ATS, Hate, and the Future

I'm not surprised this topic has risen again; I can recall at least six similar threads in the past seven years or so.

My views are well known on this subject and I've said countless times that ATS will appear on a list of "hate sites" soon. It's now inevitable. Those, who are to blame for this contamination to ATS and the conspiracy movement as a whole, do not deserve mentioning. Best to deny them the oxygen of publicity.

A once united movement is now divisive and belligerent towards opposing views, attitudes and cultures. Anything "different" to the norm is an apparent subversive. The enemy within, according to some. Hostilities may subside at a later date, but the damage has already been done.

The abovetopsecret.com that I knew and loved is dead.

reply to post by Djarums



I commend you for taking the time to express your thoughts on this matter.

Unfortunately there is no clear cut solution to this problem.

I believe that ATS created this problem in its quest for more global members.

We all do not have the same sensibilities and beliefs.

It is determined by age and location and what you were taught by your parents,society and the government.

Morals are not the same all over the globe either.

What may be considered immoral in the western world is considered perfectly normal in other places.

Mike Vick went to jail for what is a sport in some parts of the world.

We are in a country fighting for what and defending people who sodomize small boys.

Even religions fight against each other within their own beliefs.

You stated you live in NYC and there are many ethnic groups living together in "harmony".

Yes, with 50,000 armed police officers keeping it that way!

I found a interesting article a while ago.

I will include a link after the quote.

E. Raymond Hall, professor of biology at the University of Kansas, is the author of the definitive work on American wildlife, Mammals of North America. He states as a biological law that, "two subspecies of the same species do not occur in the same geographic area." (emphasis in the original.)

Human races are biological subspecies, and Prof. Hall writes specifically that this law applies to humans just as it does to other mammals: "To imagine one subspecies of man living together on equal terms for long with another subspecies is but wishful thinking and leads only to disaster and oblivion for one or the other."

library.flawlesslogic.com...

You may be just expressing wishful thinking,hoping that ATS will be something special and different than every other forum.

I am sure that was the founders belief.

It may be time for some serious culling of the membership to allow this site to remain viable.

Just the fact that you have had to post this is proof enough.

reply to post by infinite

I'm not surprised this topic has risen again;

We are just a reflection of the world we live in, only here they have the ability to silence certain segments of the ATS community when they choose to do so.
Oh wait, so do some countries,

I don't have any answers.

Great post, and for what its worth OP, I think its worth you utterly ignoring the posts which deplore your reminder to the membership. Its easy to forget for some people that hate is only acceptable in hell, and everywhere else its just plain wrong.
Every now and again we DO need a reminder. Thats one of the reasons why in Britain we have a rememberance service every year. Its not just to remember the fallen of the first and second world war, and certainly not any of the relatively tiny battles and wars we have fought since. It is also to remind us what happens when entire social groups are made villans by governments, and when governments become based solely on hate and conquest.
I respect your dedication to preventing those who would rather like to forget why they are wrong to hate, from having the chance to put it from thier minds. Kudos.

The bigger gets ATS, the dumber is the content.
You can't have a growing business and a better-than-the-rest ATS. Both goals are contradictory.
ATS can't change the world alone. The world may change then ATS can become both a profitable business and a welcoming place for intelligent discussions.
The list of groups, brotherhoods, people, ideas, philosophies, political or economical systems and theories spoilt by success throughout history is endless.

Yet please ATS, hang on and keep on trying. You know from the beginning what you aim for is impossible anyway.

Why is it that every time I see one of these threads pop up it's always preaching to the choir and turns into one giant pat-on-the-back circle? The people who hold such beliefs don't care to read threads bashing on their ideals of hate and will continue to (try as they might) post such threads mainly for the fact that they can until they receive a permanent ban and move onto the next forum site.

As a Site Admin, instead of going through the time to post your thoughts on a subject that you yourself or a Mod can effectively handle, why can you not just nip the problem in the butt without having to create a thread complaining about the problem? I can understand if there have been complaints to the effect of "hate" postings on ATS and this thread was created as an announcement to reassure those members that the situation is being dealt with and those who violate the T&C are warned/banned. But a thread of this nature, in the context of what is said in the OP, would be better suited to be written by a member who has no control over T&C enforcement rather than someone who carries with them the ability to do so.

It's worrisome to think that those who have the responsibility of keeping ATS a site that both entertains and educates thousands around the globe (and off) in a orderly environment will resort to posting something comparable to belly-aching without consideration of the position they hold. I'm not saying that the OP's opinion in the matter is invalid for any reason, but I would think that someone of that position on this site would word their OP in a way that doesn't make it sound as though they don't have the direct or indirect power to discipline members who violate the site's T&C. I respect the duties that the staff and mods of this website have but it doesn't exactly instill a lot of confidence in me of their ability to enforce "quality control" of the forums when threads like this are created.

I would like to add a 4th point if I may.

Bigotry and hatred always flourishes when people are at their poorest and most desperate, people lose their jobs or houses and feel the need to look around for someone to blame.
These people are then soft targets for a million political parties, or idealist groups that give them a target to vent their anger upon.
Be it Jews or Minorities or Immigrants the rise of poverty is always accompanied by an equal rise in extremist views whether they be left or right wing and an upsurge in hatred.

reply to post by Misoir


OK, aside from this thread one of the 5 you pointed out came from another Admin. The others from members, or should I say, "non-Admin members". It is obvious that this is what the membership wants. Why is this still a problem? Because there are some that skirt the T&C. Some are problems but as you have pointed out the majority here would LOVE to have a forum devoid of bigotry. I've seen other forums, I think we are accomplishing a good thing here. You'll always have turds though. Goes with the numbers.

I agree!
Even the website motto promotes the denial of ignorance.
Ignorance is a disease - sometimes even a virus that stems from the lack of education or prior to poor upbringing. We must work together to help the ignorant and create a stable connected society.

Not often that I reply to threads like these, but felt I had some things to say.

As I sit here, I consider myself rather fortunate to have "met" so many people via ATS. Various countries, ideologies, genders, backgrounds, religions, races, levels of intellect, levels of education, levels of mental acuity and so on make up ATS. I have come to know some more than others. And some I know quite a bit about.


But one thing strikes me to this day, for the most part we don't know who is on the other side of the keyboard. Often times people are older or younger than you think or female, that you thought to be male, and so on. Usually the most we have to go on is what a person has to say. Sometimes I find myself rather aghast at what is said. But what is the most disturbing is often times people don't consider who is reading their post and what opinions are being formed by your own words.

Yes, text is a difficult medium for conveying your thoughts properly, even with my vocabulary I don't always get my point across. For example, I had a discussion and called someone a beautiful person. Their immediate response was that they wanted to be thought of as more than a pretty face. My response was that by beautiful person, I meant the whole package of heart, mind and soul and that had I meant just a pretty face, I would have said so.

Now that could have just as easily went another way. Anger and resentment could have been built over the misinterpretation that I thought little of her than just a pretty face with no substance. But a blatant blanket statement of stereotypes and prejudice is just the type of ignorance that we should all strive to rid ourselves from using.

reply to post by DarrenBent


Freedom of speech is all very well , but xenophobes that abuse that right, and use it to get away with spreading hatred and fear, and all the venomous crap they spew, have no place within that structure.
I live in a nation whos blood was spilled to end a xenophobic regieme which threatened this whole world with its conformist and violent attitude. We know the cost of allowing such villainy and oppression to grow any further than it already has , is ASKING for an eventual slide into neo nazism. There is only that one ending to the tale, an end bathed in the blood of the innocent, and marred by devastation and the total destruction of entire cities, all over the world.
If you think , that taking reasonable life saving steps to prevent history repeating itself in that manner is unreasonable, then as welcome to your opinion as you are, it still has no value, and places far to much emphasis on freedom of YOUR speech, and far to little on the freedom of the people you hate. It is selfish, unwarranted, unreasonable and illogical to suggest that merely because YOUR psyche is damaged to the extent that you have decided to devote yourself to hatred, that the rest of us must merely accept that hate, and begin the eventual slide into sociological hell that your attitude, and the attitude of other hate addicts will undoubtedly spawn.
If you advocate the freedom to hate, then you advocate neo nazism. And if that is the case, you are the enemy of freedom, and thusly exempt from it, for the protection of all mankind, as a free, and more importantly diverse species. You shackle yourself with hate, and the protective reaction of the rest of the world against that attitude is utterly without flaw or argument to weaken its position. It is merely the way it has to be.

Originally posted by Djarums
While reading through some threads this morning it occurred to me that we at ATS are simply witnessing our own localized version of what has becoming a worsening global problem. The problem of hatred and bigotry exists everywhere in the world and it has pretty much since man first walked the Earth.

There are a few causes for it. One, as many of my fellow members have pointed out, is the fear of anything different. That's a very broad fear because it can be so many things. Fear of a different skin color, a different language, a different faith, a different choice of clothing. The root is the same though. "You are different from me and that makes me uncomfortable." I know we all like to say that it's now 2010 and we've moved past that sort of thing, but that is false. Yes, some people have, but whether we like it or not, the vast majority of us (The HUMAN race) still have the fear of things that are not like us.

The second cause of bigotry and hatred is the one that I believe is hurting us, the ATS community, the most. This is also a problem that has probably been going on as long as we've been on this planet. The problem is the terrible habit that people have of blaming an entire group of people for the actions of one (or a few). I'm going to speak very plainly to illustrate this point so please forgive me if I offend anyone. The main topic that brings out the most ignorant and vulgar statements ever posted on ATS is the Israel/Palestine situation. This is not new. I've been here for 8 years as a member and more prior as a reader and it's always been like that. The examples are always the same. The fact is, it is ignorant to throw an entire group of people together based on the actions of some members of that group.

It is appalling to me to see a member post about all Muslims being terrorists because that member has chosen to take the actions of extremist groups and lay the blame on the group as a whole.

It is appalling to me to see a member post about all Jews being sneaky criminals who think gentiles are animals because that member has chosen to take the statements of extremist clerics and lay the blame on the group as a whole.

I could go on, but I hope the point has been made. There is no excuse for this sort of behavior. I can not say "It's 2010! That behavior is in the past!" because it isn't. What I say is "It's 2010! How can that behavior still exist? How can there be people who are so willing to cast MILLIONS of their fellow people as villains because of the actions of what are upon closer examinations very small - though vocal - groups."

The third cause of the hatred and bigotry of course is the one that I don't think we'll ever solve: stupidity. There are those people who will always look for someone to blame for the world's ills. You know the type don't you? The person who has never even made an effort to interact with any of the groups he supposedly hates. Yet he can concretely tell you that it's all because of the Blacks, or it's all because of the Asians. He just knows. Maybe he heard it from his parents? Maybe at neighborhood meetings? Wherever it is from, that person is cursed by his own ignorance and for those of us here, that person is the hardest to reach.

I know some of you will look at my profile and see that it says New York City and that might help you to understand why this issue is so important to me. I live in a city that has representation from every race and religion. Whether it's residents or tourists, I have been blessed to interact with virtually every culture in the world. In many ways I say the same is true for us here. ATS, as many of you have experienced, is comprised of members from all over the world. We don't care where you're from, or which God you pray to (if any) or what color your skin is. All we care about is hearing from you. ATS is in its own way a global city just like my hometown is and we have members from so many different walks of life.

We should not let the three things I mentioned above take over our community. We should not hate other members because they're different, we should embrace the opportunity to exchange ideas with someone who is different.

We should not allow ourselves to blame large groups of people for the misconduct of extreme elements of their communities, we should embrace the opportunity to learn that the extremists are NOT the majority. Talk to a Muslim member, talk to a Jewish member. Learn about them from THEM, not from news reports that are carefully designed to make us live in fear.

Lastly we should not let ignorance dictate the tone and spirit of this forum. Yes, it's 2010 and we have failed to move past bigotry in the world. But a global community such as ATS is a prime place to defeat that ignorance that has plagued us. The internet allows people to communicate who never have had that chance before. Set the hatred aside and learn from each other.

I firmly believe that if people can battle those causes of bigotry, at least in our community, we might one day be able to say that hate has become a thing of the past. When you see a member posting with hate, don't answer in kind, but rather help him. He has a problem. Maybe we can't fix his problem, but we can, as a community, show that we don't work like that here.

I firmly believe that one day the members of this community as a whole will realize something that I learned by living in NYC: that we're really not all that different after all.

Thank you for reading my thoughts.

You're absolutely correct! I am a comparative newcomer and I have been reading some threads recently, only to be horrified by the incredible racist lunacy I am encountering!
People say things on the Interweb that (I hope!) they would never dream of saying to anyone's face.
There are also some shockingly bigoted remarks on religious threads..
Vicky

reply to post by DarrenBent

Do you think it is acceptable to run a website which purports to state it is a paragon of truth and then remove members you don't like without explaining to the other members why you have done so?

Think you have it all wrong, if someone is warned or banned they are notified what the reason is and have the opportunity to communicate with staff regarding their particular issue, it would serve no purpose to air dirty laundry in public.

Guess you think it's alright to flame and troll on ATS, lie, plagiarize etc. What goes on between a member and admin. is none of our business.

Everyone hates!

Whether you will admit it or not, everyone hates someone or something. Human beings are hardwired to "hate" to assume that it can be somehow eradicated would be a foolish assumption.

Those who will come forward to say they don't hate anyone or anything would be liars!

A simple example: Obama love or hate? Palin love or hate?

The vast majority will claim that they hate neither of them, nor love either. But in time will find themselves experiencing "hate" for one or the other.

There are thousands of examples of how we ALL hate throughout our lives.

It is an inherent part of what we are, to deny hate, or assume that it is a curable condition is silly. Suppressing one's hatred, or segregating it will only validate that hate and make it worse on an individual basis.

Hatred is usually born of ignorance... If you find yourselves experiencing hatred (you absolutely WILL no exceptions) and on a personal level really want to rid yourself of it, then delve into that which you hate. study it and learn everything about it that you can, until there is no more to learn... and you may find that hatred has gone away in the process. But eventually it will show up again, you cannot, nor will not avoid it.

ATS should confront hatred in all forms aggressively! Not somehow seek to eliminate hate but to eliminate the ignorance often associated and directly causes that hate. Doing so would build a stronger community here.

First, welcome hate, and then do battle with it collectively... within the terms and conditions of course.

You can sweep it off of the boards if you wish, but you can do so much more by confronting it.

This is a wonderful thread, dear. Thank you so much.

Perhaps if things calm down, more members will be likely to return to this website. And more substantial contributions will be made by all. Who knows, one can only hope.

reply to post by Djarums


hate and the future go hand in hand they are a perfect match

On a better, more positive note:

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
This is a wonderful thread, dear. Thank you so much.

Perhaps if things calm down, more members will be likely to return to this website. And more substantial contributions will be made by all. Who knows, one can only hope.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


I can honestly tell you that I do not hate nobody or anything. There are of course people I dislike and situations I avoid, but never because of hate.

I can honestly not understand people that hate. It is an emotion I really don't have. Unlike anger cause I happen to be angry on occasion but it has never grown into hate.

So it is not true not everybody hates

IMHO
NOT delving into the concept in depth, and generalizing that "Hate" is "bad", can be a very dangerous place to bury ones' head.

After all it was racist ( the most common hatism) to oppose Obama care...say, they don't cover children with preexisting conditions like they said they were going to...and there ARE death panels...and the insurance companies wrote the bill...

Having been accused of being a hater, and as someone with admittedly controversial views, a not always hilarious sense of humor, a lack of pertinant content, terrible speeling skills, horrible grammer, dyselexia and hotdogfinger.... not to mention I am just a plain rude person, not to mention occasionally mistaken, I am going to go out on a limb and ask the reader to consider how much the concept of "hate" is used to stiffle or control debate.

Part of the problem is when the term "hate" is used to define, label, and marginalize, legitimate discourse, and then that label sticks, or that form of hate, anti "whatever*, becomes entrenched as an effective tool for the suppression of truth.

divide and conqure

Hal Turner is a good example having admited in court to having spread hate purposefully as an AGENT of the FBI. Or the media trumpeting up the bit about the ground zero mosque.

It is a common epithet when someone is defending current nationalistic positions, especially ones that are indefensible.It is also used to control internal populations...it is also created to cause a group to circle their wagons so as to be easier to manipulate, it is used to creat patsies.

So I would say it is advisable to look carefully at the dark underside of things cause that is where evil grows and hides. I think labeling things as hate is dangerous and most of the times inaccurate to say the least.
It serves the peeps poorly to have the term as an answer to any question, or to have it used as a justification for any deed.
Because in accepting that term "hate" is the allowance the real culprits use to get away laughing.

if the're is one thing though, that the real culprits hate....
its you.