do to further the unity of both sides? Really? With these words I can just see people falling in line behind you.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by AllIsOne

 

Because it's an important debate that separates two mindsets; one arrogant and absolute the other humble and open-minded. It's up for people to decide which of those applies to their beliefs and reasoning; Atheism or Theism.

edit on 18/12/10 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)

I can only guess what kind of "believers" you've been confronted with. I'm sorry for your experience, but there are others. The superiority of reason and the success of science is as narrow a path as the other side.

You've been conditioned to think that there are two separat mindsets: it's that damn sandbox I was talking about. Unfortunately it's currently only available in German, but the book "Geist, Kosmos und Physik" by Hans-Peter Dürr, a physicist, would blow your mind. Please google him. Dürr was close to Heisenberg.

Be well!

reply to post by jennybee35


Haven't seen much sniping or lecturing on this thread (your post excluded). I, for one, enjoy these types of debates because they make me think and expose me to other thoughts - both similar to mine and totally different - not because I'm trying to convert anyone.

reply to post by AllIsOne


I've been exposed to many believers, most very nice people who often don't come across as arrogant at all in our conversations. But I ask you, when I'm told that they're very sorry, but since I don't accept their deity I'm going to hell (or whatever everlasting punishment their religion calls for), is that not arrogant and absolute? What would you call it?

reply to post by jennybee35


I'm sorry, but is claiming to reveal wisdom of the creation of the universe, who and what it was created by and it's desires not arrogant and ignorant?

When you ask for another example of evidence other than the word of the Priest or the ink in the doctrines, they cannot provide me with it? I'm sorry but your God's existence is not evident.

Why should religious doctrine written by man, be considered to be derived from the creator of the universe, OR be proof of the existence of the creator itself? That logic presumes the theory of causation. Well who created the creator?

Besides, we're all Atheists, Jenny. You just believe in one more God than me.

Please tell me if i'm being impolite.

reply to post by AllIsOne


Has this physicist empircal evidence as to the existence of a Deity and proof of his/her/it's dogmatic desires relative to that of, at most, 1 of the religion's of man?

If he doesn't, i'm afraid i won't renounce my Atheism, or stand down from the point that Theism causes prejudice and arrogance, and separation of societies and culture. And is a conjured on faulty logic and irrational presumptions.

Any other arena of debate is open to challenge.We are allowed to challenge each other in ideas on politics, medicine, techology, scientific theory, but your religious theory is free from negation? I find this somewhat questionable.

Originally posted by peacevic
reply to post by AllIsOne

 

I've been exposed to many believers, most very nice people who often don't come across as arrogant at all in our conversations. But I ask you, when I'm told that they're very sorry, but since I don't accept their deity I'm going to hell (or whatever everlasting punishment their religion calls for), is that not arrogant and absolute? What would you call it?

If a Christian told me I'm going to hell I would ask him if he could spare some marshmallows ... Black mailing, threats and the "guilt thing" don't work with me.

Why do you get offended if they tell you you're going to hell? Do you have any doubts about the existence of such place?

reply to post by AllIsOne


Because it's an immoral preaching, and put simply, is fear-mongering, the essense of totalitarianism.

Teaching it to a child should be seen as wicked and immoral.

The metaphysical claims of the heaven and hell are untrue, both are equal attempts at rationalising punishment for the percieved "good" and "evil" actions of man and woman.

Apologies for answering someone elses question.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


You are been ignorant in your ignorance... what are you to say that there genetics does not allow for them to be able to see something you can not.

I will take your question in to a new subject to explain...

Oxigen and carbon...

Are you saying because you can not see oxigen and carban that neither are true... you know you breath in oxigen and breath out carbon... or do you know... you have been taugh to believe this...

Who wrote the book... how did he find they was oxigen and carbon... have you even questioned the theories or facts in which you realie so heavely on.

Now I am agnostic... such a bad label... what I really am is open to challenge anything and if I can't prove that nothing does not excist then nothing must excist... untill proven that nothing does not exist.

Beleif or faith or the search for teo... or truth... enlightenment... or nirvana or anything you percive as another realm in which to connect with is taking your instincts and running with them and letting yourself as a person tell you what is write and wrong... not facts or beleifs or anything else and just doing what you see is right.

The dangerous of this is that your wrong. But one can argue that dough will leave you not acting and instead sitting on the grass watching... because you dough what to do...

I am only agnostic because that is what people call it... you are only what ever you are because that is what people call it... The awairness does not need these labels... but it has them... so that people can better communicate using words and using physical inventions via science. If there was away in which to evolve as you put it then we should be able to tap in to it and physically fix our self... or determain everything around us and fly because we truelly understand everything perfectly. An can move atoms with our minds.... the fact is no one has the true answers.

Where still evolving and trying to find the answers.

To not believe in tarot cards is to not believe that you could make tv... go investigate it. Work out how they are fake and if they are fake or if people just want to beleive they are fake because they can't accept they could be wrong.

In other words first you must learn how to percieve truth in your own mind. Then base your views on facts you find... not just logic you have been taugh. Go and find the truth!

An maybe you can teach me it one day.

reply to post by AllIsOne


I don't get offended. I just find it contradictory to other things they claim to be - open minded, forgiving, etc. etc. In fact it usually leads to a whole other conversation which goes sorta like this:

Would you torture me for all of eternity if you had the power to do so?
Well, no, probably not.
So you are more forgiving than your god?
Well, no, he just sends you there because it hurts him to be in your presence because you haven't accepted him.
But you can be in my presence?
Well, I'm not perfect like he is.

Huh???

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by AllIsOne

 

Has this physicist empircal evidence as to the existence of a Deity and proof of his/her/it's dogmatic desires relative to that of, at most, 1 of the religion's of man?

He has a very unique view on things scientific and spiritual.

The empirical evidence thingy is always a bit tricky ---> black swan. There is so much stuff under the sun that we don't even know exists, but it does exist in ways currently unimaginable. As a nuclear physicist Prof. Dürr was chasing matter for the better part of 50 years until QM discovered that matter doesn't exist. The religious/spiritual ramifications are interesting to say the least.

reply to post by Love-will-save-us-all

You are been ignorant in your ignorance.

Explain how i am ignorant, i fail to see that i am. I'm being humble, my stance is "We simply don't know, anyone claiming to, is lying or irrationally presumptious"

Your argument involving the existence of Oxygen and Carbon....

Are you saying because you can not see oxigen and carban that neither are true...

No, i know they exist because of empirical evidence.

They exist because science has proved they do, research your theory on elements and you will learn that science has discovered the existence of the these elements using testing and probing.

Similarly, quantam effects "are not as they seem" I.e. some of the effects or "mechanics" are invisible to a human being.

We have scientific theory and maths to calculate effects and discover elements by probing nature in different ways with different tools.

Like i have said before, I am agnostic in regards to the creation of the universe, there isn't enough evidence. I am against those who claim they do know and without any evidence.

This is why i am anti-theist.

Like i have said time and time again, I cannot profess to know for certain that "GOD" does not exist, but i highly doubt that it is anything as proposed by any of man's religions.

Anyone with the metaphysical claims of God and his/her/it's desires, or even whether it HAS desires, is not speaking any truth. They are as agnostic as us.

In regards to God being "intelligent" or "caring" It is clear that the universe is violently chaotic, there is much suffering in the world, as well as much beauty. The beauty doesn't cover for the destruction, pain and suffering.

Please let me know if I my points cannot be understood.

Peace

A&A

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Yeah - I left out that aspect of it. Teachings like this tend to become perverted and lead to a group mentality that lashes out against those who disagree with them in the form of censorship, discrimination, terrorism, etc.

reply to post by peacevic


We are being as reasonable as possible though, friend. We lay our humble nature and our rational argument out on display for all to see, and ponder.