Whats in a name, Satan, Lucifer and the rest?

reply to post by puzzledtruther


Yes, forget Santa,

Satan equals devil

But eveyone will have christmas.

reply to post by catwhoknows
just wondered why people use the name santa and whee it originated from ?. is it to do with the devil or something less sinister ???

reply to post by infoquest


You are correct. There is not really any mentioning of horns in the bible, we have the golden calf story, and the symbolic horns in the ocean you describe.
However it is undeniable that when the church wanted to vilify and demonize something, they gave it horns! I believe it comes from these old stories, as well as ancient mythology, where allot of good spirits/angels had horns. They therefore needed to alienize these pantheons. And this was their tactic!

reply to post by puzzledtruther


The word 'santa' was there first!

Both Portuguese and Spanish use "Santa" as the feminine version of the word saint. "Santo Nicholas" has been in use for 1700 years, but in early american English (1700s) , it was often mistranslated as "Santa Nicholas".

Definitely no relation to satan.

reply to post by Schrödinger

However it is undeniable that when the church wanted to vilify and demonize something, they gave it horns! I believe it comes from these old stories, as well as ancient mythology, where allot of good spirits/angels had horns. They therefore needed to alienize these pantheons. And this was their tactic!

Yes, more particularly, the imagery stemmed from the church's attempted vilification of the horned god Pan, who was very popular in Victorian and Edwardian neopaganism.

Prior to this, medieval and early images of satan tended, by contrast, to show generic semi-human monsters with wings and clawed feet.

reply to post by Saurus


Thankyou just thought there might be a connection there, but im really glad there isnt lol. Phew can now enjoy christmas haha

reply to post by Saurus


Yep that is a very plausible argument.

It is obvious to me at least, that the church vilified any other form of belief, and took control of humanities ancient spiritual and gnostic learnings. And monopolized the contact to God. No longer was your body your temple, and the triad of the family (son, mother and father) of any use if you wanted salvation. No you had to go to their church, and talk to their priest, in order to talk to god. which is a very funny oxymoron to me

reply to post by puzzledtruther


Christmas is a heathen custom. It celebrates the winter solstice! Jesus was not born in December, we know that today! It is therefore highly likely, that in order to integrate their religion into our societies, they had to warp/transmute our heathen customs (which evolved around the earth seasons etc.) and integrate them in their own religion!
Very smart though. For instance in Scandinavia, they introduces Jesus to us, and we already had Balder, so we kinda just thought that hey, they are talking about Balder. They then wanted us to erect churches, which we did; With Wotan in the middle, and Thor and Balder on his sides. Over time Wotan and Thor was removed, and yet again over more time, Balder was replaced with Jesus.
We speculate that the reason that the Scandinavians converted in the beginning, was simply because we no longer where able to trade with most of Europe, because they where refusing to bargain with heathens, or atleast used two different price sets, one for heathens and one for Christians.
Being the maritime trading nation that we where, we simply converted their "god" into our own, not seing the consequences of our actions, until it was to late.

As said before Satan is a title so if it is mentioned in the Bible it is not necessarily talking about one entity, David was described as a Satan…are we to think he is the devil?

If you are on the path of good and are tempted by anyone or anything to sway from that path that something can be described as a Satan. A devil can also be described as a Satan (adversary) if you are a good person.

The one called Lucifer (light bearer) or Lord Satan (chief adversary) of the Elohim is NOT a devil.

Elohim (plural) was the fraternity of El Elyon (singular).

Lucifer was an adversary of the angels/gods (Elohim) who’s master or leader was El Elyon "the lord"

The lord of what?...The lord of the Elohim (gods).

El Elyon is not GOD i.e. the one who created all that is.

Lucifer, Lord Satan was the “chief adversary” or ringleader but he was not an adversary to GOD or the creator!



Who were the >>>>Watchers

I have come across the "watchers" several times, while I have my own theory, that they are inter-dimensional guardians, I would love to hear what you think they are!

“they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon”
Book of Enoch VI:6

200 “watchers” came down from above (angels) and landed on the mountain top. They were organized in groups of ten so in all there were 20 groups of ten. Each group had a group leader called “the chief of tens”
The overall leader of the 200 was “Samjaza” who is also known by various other names.

They were selected by the grand assembly of the gods/angels (Elohim) for this task,given very strict and specific rules about what they can and cant do. To break any of these rules would result in severe punishment and being called before the grand assembly who’s chief was El Elyon the lord.

Thank you for sharing that, do you have any more sources or information on these 200 watchers?

The Watchers in the bible - Genesis 6:1-2

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

In the Book of Enoch, 6-7

And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.' And Semjâzâ, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended ⌈in the days⌉ of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Sêmîazâz, their leader, Arâkîba, Râmêêl, Kôkabîêl, Tâmîêl, Râmîêl, Dânêl, Êzêqêêl, Barâqîjâl, Asâêl, Armârôs, Batârêl, Anânêl, Zaqîêl, Samsâpêêl, Satarêl, Tûrêl, Jômjâêl, Sariêl. These are their chiefs of tens.

And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

King Solomon and the djinn -- sounds similar to story of the Watchers, no?

The Kurdish Jews preserve a very curious story concerning the origins of their gentile neighbours, whom they refer to as "children of the djinn". They say that long ago King Solomon ordered 500 djinn to find him 500 of the most beautiful virgins in the world. They were not to return until every last one was in their possession. The djinn had set about their immense task, going to Europe to seek out the maidens. Finally, after gathering together the correct number, the djinn were about to return to Jerusalem when they learnt that Solomon had passed away. In a dilemma, the djinn decided what to do. Should they return the girls to their rightful homes in Europe, or should they remain with them? Because the young virgins had "found favor in the eyes of the jinn, the jinn took them unto themselves as their wives. And they begot many beautiful children, and those children bore more children... And that is the way the nation of the Kurds came into being".

In another version of the same story, 100 genies are dispatched by Solomon to search out 100 of the world’s most beautiful maidens for his personal harem. Having achieved this quota, Solomon then dies and the 100 genies decide to settle down with the maidens amid the inaccessible mountains of Kurdistan. The offspring of these marriages result in the foundation of the Kurdish race, "who in their elusiveness resemble their genie forefathers and in their handsomeness their foremothers".

The Watchers / fallen angels story is an interesting one that seems to have been much better known in the ancient world (specifically the part about them hooking up with mortal women, often in exchange for hidden knowledge). I've found connections to stories in Greek, Egyptian and Babylonian mythology. Makes you wonder what was really going on... maybe this is what LUXUS is getting at?

When the 200 watchers had surveyed the planet Earth which was teeming with life they discovered that there was intelligent life. Not one but a few primitive humans species.
Of the few human species on Earth Cro-Magnon man was found to be the most intelligent. Though these creatures were primitive and animalistic in comparison to the watchers they loved them treating them much like pets.

“when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. 2. And the angels, the children of the heaven (watchers), saw and lusted after them” Book of Enoch VI:1&2

The watchers who were all male then rebelled against the great assembly and the lord El Elyon by committing two unforgivable sins.

3. And Semjâzâ, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' 4. And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' 5. Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it.
1. And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them (they mated with primitive humans) they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: 3.
Book of Enoch VI:3-5 & VII:1-3

To the Elohim this was a deplorable and sinful act to breed with animals, primitive humans. The watchers/Elohim are much taller then humans and so the human females gave birth to hybrids who were much taller then humans. These hybrid were also much more intelligent then natural humans and so the watchers committed the second sin

6. Thou seest what Azâzêl (one of the watchers) hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets (to the hybrids) which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: 7. And Semjâzâ, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. 8. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. 9. And the women have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness.
Book of Enoch IX:6-9

By rebelling and committing acts which the watchers were strictly prohibited to do they all became “Satan’s” of the Elohim but their leader was the one who was the ring leader and the chief adversary (lord Satan) of the Elohim.
By committing the second sin of giving humans knowledge, unnaturally accelerating their evolution by both genetics and revealing knowledge which would have taken them thousands of years to discover the leader of the watchers became Lucifer the light-bearer, the one who revealed secret knowledge to humans.

If it was not for them we would still be living in the bushes, humans are way more advanced then they should be and that's why we have such problems, we were not reddy for it!

Elohim and YWHW origins according the "The Secret book of John" From the Nag Hammadi Library Stavin Davis translation. I like it. Hard to grasp at first, but then comes apart nicely after a while.

Secret book of John

The Chief Archon saw the young woman who was standing by Adam.
He realized that the light-filled Epinoia of life was within her.
Yaldabaoth became completely ignorant.

When the Providence of all saw what was going to happen
She sent assistants to remove Divine Life from Eve.

Yaldabaoth raped Eve.
She bore two sons.

Elohim was the name of the first.
Yahweh was the name of the second.
Elohim has a bear’s face.
Yahweh has a cat’s face.
One is righteous;
One is not.
Yahweh is righteous;
Elohim is not.
Yahweh would command fire and wind
Elohim would command water and earth.

Yaldabaoth deceptively named the two: Cain and Abel.

Originally posted by LUXUS
When the 200 watchers had surveyed the planet Earth which was teeming with life they discovered that there was intelligent life. Not one but a few primitive humans species.
Of the few human species on Earth Cro-Magnon man was found to be the most intelligent. Though these creatures were primitive and animalistic in comparison to the watchers they loved them treating them much like pets.

If it was not for them we would still be living in the bushes, humans are way more advanced then they should be and that's why we have such problems, we were not reddy for it!

How do you extrapolate the cro-magnon aspect by what was written in Enoch? Because they taught the girls cuttings & such? If so, that's a pretty big jump.

Originally posted by satron
Was Lucifer a prototype of Jesus?

Clever one!
Star for you

Its not that hard, we are the descendants of Cro-magnon man, we have absolutely no relation to Neanderthal man who was around at the same time. Humans did not develop from monkeys,apes, chimps all these things developed independently. Humans dont fully understand evolution, currently there is a belief that everything evolved from everything else. Man the most advanced was actually created first but was last to materialise physically.

what was first shall be last and what was last shall be first

reply to post by LUXUS


I think you forgot a key name Anti-Christ, what you say about the word Devil is the most prevalent in my eyes in the Bible it speaks of many Anti-Chrits which one could also correlate to many Devils....


As for the other names sure if you just look at a name and don't include meanings to the name your right it's just a name just like the old saying a kiss is just a kiss a smile is just a smlie...

Originally posted by King Seesar
reply to post by LUXUS

 

I think you forgot a key name Anti-Christ, what you say about the word Devil is the most prevalent in my eyes in the Bible it speaks of many Anti-Chrits which one could also correlate to many Devils....


As for the other names sure if you just look at a name and don't include meanings to the name your right it's just a name just like the old saying a kiss is just a kiss a smile is just a smlie...

By its definition the "Anti-Christ" is an adversary to Christ and therefore can be called Satan however it is my feeling that the anti-Christ is one and not many like a devil.

A demon is an evil creature often with not much in the way of intelligence, maybe something like an animal. These demons can possess a person and cause strange and unusual behaviour. Perhaps some of the individuals we call mental may actually be possessed.

A devil is an evil creature having an intelligence similar to or above that of a human. Perhaps capable of taking on physical form in some instances and appearing as a human. There is not one devil but the unseen world is populated by many. Some people who play with magic may unwilling call such a creature into their presence.

The anti-Christ, a dark powerful entity which dislikes man and anyone who would save him.