Religious Dogma is Speculation. Discuss

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Wanting to restrict something (religion) you oppose is the violation of the very thing you support, which propably is freedom. Religions and spiritual people have equal right to believe in what they want as do the atheist or whatsoever.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware

Atheism is a lack of a belief but it certainly isn't a schism and we don't discriminate, we challenge, ask questions, ask for reason.

Yea right! Then why you discriminate and make schism between theism and atheism? You lack the understanding that it is not the tool to be blamed for how it is used. I can use screwdriver to penetrate someone's lung or to screw the screw

In the end, the individuals are responsible for their actions. No one on modern days civilized cultures force you to do anything. The individuals are to blame; they choose religion, they choose how to interpret it's message, they are the actors, while religions as well as other ideologies are just - well, ideas.

-v

reply to post by v01i0

Then why you discriminate and make schism between theism and atheism?

Then surely you have an issue with the schism that a liberal minded politician might form against the despicable acts of the Nazi agenda?

I think this opression is justified. In the same way; my criticism of religion, especially the mono-theistic doctrines is more than justified.

It insults us at our basic level telling us that we need a dictator to be moral human beings.

It teaches children that evidence is not critical and that faith is more important.

It separates society and causes prejudice. "You're a jew? You won't go to "heaven" because your eating pork that Allah states as sin"

I'm not saying the good deeds done in the name of religion are bad, all i am saying is that religion is not required for them, and that religions undermines the very act themselves, that you need to be INSTRUCTED to be kind to fellow humans.

There's not a single moral act that a religious person can perform that i cannot. I have empathy, compassion and solidarity towards my fellow species, this is why we have evolved.

I really don't think you understand my point of view until you understand that religion poisons everything. I don't think we will agree or that i can convince you the destruction and idiocy religion has caused throughout history, and is still doing so.

Any more questions - i am more than happy to answer as honestly as possible.

Please before you ask anymore questions though, i suggest you watch the video on the homepage of this link;-

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Usually i am avoiding, those discussions cause they tend to end mostly on bashing others persons beliefs, But i will bite and i will state my thoughts.

Defining God


When religious people preach God, they describe "him" as a "being", as a supernatural divine designer. They BELIEVE that this "GOD" intervenes in human affairs and created the universe.

This is a dangerous claim to make without evidence, here's why i think this....

Then i suppose you have evidence that there is no God/Deity, and why people should not believe in "God"/"Deity"??

An Agnostic Anti-Theist?!


Although i am an Atheist, i cannot claim to KNOW there is no "GOD".

That´s true. You can not claim to know that there is no God, but you believe there is no God/Deity. Isn´t that a dangerous claim to make, since you have no proof/evidence either, but you simply believe??

Similarly, i cannot claim to KNOW there is a diamond buried in my back yard without investigating, without evidence.

Well, to be honest i love to find a diamond in my back yard.

In this sense; i am Agnostic in regards to "God" or in regards to the source/causation (if any) of the universe.

In this sense you are Agnostic in regards "God/Deity".

Any human who claims to know should be treated with great suspicion.

So, according to that logic, any human who claims not to know should treated with great suspicion also??

WHY is ancient dogma of man treated with respect rather than suspicion?

In my opinion is because a human being must believe in "Place a name Here". It´s something that is rooted deep inside on every human being.

Why be an Anti-Theist?


I do not respect any human who claims to know without evidence. This is why i am against Theism.

So, you simply do not respect me cause i believe??? Isn´t that hypocritical from your side, cause you do not believe?? I think that is a dangerous claim my friend, since that leads mostly to hatred. You simply forget one crucial factor. We are both Humans.

I want to make people aware that children are being taught to "believe" without evidence. That critical evidence should not suffice for them to affirm a belief. Sometimes their FAITH even over-rules evidence put forward (Evolution is one example).

No one is stopping you mate.

To be curious, to be inquizitive, to ask questions is to be human, this our pattern seeking nature, seeking reason, trying to be rational. This is why we have technology, medicine, astronomy; from testing and asking questions.

That´s true. We have all those marvelous tools, to find the answers. But those tools are useless when in comes to find the answer if there is "God/Deity".

Faith and Ignorance


This is faith. And it's the exact type of unfalsifiable nonsense as Tarot Card Reading, Astrology, Psychics.

So to have faith in something is nonsense?? Hmm.....

These charlatons hide behind the unfalsifiable nature of their claims and expect us to believe them on the basis of faith. This is what is ruining our intelligence and civilisation. They are actively teaching ignorance. And many are being fooled beacuse of this, and have become rather arrogant.

No Comment....

Again, why does this ignorance demand our respect? Should you be considered a sinner just because you challenge this ignorance?

You may not respect me, but i respect you. You simply forget that behind all the labels we are Humans.

What do you think?


Atheists, Agnostics, Deists, Theists, Pantheists - I really would appreciate your thoughts and comments and to have a polite and civil discourse here.

Thanks for reading.

Awake and Aware

I think we should stop spreading hatred, and face the fact that we are all humans.

Peace

reply to post by Seed76

I think we should stop spreading hatred, and face the fact that we are all humans

Hatred is caused by religion.

If a Christian "BELIEVES" that you will go to hell if you are a homosexual, they BELIEVE that the homosexual is a "SINNER" and they think homosexuals are less "worthy" than them. This is prejuduce.

Because these beliefs are inferred from God, many contrasting religions may never come to an agreement, and will always cause separation.

It causes me pain, that know one notices the tension between religions of different beliefs.

Look to Northern Ireland, look to Palestine and Israel, look at the religiously motived Crusades, look at the acts of martyrdom or jihad because they TRUELY BELIEVE THEY ARE GETTING A REWARD. FOR KILLING PEOPLE.

And people like you say that i am wrong to hate religion. I will defend my opinion, thanks. I'm allowed to hate who i want. I'm allowed to hate Nazis, i'm allowed to hate Homophobes, i'm allowed to hate Sexists, i'm allowed to hate racists, because religion is as illogical as any of the above beliefs i will oppose it.

Thankyou. again im happy to ask further questions as honest as i can.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Seed76

 

Why do many of these charlatons refuse to be tested in a controlled environment? Religion is in the same ball park?

edit on 17/12/10 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)

"Blessed are they who do not see, but believe."

That said, I can speak about Medjugorje, Bosnia, where 6 (kids then) have received visitations (3 still every single day) from the Blessed Virgin Mary since June 1981-
They have been subjected to every test on earth and there is no "scientific" explanation for their reports or the state of ecstasy they are in while the visitations last.

Not trying to debunk, convert, or change your thinking, as I believe that nobody's opinion of this subject is every changed from what they read online, just letting you know that in this instance, testing has been done, encouraged, and submitted to, with no bias- most of the "testers" where atheist, agnostic, what have you.

www.medjugorje.com...

reply to post by thegoodearth

"Blessed are they who do not see, but believe."

I can relate to this in a certain way. For example, quantam mechanics works in mysterious ways, things are not what they seem, scientists have proved this using critical observation of photon patterns etc.

They have been subjected to every test on earth and there is no "scientific" explanation for their reports or the state of ecstasy they are in while the visitations last.

They may not have scientific evidence for their state of ecstasy but that does not stand in favour of what is being claimed here.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Well... it is a matter of how one views it...

They report the messages from the Virgin Mary, and the messages are about God, Jesus Christ, etc...

If you believe that 6 teenagers (5 actually, as one was 10 when it began) in a very poor area of Bonia could be induced by a trance that cannot be scientifically explained, and the messages imparted are some kind of mass hallucination that cannot be explained by science, then I suppose it wouldn't support the existence of God.

Edit to add- again, the post was intended to show that not every "visionary" refuses testing.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


I maintain that religions are not to blame. Same goes with Hitler and all other ideologies. If people - the individuals - would've been more sensible, Hitler's talk would've fallen to "deaf" ears so to speak. But since people themselves are waiting for external authorship usually both political and religious, these lunatics will always find someone to appeal on.

I say last time: it is us ourselves whom choose whether we follow some external authorship. You can reset all the religions and ideologies, yet they will emerge over and over again until people themselves becomes in their senses and somekind of psychological revolution takes place. You, no one, no ideology or religion, no philosophy or policy can make world better place before individuals carry the responsibility.

It certainly seems that we all are eager to follow somekind of ideology, philosophy or other creed that sounds fit to us. You too my friend - atheism is not a new invention and it is no better ideology in this specific sense compared to others. You just happen to follow that kind of though and ideology; believers follow their religious dogma - it as all the same at bottom.

This is all very simple and it is also true. Take a moment to examine and try to view it without prejudices. I am sure you are intelligent enough to understand, if you try. The ideologies, even many people fall to their lure, are not to be blamed, because people in themselves are weak. And let's say that you could rip all religions out of existence, what would have you done? You would've created another kind of facism, limiting the freedom to believe. And ask yourself too, what do you believe? (I mean not religion and god, but still, surely you believe many kind of stuff that isn't necessarily real).

-v

reply to post by awake_and_aware

Hatred is caused by religion.

Hatred is caused by humans, that getting polarized from those persons in power, that using religion as a tool of Destruction.

If a Christian "BELIEVES" that you will go to hell if you are a homosexual, they BELIEVE that the homosexual is a "SINNER" and they think homosexuals are less "worthy" than them. This is prejuduce.

Because these beliefs are inferred from God, many contrasting religions may never come to an agreement, and will always cause separation.

We are all going to be judged according our deeds, and not according our labels.

It causes me pain, that know one notices the tension between religions of different beliefs.

Look to Northern Ireland, look to Palestine and Israel, look at the religiously motived Crusades, look at the acts of martyrdom or jihad because they TRUELY BELIEVE THEY ARE GETTING A REWARD. FOR KILLING PEOPLE.

It causes me also pain and sorrow my friend. That is human nature at it´s finest killing and more killing, hatred and more hatred. It seems that we will never learn. Just take a look at history and you will know the future. It´s really sad friend. Really sad.

And people like you say that i am wrong to hate religion. I will defend my opinion, thanks. I'm allowed to hate who i want. I'm allowed to hate Nazis, i'm allowed to hate Homophobes, i'm allowed to hate Sexists, i'm allowed to hate racists, because religion is as illogical as any of the above beliefs i will oppose it.

Not all my friend. I am simply saying that we should stop throwing oil in the fire. People like me wants peace. People like me wants that people should stop hiding behind labels. People like me wants that we should respect each other.

Thankyou. again im happy to ask further questions as honest as i can.

You are welcome my friend. Always a pleasure to talk.

Peace

reply to post by thegoodearth


And you are not in the least bit suspicious of this story? If you are not, that amazes me. It really does.

Do you not have questions running through your head? How did they know it was Mary? Were their parents religious? Did this have any effect? What words were spoke? If it was english? Are you sure that the original "Mary" was even said to be english? For wasn't the bible originally written in arabic and translated many times throughout the medievil era? King James Bible? Surely she would not be english?

Again, this is a "personal" experience, this cannot be trusted as critical evidence in order to assert a belief.

It's like a ghost hunter claming he saw a ghost, so what? Still no scientist, theologian, doctor has ever detected any evidence for this.

We are all going to be judged according our deeds, and not according our labels.

Look it's not a case of labels! Understand my point, it's a case of prejuduce because of your belief system that is causing conflict between peoples of this earth.

Allah says eat pork, a Muslim sees someone eating pork, and assumes he is superior, and that the pork eater is an evil sinner. These are the type of prejuduces that religion causes because of the doctrine of their specific God, which is all nonsense, who says pork is bad? did God really say that?.Evidence? I doubt it.

It causes people to want to convert other people because they don't think the non-believers or believers of other religions are doing "God's will"

How else can i get you to understand my point. It's nonsense, it's hearsay, it's myth, written by ancient humans that didn't even know they existed in a solar system let alone who or what created their existence. It's causing dogma, hatred. It's causing despicable things like martyrdom and jihad, in which some thinks they are "divinely warranted" by God to blow peoeple up or to preach hatred of homosexuals in the street.

Please read my words and understand my point. Religion is poision, it is false, these silly beliefs are causing separation and retardation of our planet.

Science in the western world has done more for humanity in 100 years than religion has ever done for the past 2000 years.

I will continue to answer your questions honestly and i will re-quote myself if needs be.

I reccommend, like i have reccomended before to watch this video and at least understand my frustration.

www.youtube.com...

Peace

reply to post by thegoodearth


Well that can be explained scientifically very easily.

One word: Psychology.

They most likely experienced indoctrinated religious visions. For example, Krishnamurti reported (in his autobiography) that he experienced visions of Brahmic religion during his childhood. After he was adopted to the Theosophical Society, he experienced visions of their ilk.. Some people are just capable of "seeing thoughts", as reported by C.G. Jung:

Among primitives, for instance, the imago, the psychic reverberation of the sense-perception, is so strong and so sensuously coloured that when it is reproduced as a spontaneous memory-image it sometimes even has the quality of an hallucination. Thus when the memory-image of his dead mother suddenly reappears to a primitive, it is as if it were her ghost that he sees and hears.

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, part 6: Psychological Types.

-v

PS. It doesn't necessarily require unstable personality or mental illness to be able to see "visions".. I think that many great inventors and scientist have had vision-like experiences when they've had breakthroughs. It is a capability of certain type of psyche.

reply to post by v01i0


Again, as I said, I am not trying to convince you of authenticity.
I am just posting that not all "visionaries" refuse testing.

but you believe there is no God/Deity. Isn´t that a dangerous claim to make, since you have no proof/evidence either, but you simply believe??

Well i can't define God, but if it reference to the man made God created, it would be the God that alledgedly is omnipotent, that he intervenes in human affairs, and that he has a special plan for us humans. And i think this is nonsense and goes against the evidence in nature.

I look at the universe and reality a lot differently. For example, scientists KNOW for a fact that the andromeda galaxy is on a collision cause with ours, that will, in many years to come, destroy and devastate our gallaxy killing much of everything, planets, solar systems. Not before the Sun burns out and boils our oceans and our lands and it is too chaotic for life to form.

I ask you; what kind of God designed this? Was it your God?

Evolution. God didn't "intelligently" design these constructs. We have proved that evolution has no forsight, it can't go back to the drawing board, life steadily changes according to enviroment and its shaped from advantageous mutations from reproduction. This isn't the work of the God as described in the doctrines.

"God made earth in 6 days, then rested on the 7th" - Well the concept of a "day" is the earth spinning on its axis 360 degrees. If the earth was not yet made, how much or how little is a day? How did God know of day? Man created the word day to describe the passing of time from night into day.

This is why i won't believe in the superstition of your intelligent holy creator, because its nonsense and hearsay.

If God created our reality, who created God? and who created that God? and please spare me the God is everything nonsense its a fallacy that i think is unintelligble.

That is my case, it is recorded here. Read it or risk repeating your questions arguments.

reply to post by thegoodearth


Okay

And I just pointed out that these experiences can be explained. I have had few experiences myself - unfortunately they have not included st. Mary so they're not comparable

But I know where these experiences come from - they come from our collective consciousness and from individual unconsciousness. At least in my case. You know, I am raving mad individual

-v

reply to post by v01i0


Hey, we're all mad. Look out at the universe; it certainly is mad and chaotic - It's not surprising, that thus we are mad, as are we not a construct of it? And it's this madness that makes us beautiful, the madness and beauty of the universe.

Hubble telescope: life changing. mind-opening.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Yes it is very beatiful and amazing. Perhaps it seems so chaos-like to us, because we don't know all the causes and effects that is behind it's constant movement. But we have to admit, that on the next day we might be wiped of like hill of ants in the earthquake.

Maybe some will attribute that to god, but I tend to think that through the universe we are in fact the universe. Well off topic - I am off to bed. Thank you for the interesting thread

-v

reply to post by v01i0


Thanks for sharing your opinions. Indeed the universe is mysterious, like you say; maybe we can uncover some more of it's mysteries - then it may not seem so chaotic

Peace

reply to post by awake_and_aware

Look it's not a case of labels! Understand my point, it's a case of prejuduce because of your belief system that is causing conflict between peoples of this earth.

I understand your point very clear my friend. But instead of investing energy to fuel hatred, we should invest our energy in helping other people in need. We should start respecting each other and treat each other as a human being.

I reccommend, like i have reccomended before to watch this video and at least understand my frustration.

I have watched the video friend. And i understand your frustration friend. But to be frustrated is not a good thing. Frustration leads to prejudice and prejudice leads to hatred. Here is a video that states my point that instead of spreading hatred we should help those that are in need whenever we can. Behind all labels and ideologies that separate us we are all "Humans" and we are sharing the same world. I hope you can understand my point.

I will continue to answer your questions honestly and i will re-quote myself if needs be.

Thank you my friend. It´s always pleasure to speak to with you.

Peace

To me, Dogma = Literalism without direct experience of said topic.

To me, experience is number 1. Why, because to experience God is something that is beyond words, more real than the everyday reality that I was born into. It took a decade to convince me through direct experience that God is definitely a living reality without definition, borders, beyond words, and greater than anything I've ever experienced. It is absolute truth, experienced directly!!!!!

But then after the above said, people come in and start dissecting, labeling, branding, extracting, and completely taking out of context what the undefinable living Absolute truth really is.

To me it has been all about "experience". Certain folks like buddha, jesus, mystics, hermits, monks say its real. These folks went to the extremes to see what is on the other end, i.e. 40 days alone in the desert fasting, years sitting under a tree until the absolute truth is revealed, years of 12 hours a day mediation, etc.

So I know that to see what "they" saw, will also and has also, required these super efforts to break thru cultural and global psychological programming to see if there is anything on the other end. There surely is something there, and it costs you your very own identity and seperateness to taste that.

Everyone else to me who has something to say about this topic, especially having not undergone super efforts such as these to see if there is anything on the other side, is merely a window shopping speculating sideline spectator and is recycling ideas and theories from the limits of world/cultural/peer/parent induced global and psychological programing.

For example, some say "I am the body and the mind". Lets flip that around and say the body and mind is in me. Its simple things as investigating every possible perspective, and all perspectives at once, instead of a limited bubble that most live in and make their views from.

Its not some guy on a cloud playing a harp with a white beard, its more so Divine Quantum physics. Imagine Infinity being alive and intelligent. Infinity itself is beyond human understanding to comprehend. This is what your dealing with here. It may not be comprehend, but can be experienced!!!