Religious Dogma is Speculation. Discuss

Originally posted by sinohptik

How do you know you didnt? You even say yourself we all have a different perspective.

How do you know what i was proposing?

Because I am enlightened enough to be able to view the world from multiple perspectives other than my own. I can simulate multiple perspectives, including yours.

Originally posted by sinohptik
Ill be blunt this time, you are not omniscient, individually.

You don't have to be omniscient to observe the absolute. That is like claiming I have to understand physics to observe gravity.

Originally posted by sinohptik
your opinions on what is or is not absolute is meaningless to others perspectives and search for All That Is.

It may be meaningless now, but later in their journey they just may understand. All perspective are looking at the same thing after all.

I see the Universe as an object, and all people are looking at the object from different angles/perspectives. If I tell you what I see from my perspective, and someone else tells me what they see from their perspective, and another person tells me what they see from their perspective, etc., I am able to build a more complete picture of the Universe from multiple perspectives. Over time, when you have gathered a nearly complete picture, it becomes easy to understand the similarities between all, and determine the absolute between all. When you progress even further, you have the ability to simulate new perspectives, and you can understand everyone and everything.

Me telling you my perspective is not meaningless. In the end, it will help people build a more complete picture.

Originally posted by sinohptik
You are not All That Is exclusively, what do you know of "absolutes" beyond your own perspective?

As described above.... I come to understand multiple perspectives, and found the absolutes between them all.

Originally posted by sinohptik
edit: to clarify, why do you limit God/All That Is by your own limited definitions on what is, or is not, absolute?

I don't limit God period. God is all that is, and all there ever will be.

That is infinite, not finite. Unlimited, not limited.

Originally posted by gift0fpr0phecy

Originally posted by sinohptik
edit: to clarify, why do you limit God/All That Is by your own limited definitions on what is, or is not, absolute?

I don't limit God period. God is all that is, and all there ever will be.

That is infinite, not finite. Unlimited, not limited.

edit on 20-12-2010 by gift0fpr0phecy because: (no reason given)

How interesting...

So, you believe your perspective on the absolute is omniscient?

If so, why arent you trying to actively help others achieve this same perspective? Or do you believe you are?

edit: in quick retrospect, i reacted to your arrogance negatively. thank you for that lesson

reply to post by sinohptik


Not at all, you seem to think there's a problem with us Atheists, Agnostics offering our OPINION and our ARGUMENT, AND QUESTIONS for the Theist and other users to think about.

There is nothing wrong with this.

Proclaiming to reveal wisdom regarding the source of the universe is a pretty big claim, and we're here to ask questions, and tell people why we wouldn't dare guess or describe the source of the universe without evidence.

I am currently talking to the moderators regarding my threads being moved around. I think this is an important debate, not about winning, but about opening minds and offering a different view, a humble view in my opinion.

Protest these threads if you like, or how i conduct them, but theocracy cannot encroach on the opinion of those without a belief in God, this is the internet after all, not the Middle East.

I have been polite so far, and i will continue to be so.

reply to post by gift0fpr0phecy

If you point to something I said that isn't a fact. I will give you a cookie.

You better stock up on cookies :-) While I happen to see alot of your points, categorizing them as facts I think is a mistake. You are making the same mistake Deist's make. I doubt you can prove most of what you said...

In fact, I challenge you to prove - really prove, with real evidence that isn't just circular arguments or your own definitions - any of your claims.

reply to post by sinohptik


You are very perceptive. There can't be a winner in this debate, but it was my goal to shake the tree a little bit. Some people who first come across as "open" to the universe seem to be very close-minded when you probe a little bit.

reply to post by gift0fpr0phecy

Because I am enlightened enough to be able to view the world from multiple perspectives other than my own. I can simulate multiple perspectives, including yours.

Delusions of grandeur. Check your ego!

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Yes, you have been very polite. Star for that.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Such a comment was directed at those currently speaking in the discussion, specifically AllIsOne and gift0fpr0phecy. Interestingly, both of whom seem to be "believers" in something, there were no atheists currently in the discussion which that was directed towards (thus the "slowly turning into" qualifier). peacevic was present, but doing his/her seemingly typical thing of being open-minded (which i previously commended, and continue to feel that way). Keep in mind, i will question the religious the same as the non-religious as i personally view them as two sides of the same coin, despite being categorized by others as "religious" myself.

I never proclaimed anything regarding knowledge on the source of the universe, that would be speculation on your part I never protested the thread, in fact i have repeatedly said i love them! On that note, do *you* come into these conversations with the thought of opening your mind? I have already learned a truckload about others perspectives and that has expanded my own (a beautiful thing). How about you? Plus, i still have many unanswered questions! It seems your mind is taking you for a ride again, friend

You really dont feel you are being derisive in your approach though? really? Its fine if you dont and do not mean to, but you come off that way very, very strongly in my perspective, and judging from the aggressive response in many of your threads, others might feel the same way. As i said, i dont personally care, but if you are not aware of it, you need to be. If its intentional, my point is irrelevant! See below:

"This is faith. And it's the exact type of unfalsifiable nonsense as Tarot Card Reading, Astrology, Psychics.

These charlatons hide behind the unfalsifiable nature of their claims and expect us to believe them on the basis of faith. This is what is ruining our intelligence and civilisation. They are actively teaching ignorance. And many are being fooled beacuse of this, and have become rather arrogant.

Again, why does this ignorance demand our respect?"

calling people "arrogant" "charlatons(sic)," saying their beliefs are "nonsense" and that "they" are ruining our "intelligence" and "civilisation(sic)" and that they deserve no respect, is not polite. Especially when you dont actually know their individual beliefs and are making broad, sweeping generalizations about your beliefs on others beliefs. And thats just the first thing i came across. its not a huge concern for me, so i wont continue to point it out beyond this. But if you truly feel you are being polite, dont be surprised when others you are speaking to do not see it that way and react reciprocally. You are not this way in all of your posts, so my personal guess at this point is that its intentional, but i dont pretend to know.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


May I ask you again:

Have you had a mystic, spiritual experience in your life? I'm not talking about trips aided by substances that cannot be mentioned on this forum.

You don't need to answer if you don't want. Just wanted to make sure you saw my question to you.

reply to post by AllIsOne


I had my suspicions

I think that can be a great tool, but for me, it also seems to be a slippery slope, you know? on this discussion, people get quickly offended, do nothing but react, and quickly get into the "us vs. them" mindset. which, to me, is more of a problem than disagreements on things that none of us understand anyway. If everyone goes into that "me against you" frame of mind, it makes it very difficult to actually learn anything in depth about one another beyond how fickle we can be!

reply to post by sinohptik


I just like to play devil's advocate and see how deep or shallow someone's intellectual construct really is. Said poster is throwing around pseudo-scientific terms, feels superior in his thinking, but offers nothing of substance. He's basically saying God is all because I say so ... lol. I'm also kind of allergic to circular logic and there is plenty to be found in his reasoning.

Sometimes you see more of the true fabric of a personality when you poke around a bit. Kumbaya.

reply to post by sinohptik

do *you* come into these conversations with the thought of opening your mind?

I have an open-mind, i'm willing to entertain yours and others theories of universal creation or our existence/reality in general, but i will not "believe" or have "faith" in these ideas until i have defintive evidence, empirical evidence, until i have fact. These are currently just "possibilities"

An intervening God is not a possibility. God doesn't answer prayers, "he" doesn't pick which gallaxies he will save, which animals will die out on earth, God has no forsight, like my other thread states, if God exists, HE DOESNT CARE.

And again, i stress, i certainly have a problem with any revealed wisdom in theistic doctrine.

So to conclude, i'm more than willing to accept possibilities but not definitive "TRUTH" just on the basis of faith.

do *you* come into these conversations with the thought of opening your mind?

So....YES, my mind is open, I'm not narrow-minded enough to just "Agree" that God exists, maybe God doesn't exist, maybe reality is just infinity itself.

So a question to you:

who is open-minded.....

someone waiting for proper evidence before affirming a belief?

or someone that believes the doctrine of ancient man has a better chance than knowing the TRUTH of the causation of the universe?

I will continue to answer questions politely.

reply to post by AllIsOne


I can't say that i have my friend, I've tried my fair share of substances, and even under their influences i've never experienced something that someone might describe as "Mystical" or "Spiritual"

I've tried Ecstasy and it certainly gives you a bizarre perception of reality and a "euphoric" sensation throughout the body, but nothing "Spiritual" or "Divine".

How about you?

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Yes I have. No drugs were involved since I don't do drugs.

The experience cannot be described, so please understand that I will try to give you a very poor attempt. It is highly subjective and will probably forever evade empirical knowledge and scientific scrutiny. It has defined my outlook on life, though. The closest I can describe it to is a feeling of unconditional love that is connected to everything. It was as if a veil was lifted and a different "stage" and "actors" were revealed. The experience itself was very brief, but it is still reverberating.

The German heretic Meister Eckhart has described it so much better than I ever could ...

Also, we "know" so little ...

The situation we always live in is like that of the wise Chinese farmer whose horse ran off. When his neighbor came to console him the farmer said “Who knows what’s good or bad?” When his horse returned the next day with a herd of horses following her, the foolish neighbor came to congratulate him on his good fortune. “Who knows what’s good or bad?” said the farmer. Then, when the farmer’s son broke his leg trying to ride one of the new horses, the foolish neighbor came to console him again. “Who knows what’s good or bad?” said the wise farmer. When the army passed through, conscripting men for war, they passed over the farmer’s son because of his broken leg. When the foolish man came to congratulate the farmer that his son would be spared, again the wise farmer said “Who knows what’s good or bad?”

Be well!

reply to post by AllIsOne



Interesting. Have you been able to repeat this feeling? What do you think caused it? A momentary change in the balance of chemicals in your brain? A connection to a higher reality? Something else?

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by sinohptik

 

do *you* come into these conversations with the thought of opening your mind?

I have an open-mind, i'm willing to entertain yours and others theories of universal creation or our existence/reality in general, but i will not "believe" or have "faith" in these ideas until i have defintive evidence, empirical evidence, until i have fact. These are currently just "possibilities"

An intervening God is not a possibility. God doesn't answer prayers, "he" doesn't pick which gallaxies he will save, which animals will die out on earth, God has no forsight, like my other thread states, if God exists, HE DOESNT CARE.

You know what they say about extraordinary claims, right? (a joke, just to clarify). What leads you to believe these things? i dont believe there is empirical evidence either way on those claims, but maybe you know something i dont.

So....YES, my mind is open, I'm not narrow-minded enough to just "Agree" that God exists, maybe God doesn't exist, maybe reality is just infinity itself.

So a question to you:

who is open-minded.....

someone waiting for proper evidence before affirming a belief?

or someone that believes the doctrine of ancient man has a better chance than knowing the TRUTH of the causation of the universe?

I will continue to answer questions politely.

edit on 20/12/10 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)

That is a fantastic question, to me! One is simply thinking about their arm moving (it never will), and the other is waving it about wildly and is liable to get smacked in their own face (if you didnt read the posts referencing this, ill clarify).

reply to post by awake_and_aware


That is sad to me, friend. not in a negative derogatory way.

Could it be because of your preconceived notions on what "mystical" and "spiritual" might be? and your experiences didnt match up with the fantasy/lack there-of?

What do you define as "mystical" and "spiritual?"

reply to post by sinohptik


Why is it sad? What definitions are you using?

reply to post by peacevic


Yes, it happens infrequently. It could be triggered by anything. I don't know. It could be a hallucination, micro seizure, chemical imbalance, or ... as I said: a veil opens and I get a glimpse into something that is usually hidden from my perception.