Decriminalise all drugs, says ex-minister Bob Ainsworth

reply to post by Kryties

In jail I learnt how to inject speed into my penis for an awesome sexual high

that is about the most disturbing thing I've ever heard...

Yes, it is my opinion only, and yes, Legalization will lead to professional drug production etc, yet it won't stop people from taking them and throwing away their Lifes.

No matter who produces drugs, no matter how pure the drugs are, as an understander in drug addiction, you will probably agree that drugs are still very dangerous.

Originally posted by Catch_a_Fire
reply to post by christina-66

 

Im not saying we shouldnt legalize drugs, what im saying is it wont solve all the problems relating to drug use. Dealers will still deal, smackheads will still rob and thieve, just because they're legal doesnt mean people wont commit crime to pay for them and dealers wont sell them for an income.

Bollocks. Without an illegal black market to sell it to, the dealers will all just dry up and go away. Proof? See The End of Alcohol Prohibition in the 1930's. After it was made legal again, the black market dried up and nobody was standing on street corners selling alcohol.

The 'smackheads' only rob and thieve to get the money for their next fix - a fix that is expensive because it is ILLEGAL therefore there is no regulatory control over pricing. Legalising would bring it all under regulation and prices will drop. Also, the purity of the drugs under a legalised, regulated system would help prevent overdosing and death due to the many impurities added by the black market dealers.

There will always be a black market for drugs wether illegal or not.

Just like their is a black market for alcohol huh? Last time I checked the dealer on the street corner down the road from my house sells dirty heroin and crack - not alcohol.

I wonder if the CIA is looking to increase its income?

second

reply to post by Freeborn


Google Search Page

In yesterday's Express _ I read the Independent ordinarily. I tried to find the story online but its not there. Just to show I did not personally pull this figure out the hat I've posted the google page where the headline's still there.

as much as 500k seems high - 22k seems low.

reply to post by Kryties


You make too many assumptions, no black market for alchohol ???. So why are the DTI (Department for Trade and Industry) and Customs raiding homes every day because people are selling alchohol and cigarettes that are imported from abroad at a massively cheaper rate because of the tax reduction you get from buying abroad.

Your last post was so invalid you should delete it yourself.

reply to post by Pakd-on-mystery


Drugs come in many forms. Alcohol is one of them, and abusing it leads to far worse problems than someone who lights up a joint.
Like it or not, but humans have always used substances to alter their perception and mind and will continue to do so despite any laws that criminalize it.
The pint of beer you drink, the coffee you drink, the cigarette you smoke, the painkiller you take, all are drugs because they cause a change in your body. A swift coffee gives you a bit more energy, a pint will help you relax.
By saying something like "children come to this forum" you are taking away their chance to be educated about drugs. Education does not equal the need to use drugs, it gives them a fair chance of weighing up the pros and cons.

I have to take up to 8 codeine pills a day due to chronic back pains. Those pills come from the same plant as heroine and morphine. And guess what? I am physically and psychologically addicted to codeine. I get them prescribed by my GP. If this is the case why can't I have more choices like cannabis for medicinal needs. Why can I go to Holland and get cannabis on prescription whilst here in the UK the government claims that cannabis has no medicinal value?

It really is time for a proper debate. Prohibition causes the problems associated with drugs, not the drugs themselves....

Originally posted by mysticus22
reply to post by Pakd-on-mystery

 

Drugs come in many forms. Alcohol is one of them, and abusing it leads to far worse problems than someone who lights up a joint.
Like it or not, but humans have always used substances to alter their perception and mind and will continue to do so despite any laws that criminalize it.
The pint of beer you drink, the coffee you drink, the cigarette you smoke, the painkiller you take, all are drugs because they cause a change in your body. A swift coffee gives you a bit more energy, a pint will help you relax.
By saying something like "children come to this forum" you are taking away their chance to be educated about drugs. Education does not equal the need to use drugs, it gives them a fair chance of weighing up the pros and cons.

I have to take up to 8 codeine pills a day due to chronic back pains. Those pills come from the same plant as heroine and morphine. And guess what? I am physically and psychologically addicted to codeine. I get them prescribed by my GP. If this is the case why can't I have more choices like cannabis for medicinal needs. Why can I go to Holland and get cannabis on prescription whilst here in the UK the government claims that cannabis has no medicinal value?

It really is time for a proper debate. Prohibition causes the problems associated with drugs, not the drugs themselves....

I am in no way taking anyone's chance to be educated, quite the opposite. I have been trying to say that this education should not be coming from people who discredit the dangerous side effects caused by drug use.
Misseducation, such as "marijuana" not being that bad, lead to children consuming it.
Quite oppsite to what you may believe, the endorphins released by smoking weed leads to the fraction of your brain producing them numbing out.
Drug use causes your brain to release an amount of endorphins that kills your brain cells because the amount is too high for your brain to handle. (depressions when stopping the drug)

I will say it again...."a drug is a drug"I mentioned alcohol and cigarettes in an earlier post.
To be precise, Coffee is not a drug, it contains a nervous toxine, so theoretically you are intoxicated by coffee rather than drugged.

Originally posted by Catch_a_Fire
reply to post by Kryties

 

You make too many assumptions, no black market for alchohol ???. So why are the DTI (Department for Trade and Industry) and Customs raiding homes every day because people are selling alchohol and cigarettes that are imported from abroad at a massively cheaper rate because of the tax reduction you get from buying abroad.

Yes, but it is not dealers standing on corners selling it to anybody who comes along is it? In fact I don't know a single person who could point me towards one of these black-market sellers - can you name any?

And they are raiding the homes because they are missing out on the tax money from selling it themselves. Big difference there mate.

reply to post by christina-66


In 2005 it was reported that there was 55,800 heroin users in Scotland, approximately 1.1% of the population.
news.bbc.co.uk...

In February 2010 it was reported that there are 22,000 methadone addicts in Scotland, approximately 0.43% of the population.
news.scotsman.com...

Originally posted by Pakd-on-mystery

Originally posted by mysticus22
reply to post by Pakd-on-mystery

 

Drugs come in many forms. Alcohol is one of them, and abusing it leads to far worse problems than someone who lights up a joint.
Like it or not, but humans have always used substances to alter their perception and mind and will continue to do so despite any laws that criminalize it.
The pint of beer you drink, the coffee you drink, the cigarette you smoke, the painkiller you take, all are drugs because they cause a change in your body. A swift coffee gives you a bit more energy, a pint will help you relax.
By saying something like "children come to this forum" you are taking away their chance to be educated about drugs. Education does not equal the need to use drugs, it gives them a fair chance of weighing up the pros and cons.

I have to take up to 8 codeine pills a day due to chronic back pains. Those pills come from the same plant as heroine and morphine. And guess what? I am physically and psychologically addicted to codeine. I get them prescribed by my GP. If this is the case why can't I have more choices like cannabis for medicinal needs. Why can I go to Holland and get cannabis on prescription whilst here in the UK the government claims that cannabis has no medicinal value?

It really is time for a proper debate. Prohibition causes the problems associated with drugs, not the drugs themselves....

I am in no way taking anyone's chance to be educated, quite the opposite. I have been trying to say that this education should not be coming from people who discredit the dangerous side effects caused by drug use.
Misseducation, such as "marijuana" not being that bad, lead to children consuming it.
Quite oppsite to what you may believe, the endorphins released by smoking weed leads to the fraction of your brain producing them numbing out.
Drug use causes your brain to release an amount of endorphins that kills your brain cells because the amount is too high for your brain to handle. (depressions when stopping the drug)

I will say it again...."a drug is a drug"I mentioned alcohol and cigarettes in an earlier post.
To be precise, Coffee is not a drug, it contains a nervous toxine, so theoretically you are intoxicated by coffee rather than drugged.

edit on 16/12/2010 by Pakd-on-mystery because: (no reason given)

Don't you think you're being just a little bit obtuse? All of the biggest products in the world are addictive. Alcohol is by far the most horrible addictive substance that there is. I've seen people have to get their legs amputated because of it. The whole point is that the approach that the governemnt have taken has NOT reduced drug consumption - it has increased it.

Originally posted by Pakd-on-mystery
reply to post by Kryties

 

In jail I learnt how to inject speed into my penis for an awesome sexual high

that is about the most disturbing thing I've ever heard...

You should have been there when the bloke tried to demonstrate it to me - I will never ever sleep well again I tells ya lol.

No matter who produces drugs, no matter how pure the drugs are, as an understander in drug addiction, you will probably agree that drugs are still very dangerous.

I absolutely agree - but the fact it that a large percentage of the population is going to take the drugs whether they are illegal or not - the advantage of taking them legal is that you can be assured you are not going to end up in hospital poisoned by Draino bleach filler.

It's a no-brainer really. Drugs are here to stay whether people like them or not. Wouldn't it be best to minimise their effects on society as much as possible rather than jail everybody and put the onus on the taxpayer?

reply to post by Pakd-on-mystery

...Making alcohol legal hasn't been the end of the world, although statistically, every 3rd adult in Europe is an alcoholic, which must be the result of a lack of education in my opinion....

Making something illegal does not make that "something" go away. In the case of the USA it has actually made the situation worse.

The fracturing of American society is the real problem not education. Until I looked at this graph I didn't realize to what extent that was true.

Take a good hard look at this graph, it is shocking!



Now to connect the other dots.

This transformation was the result of organized plans developed by a group of highly powerful " though unelected " financial and industrial executives who wanted to drastically change agricultural practices in the US to better serve their collective corporate financial agenda. This group, called the Committee for Economic Development, was officially established in 1942 as a sister organization to the Council on Foreign Relations....

...A report published in 1962 entitled "An Adaptive Program for Agriculture"[3] is even more blunt in its objectives, leading Time Magazine to remark that CED had a plan for fixing the identified problem: "The essential fact to be faced, argues CED, is that with present high levels farm productivity, more labor is involved in agriculture production that the market demands " in short, there are too may farmers. To solve that problem, CED offers a program with three main prongs."

Some of the report's authors would go on to work in government to implement CED's policy recommendations. Over the next five years, the political and economic establishment ensured the reduction of "excess human resources engaged in agriculture" by two million, or by 1/3 of their previous number....

The human cost of CED's plans were exacting and enormous.

CED's plans resulted in widespread social upheaval throughout rural America, ripping apart the fabric of its society destroying its local economies. They also resulted in a massive migration to larger cities. The loss of a farm also means the loss of identity, and many farmers' lives ended in suicide [6], not unlike farmers in India today who have been tricked into debt and desperation and can see no other way out.[7]

www.opednews.com...

The explosion in the number of incarcerations does not come after WWII. It does not come after the baby boomers hit the work force. It comes after the CED rips apart the fabric of its society causing a massive migration to larger cities.

This is also the time period when American business is driven out of the USA thanks to massive red tape. OSHA was signed into law late in 1969 and the EPA began operation on December 2, 1970.

LEVERAGED BUYOUTS: AMERICAN PAYS THE PRICE - January 29, 1989

"....These days, corporations seem to exist for the investment bankers.... In fact, investment banks are replacing the publicly held industrial corporations as the largest and most powerful economic institutions in America....

THERE ARE SIGNS THAT A VICIOUS spiral has begun, as each corporate player seeks to improve its standard of living at the expense of another's. Corporate raiders transfer to themselves, and other shareholders, part of the income of employees by forcing the latter to agree to lower wages.
New York Times

Again look at the chart of incarcerations it shows the results of the ripping apart of American society followed by the outsourcing of American jobs. In 1970 - 24% of Americans were engaged in manufacturing, now it is less than 9% and the big four employers are the US government, Walmart, Kelly Temp services (office staff) and McDonalds! Do you think someone like me trained as a chemist and lab manager is HAPPY working for Wally Mart???

The surge in the use of Alcohol and drugs (and incarcerations) parallels the surge in despair

reply to post by Kryties


Yes they are selling it to just anyone, im from one of the roughest areas in the north east UK and believe me when i say there isnt nothing you cant get if you wanted it. Alchohol, cigarettes, heroin, cannabis, coc aine in fact anything to give you a high or low is readily available if you know the people to ask. Dont give me that rubbish about heroin addicts only robbing because of there being no price control on drugs etc. if the government legalized any drug the price would be way way higher than anyone is paying now. You may be an intelligent individual, i really cant say as its the first time (i think) we've debated on any subject, but this is one topic that your way off the mark on.

Prohibition does not work.
The current policy does not work.

Elements within nearly every, if not every, human society and culture have used intoxicants and narcotics of one form or another since time immorial.
And they will continue to do so regardless.
To suggest other is naivety to the exteme and ignorance of human history and nature.

That we allow outdated moral prejudices to continue to determine policy in direct contravention of all other evidence quite frankly beggars belief and suggests that other unspoken considerations and motives are contrubuting to the current policy.

Originally posted by Catch_a_Fire
reply to post by Kryties

 

if the government legalized any drug the price would be way way higher than anyone is paying now.

Do you have any proof of this? Because all the proof I am finding (including evidence from Spain and the Netherlands) is telling me the complete opposite.

reply to post by Freeborn


I'll report those stats to the Express - probably why the've lifted the story. Apologies - you can understand my horror. The problem remains a serious issue. Paisley - Scotland's largest town is a good example. I call it an imaginary town centre - all the shops are closed with 'Imagine your Department Store Here' signs and optical illussional photos to disguise the empty units.

The streets are full of addicts, be they methadone users, heroin users, crack users, and many more alcoholics. Not a pleasant place for kids to grow up. (The town has some great people but raising a kid there must be difficult).

reply to post by Kryties


Just look at the UK's taxation, we pay more for petrol than most if not all other countries, we pay a ridiculous amount for legal shop bought cigarettes, alchohol has a high amount of taxation on it, theres even talk of taxing soft drinks??.

My point is it would solve very little in this country, IMO.

Originally posted by Catch_a_Fire
reply to post by Kryties

 

..... im from one of the roughest areas in the north east UK .......

Geordie, Mackem or Smoggie?

I'm from North East England.

Originally posted by Catch_a_Fire
reply to post by Kryties



Current UK taxes for petrol, smokes and alcohol does not prove that legalising drugs will make their price go up. All the evidence suggests it is quite to the contrary actually.

reply to post by Freeborn


LOL, smoggie and proud of it, not sure why though.