Guns in the UK? No !!!

reply to post by orangetom1999


It's not that I have an overriding distrust of the British public - well ok, perhaps a little, but it's the responsibility issue that concerns me. Can the current generation, brought up on a diet of violent video games and gangster rappers waving firearms about in videos be trusted to act responsibly with a firearm and not start waving it about to impress their mates after a few beers?

As an ex sports shooter I'd love to be able to re-acquire a good semi-auto rifle for target shooting and perhaps a handgun or two, again for target use. Problem is, the general public have been conditioned to think anyone not police or military with a firearm is a criminal and a danger to society, in much the same way they have been conditioned to think there is a pedophile on evey street corner.
It's this false, but government nurtured, public perception that keeps the firearms bans in place. Firearms will never be available in the UK for home defence, like they are elsewhere, but at least the sporting community should be able to engage in their sports that were never a threat to anyone.

Banning Guns In the U.K. Has Backfired ...

Crime was not supposed to rise after handguns were banned in 1997. Yet, since 1996 the serious violent crime rate has soared by 69%: robbery is up by 45% and murders up by 54%. Before the law, armed robberies had fallen by 50% from 1993 to 1997, but as soon as handguns were banned the robbery rate shot back up, almost back to their 1993 levels.

The 2000 International Crime Victimization Survey, the last survey done, shows the violent-crime rate in England and Wales was twice the rate in the U.S. When the new survey for 2004 comes out, that gap will undoubtedly have widened even further as crimes reported to British police have since soared by 35%, while declining 6% in the U.S.

johnrlott.tripod.com...

Originally posted by hawkiye

Banning Guns In the U.K. Has Backfired ...

Crime was not supposed to rise after handguns were banned in 1997. Yet, since 1996 the serious violent crime rate has soared by 69%: robbery is up by 45% and murders up by 54%. Before the law, armed robberies had fallen by 50% from 1993 to 1997, but as soon as handguns were banned the robbery rate shot back up, almost back to their 1993 levels.

The 2000 International Crime Victimization Survey, the last survey done, shows the violent-crime rate in England and Wales was twice the rate in the U.S. When the new survey for 2004 comes out, that gap will undoubtedly have widened even further as crimes reported to British police have since soared by 35%, while declining 6% in the U.S.

johnrlott.tripod.com...

edit on 15-12-2010 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)

That's a little misleading.
Violent crime in the UK has not risen as a result of the firearms bans, as nobody was licensed to hold firearms for defence purposes in the first place. Those people who kept firearms that were banned by the government did so purely for shooting sports. Firearms certificate holders were just as likely to be victims of robbery or violent crime - with or without the use of firearms - as any other member of society.

Think Tough Gun Laws Keep Europeans Safe? Think Again...

By John R. Lott, Jr.

It wasn't supposed to happen in England, with all its very strict gun control laws. And yet last week Derrick Bird shot and killed 12 people and wounded 11 others. A headline in The Times of London read: "Toughest laws in the world could not stop Cumbria tragedy."

Multiple victim public shootings were assumed to be an American thing for it is here the guns are, right? No, not at all. Contrary to public perception, Western Europe, where most countries have much tougher gun laws, has experienced many of the worst multiple victim public shootings. Particularly telling, all the multiple victim public shootings in Europe occurred where guns are banned. So it is in the United States, too -- all the multiple victim public shootings (where more than three people have been killed) have taken place where civilians are not allowed to have a gun.

Look at recent history. Where have the worst K-12 school shootings occurred? It has not been in the U.S. but Europe. The very worst one occurred in a high school in Erfurt, Germany in 2002, where 18 were killed. The second worst took place in Dunblane, Scotland in 1996, where 16 kindergarteners and their teacher were shot. The third worst high school attack, with 15 murdered, happened in Winnenden, Germany. The fourth worst shooting was in the U.S. -- Columbine High School in 1999, leaving 13 killed. The fifth worst school related murder spree, with 11 murdered, occurred in Emsdetten, Germany.

With three of the worst five attacks, Germany may be a surprise to those who believe in gun control. Even by European standards, Germany has some of the strictest gun control laws. Indeed, these laws are far stricter than existing gun control in the U.S., or for that matter, the restrictions currently being discussed in the United States.

Though not quite as tight as U.K. regulations, Germany has strict licensing and registration requirements. German licenses are only valid for three years and to obtain a gun license people must demonstrate such hard-to-define characteristics as trustworthiness as well as convince authorities that they have a necessity for a gun. This comes on top of requirements against mental disorders, drug or alcohol addictions, violence or aggressive tendencies, and felony convictions.

The attacks in Europe might not get as much attention in the U.S. or even in other countries in Europe besides where the attack occurred as the attack in the U.S., but multiple victim public shootings appear to be at least as common in Europe as they are here. The following is a partial list of attacks occurring in Europe since 2001. As mentioned, all of them occurred in gun free zones, places where guns in the hands of civilians were not allowed:

- Zug, Switzerland, September 27, 2001: a man murdered 15 members of a cantonal parliament. - Tours, France, October 29, 2001: four people were killed and 10 wounded when a French railway worker started killing people at a busy intersection in the city. - Nanterre, France, March 27, 2002: a man kills eight city councilors after a city council meeting. - Erfurt, Germany on April 26, 2002: a former student kills 18 at a secondary school. - Freising, Germany on February 19, 2002: Three people killed and one wounded. - Turin, Italy on October 15, 2002: Seven people were killed on a hillside overlooking the city. - Madrid, Spain, October 1, 2006: a man kills two employees and wounds another at a company that he was fired from. - Emsdetten, Germany, November 20, 2006: a former student murders 11 people at a high school. - Southern Finland, November 7, 2007: Seven students and the principal were killed at a high school. - Naples, Italy, September 18, 2008: Seven dead and two seriously wounded in a public meeting hall (not included in totals below because it may possibly have involved the mafia). - Kauhajoki, Finland, Sept. 23, 2008: 10 people were shot to death at a college. Winnenden, Germany, March 11, 2009: a 17-year-old former student killed 15 people, including nine students and three teachers. - Lyon, France, March 19, 2009: ten people injured after a man opened fire on a nursery school. - Athens, Greece, April 10, 2009: three people killed and two people injured by a student at a vocational college. - Rotterdam, Netherlands, April 11, 2009: three people killed and 1 injured at a crowded cafe. Vienna, Austria, May 24, 2009: one dead and 16 wounded in an attack on a Sikh Temple. - Espoo, Finland, Dec. 31, 2009: 4 killed while shopping at a mall on New Year's Eve. - Cumbria, England, June 2, 2010: 12 people killed by a British taxi driver. So how does this compare to the United States? The University of Chicago’s Bill Landes and I have collected data on all the multiple victim public shootings in the United States from 1977 to 1999 (for a discussion of that information see the newly revised third edition of my book "More Guns, Less Crime"). If we only examine those cases where 4 or more people have been killed in an attack, the worst such attack was the Luby's Cafeteria shooting in which 23 people died. On average 10.56 people have died each year.

One reason for limiting the cases to attacks with 4 or more deaths is that I haven't collected all the cases in Europe, and the quick review here will miss fewer of the larger cases... johnrlott.tripod.com...

reply to post by shauny


Government has all the guns, and are well educated on how to use them. The people however, not so much.

Originally posted by shauny
I know a lot of my friends (like some of you) over the pond keep guns, and I respect the reasons why, there are a lot of guns in your country.

It got me thinking however, is it the right thing?
We had had 1 maybe 2 shootings in my City (Edinburgh, Scotland) since I can remember, and both were drivebye's.
Never heard of someone (here in the uk) getting thier house broken into and using a gun.

I think having guns is wrong.
Its like nuclear weapons, Country A has them because Country B has them.

There never has been a mass call to allow people to bare arms, or allow guns, and I would opposed BIG TIME.
The more guns you allow, the will, like everything end up in the wrong hands.

In England there are a few more gun stories, few more killings, dont know why that is.
But in the main, we are kind of gun free in a way. I dont think I could go out and get a gun tonight, put it that way (not that I would need one, why? because nobdu else has them)

I would be terrified to live in a country where I knew guns were all over.
Question to my friends over in the USA.

Does having a gun, and knowing others have guns, make you feel safer?
If everyone was to told to get rid of thier guns and was like here, how would you feel?

I know I might get a but of slack here, but I genuinly am just interested.

Thanks
Shauny

hehe, Creator forbid the U.K. have guns, you all might become a world power again.
No, seriously guns do not kill people. People kill people whether it is with guns, knives,
cars, bombs planes, trains you name it. Have you not noticed that only the Military, Police,
criminals and hunters have weapons in your country? The people are totally defenseless
against all of the above mentioned, not a good situation to be in if the SHTF.

Originally posted by triplesod

Originally posted by butcherguy

Originally posted by thedoctorswife
reply to post by TheFallOfRa

 

I hope i never live to see firearms legalised in the UK. I believe knife crime is a serious issue here however.

Why in the heck do they let you people have knives?

People could get hurt...

Or cut a tender steak into bite size morsels or something.

Guess what... knives were designed with many more functions in mind than simply to kill.
The gun was designed and still made simply to kill. That is its only use. It is a machine of death.

Can you really not understand that? Do you honestly think your argument was valid and that guns and knives are comparable?

No. I can't expect you to comprehend this, but my point is this....

If the public in your country can't be trusted with guns, why should they trusted to carry knives?

OH BTW: Really? Knives have another purpose? WOW! I guess if you re-read my last line about STEAK, you would know that I am aware of that, EH????

An armed populace is one of the few things preventing governments from going totalitarian.

The people who use guns for bad have them anyway here in the UK, im only 16 but im pretty sure i could get hold of a handgun in only a few days if i wanted... ive had offers before and im definitely NOT in with the people who do that kinda stuff, £400 will get you a Barretta handgun (not sure what type) and a loaded mag.

reply to post by stimmy


400 pound for a barretta, it must be a re-bore. you can make a shotgun anyway out of a couple of pipes and a staple gun or just bore out a blank fire'r and all you need is a few bullets but they are pricey in the uk, not like in america where you can get them while buying your bread and milk.

As an ex soldier I miss having an assault rifle or two and copious ammo on my person


*sigh*


But have to agree with the OP purely for the sake of our beleaguared Royal Mail employees.

"Going postal" wouldnt cut it!

reply to post by searching4it
I totally agree with you. Here in England people still do not understand that the influx of immigrants from Eastern European and Middle Eastern countries carrying of weapons is second nature to them. Like "you going out tonight son"? "Yes dad". "Alright them son you can look after yourself then". My son have never even seen a Kalasnikov or an Uzi let alone fired one. Yet we are getting 10 and 12 year old Africans coming into the UK who have owned and used them to kill peoplr since they were 8 years old. In the Middle East it is a sign of manhood and their relatives present them with daggers. Don't say they are just ceremonial cas they can kill you just as well. If like in some Balkan states and the proverbial hits the fan, our native people will be ethnic cleansed before we've even armed ourselves let alone taught how to use guns.

I truly envy you guys in the US and to the people who say 'Britain doesn't need or want firearms'...that's a very bold statement to make, speak for yourself but don't speak for others!

I live somewhere where a good few murders have occured recently, one as recent as a few days ago and no more than 100m away from my front door, it was also one that could have easily been prevented if we had the right to bear arms and defend oursleves in our own homes. Instead, people are stabbed/beaten to death IN THEIR OWN HOMES and have no way of fighting back and no deterrent to stop it in the first place.

As it stands, a lot of criminals have guns, they do NOT care if it is illegal, clearly, as they are involved in other illegal stuff anyway, so what difference does it make to them?

Scenario A: Gun laws are revoked, the populace have access to firearms for personal protection and the right to fire on an intruder. You wake up one night to a noise downstairs, you reach into your bedside drawer, pick up your handgun and proceed to investigate. As you reach the top of the stairs you catch a glimpse of a man in your lounge, rifling through your drawers, not wanting him to see you until you can assess the situation better, you slowly creep to a better position, this is when you notice his gun on the table. You wait a few minutes, just to make sure he is alone, he is. He then makes his way to the door and looks like he is about to head your way...upstairs. You quickly move out of sight as he starts to head upstairs towards you and your sleeping children. As he is about to get to the last few stairs you step out from the shadows, gun pointed at his head and tell him he has 30 seconds to get the hell out or you will shoot. You have the higher ground and you have your gun drawn. He is still on the stairs and his gun is by his side...either he runs or you shoot him...either way, you and your family and your belongings are safe.


Scenario B: Firearms are illegal to own unless you hold a licence, even then, handguns are still outlawed. They must be kept in a secured unit at all times and 'reasonable force' is your only defence against an intruder.
You wake up one night to a noise downstairs, you get out of bed to go and investigate. As you reach the top of the stairs you catch a glimpse of a man in your lounge, rifling through your drawers, not wanting him to see you until you can assess the situation better, you slowly creep to a better position, this is when you notice his gun on the table. You suddenly begin to panic, he has a GUN! You quickly creep to the phone in your room and dial 999, whispering to the operator and trying to get all the info across without being heard...you hear the familiar creek from the 6th stair...he is coming upstairs where you are and where your childrens room is. The police operator is telling you to stay calm and that a car will be there soon, but instinct takes over and you run into the hall as you can hear the door of your childrens bedroom open...the man turns around, points the gun at your head and tells you that if you make a sound he will shoot your family in front of you..

Scenario B can end in a variety of ways...rape/murder/kidnap or perhaps he just steals your money and jewellery...The police arrive 5 mins later and clean up whatever mess is left...

Now...I know which I would prefer.

reply to post by snowgirl


or you could wait til he gets to the top of the stairs and stab him in the neck, but i dont think many burglars carry guns in the uk unless they are intending to do an aggravated burglary generally in rich rural areas. but guess what if you live in a wealthy rural area you will probably own atleast an achre of land, you can then register as a farmer, apply for a gun licence, buy yourself a nice big shotgun and kill 16 year old burglars. the only thing is you might spend about 6-12 months in jail.

also can i just make one point, if you are caught carrying a knife on your person you get an automatic jail term so people are not trusted to carry knives in the uk but you could buy one every couple of hours, throwing away the last one and keep your receipt, then you would be ok.

reply to post by shauny


How many elderly are robbed and they could have kept it from happening if they had a gun.?

How many people are clubbed or knifed?

I think it is wonderful that you believe that you should be protected by your government, and it is even greater that they can make you do what ever they feel because they have the guns.

This is why you are a subject and I am a Citizen.

I can protect my freedom you have to wait for your government to show up.

reply to post by Britguy

That's a little misleading. Violent crime in the UK has not risen as a result of the firearms bans, as nobody was licensed to hold firearms for defence purposes in the first place. Those people who kept firearms that were banned by the government did so purely for shooting sports. Firearms certificate holders were just as likely to be victims of robbery or violent crime - with or without the use of firearms - as any other member of society.

So the 68% jump in violent crime was just a coincidence that happened to coincide with the gun ban??? Perhaps you could then give us the real reason for such an astronomical jump in crime since the gun ban???

Sigh, here we go again.

As most of you already know, I live in Cumbria, UK, when Derrick Bird went on his shooting rampage 6 months or so ago, two of his twelve victims were friends of mine, one of them close.

Now, he was a nice(ish) guy who just snapped one day, and he owned his guns legally. There are a lot of not so nice people round here, and in a lot of the UK, who might pull a knife or a bat, they might throw bricks, but give them guns? No, all hell would break loose.

I know you say if everyone is armed they could defend themselves, but in the UK it would just turn into all out shootings, UK gangs are unpredictable and violent, even the average citizen, like Derrick Bird is more than capable of flipping out. Can you imagine if the student protesters were armed???

Guns are available for a price, but the law puts most people off, and a lot of people just don't want them.

Air rifles are legal, and fun for target practise or shooting the occasional seagull, other than that? No thanks.

I will add that I have fired a number of "real" guns // rifles (9mm Browning, SA80, LSW, GPMG, hell, even an anti tank weapon, lol) on proper ranges, and yeah, it's great, but there's a time and a place.

Anyway, I have a 42" Scottish broadsword sat here if anyone tries to kick my doors in

maybe an easier way would be to legalise thase tazer guns that the police use, but only for use in your own home and give out prison sentances to any one carrying one outside.

Originally posted by ACTS 2:38
reply to post by shauny

 

How many elderly are robbed and they could have kept it from happening if they had a gun.?

How many people are clubbed or knifed?

I think it is wonderful that you believe that you should be protected by your government, and it is even greater that they can make you do what ever they feel because they have the guns.

This is why you are a subject and I am a Citizen.

I can protect my freedom you have to wait for your government to show up.

?

And you live in a Country where its acceptable, and you believe its the best for your Country and I respect you for that.

I am 37 years old, and I have never waited on the "Government coming" ?

If someone breaks into your house, you shoot then dead, wouldnt the "Government" come still?

Originally posted by Britguy
reply to post by orangetom1999

 

It's not that I have an overriding distrust of the British public - well ok, perhaps a little, but it's the responsibility issue that concerns me. Can the current generation, brought up on a diet of violent video games and gangster rappers waving firearms about in videos be trusted to act responsibly with a firearm and not start waving it about to impress their mates after a few beers?

As an ex sports shooter I'd love to be able to re-acquire a good semi-auto rifle for target shooting and perhaps a handgun or two, again for target use. Problem is, the general public have been conditioned to think anyone not police or military with a firearm is a criminal and a danger to society, in much the same way they have been conditioned to think there is a pedophile on evey street corner.
It's this false, but government nurtured, public perception that keeps the firearms bans in place. Firearms will never be available in the UK for home defence, like they are elsewhere, but at least the sporting community should be able to engage in their sports that were never a threat to anyone.

BritGuy,

I agree with you in that I am choosy about with whom I spend my time and monies. The company with whom I choose to keep. I don't drink much simply because I have better things to do with my time and monies earned often at great risk. I am not against drink. I just don't care to make a career move out of drinking. I am not that social a creature and don't care who approves of it. That is just me.

I agree with you about the responsibility angle..not just with a firearm..but with any tool or gadget.

Agree once again with your concept of to many peoples being raised on a diet of video games,movies, text messaging, and anything that breeds appearance rather than real life useful skills/knowledge. Mostly consumption rate skills..high maintenance skills. I am running into more and more of these peoples who live artificially in this kind of envelope and they tend to think this is normal and to be admired...followed like an idol or groupie. I tend to stay away from these peoples as well.

Many of these peoples tend towards being raised on Amusements.

A....without
Muse.....thinking..

Without thinking.....amuse/amusement. Something privily spoon fed to us to prevent thinking.



as to this...

Problem is, the general public have been conditioned to think anyone not police or military with a firearm is a criminal and a danger to society, in much the same way they have been conditioned to think there is a pedophile on every street corner.

I don't think this BritGuy. But I have spent a lifetime trying to break out of public school thinking standards or what I also call non standards. For I know Britguy that a politician can be just as much a crook or coercer as a street criminal. And the police/constabulary are nothing more than an extension of the political system. They do not have our individual interests at heart ..or the public felicity. I know that it is about the political parties first ..and the public somewhere further down the line. The UK is much further along in this template than we here in the USA though someone is working very hard to make us more like Brits and Continentals. I am not interested in being a Brit or Continental.
I believe as the founders here did...that the best government one can have is the least government one can have.
You folks in the UK are rapidly going or returning back to Divine Right of Kings or Absolute Power in that the government is becoming the absolute determiner of everything in the nation and to the detriment of the people of the UK and their individual liberty.
Someone is trying very hard to sneak privily that very system into the USA without most being aware of it...and thus nullifying our gun rights along with the other ten Amendments.

When I have time I like to sport shoot. I am not much of a hunter. I prefer fishing to hunting. Unfortunately such time has been at a premium in the last six months. Fishing as well as shooting.
I agree it is a government sponsored perception.

The main difference here is that it is a fundamental right of the American Citizen..not one granted by the Government or Sovereign as is the case in the UK and on the Continent.

Our Whorish politicians and ersatz leaders have tried hard for many years using underhanded methods to explain away the Fundamental right of Americans as a Privilege granted by a Sovereign ..just as in the UK and the Continent. The media and public education shilling for their respective political parties have gone along with this and carried the water for such whorish politicians/leaders.

I am not just talking about the 2nd Amendment but all the other Amendments in the first Ten of the Bill of Rights.
They are attempting to whore these out to the body politic as well.


Thanks for your post BritGuy,

Orangetom