Why do Americans need guns? Rip UP the Second Amendment, problem solved.

Originally posted by Lagrimas
reply to post by projectvxn

 

True that.
makes me think of the famous Noam Chumsky quote.

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for
people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."

edit on 14-12-2010 by Lagrimas because: spelling

what a great quote.

It sort of gets to the crux of the matter. Life, liberty, property, the three pillars. All free men have the right and the responsibility to protect these rights even if it gives those we dispise that same right. The possession of a gun by a free, responsible,law abiding man, to be used in a responsible and lawful way constitues no more a danger than many other activities, and products one might own, or do. (knife, axe, sword, tazer, ect ect ect) and yet has the benificial effects of deterring crime, and protecting the public, as well as a deterrence to the very governnent that must tolerate it. Our founding fathers were educated men and thoughtful men. They understood from their study of history that sooner or later all governments become opressive, and fall. It is for those times that our founding fathers thought to make sure that free men had the ability to protect their life, liberty , and property . It will be in those times of anarchy and despotism, that for there will be need for each man to take up his arms and stand, I really would prefer to stand with a gun in my hand.

reply to post by Advantage


Trust me, if the average citizen was not apathetic like what seems to be the case, if everyone wanted to expose that kind of corruption and utilized every means possible to do so, something would get done. Masses of individuals who want actual change will speak louder than any single official ever could.

Originally posted by kevinunknown

Let me answer your questions.

“Why do Americans need guns?”

Self Defense. Enough Said.

To me guns are inherently evil objects that have been designed to kill our fellow man and therefore are evil as is to use a gun to kill.

Sure, the UK outlawed firearms and only criminals now have firearms..... Kind of dumb. Anyway, now you have Knife problems and some of the solutions are crazy... outlaw cooking knives, you got to be kidding. People will kill, hurt and maim. A firearm is only an object, as the knife, bat, or whatever you guys decide to intimidate and kill each other with. A firearm is the "equalizer". It makes the physically weak such as the elderly have a fighting chance against a larger opponent or group.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

There were 9,865 firearm offences in 2007/08, a rise of 89 per cent on the 5,209 recorded in 1998/99. Lancashire Police saw a 598 per cent increase from just 50 to 349 over the period while Staffordshire, Warwickshire and Essex all saw five fold increases. Some 1,760 gun related injuries or deaths were provisionally recorded for 2008/09, compared with 864 in 1998/99.

Yep, nowhere near the U.S. but hey, we can shoot back! Your sheep hoping the big bad wolf goes for someone else. Hell, look at the stats, HALF of our gun deaths are suicides. If they want to off themselves, a gun is just easier than ramming your car into a tree I guess. Sure, we have more gun deaths but cars and swimming pools kill more kids than guns. We would rather have the right of self defense than be victims. Fight back beats being a victim any day of the week.

Further to this there have been a number of high profile shootings in America were a gun man has committed multiple homicide or gang warfare has resulted in innocents being killed. Now with that in mind how can you possibly say that the right to bear arms is justified? Yes, What you need to understand is CRIMINALS DO NOT follow the LAWS. They will get firearms if they want them. Your on a damned island and yet your criminals get guns, think of us, DRUGS come into this country by the TON. Every criminal who wants a firearm in the U.S. will get one easily, Laws or Not. WHAT part of that argument do you not understand... BY THE TONS crap comes into this country, let alone people. I wouldn't even think of bringing up the topic of gun control until the borders were actually secure because that would be suicide.

Yes some people need guns to do their jobs such as game keepers, farmers and law enforcement but why does Joe the plumber really need one. Self Defense AND Deterrent... Enough said again, see reason above.

Deterrent you ask? Yes, My god, think if the criminals in this country KNEW the population was disarmed. Today OVER 1 in 3 households own firearms (it was 36% in 2001, much higher now). If criminals knew who actually DON'T own firearms, THAT becomes a target. (See gun free zones and ask why the massacres always seem to happen in "gun free" zones. It is like holding up a neon sign that says "nobody will fire back at you Kook".

The argument is always that it’s for self defense, that way if someone pulls a gun on a knife on you, you can protect yourself. It’s a hard one to argue against, but surly if it were the case that gun’s were outlawed or heavily regulated it would lead to a overall reduction in the number of firearms owned and therefore the odds of someone pulling a gun on you would be greatly reduced therefore you wouldn’t have to own a fire arm and the odds would fall further. Incorrect. It would simply mean the law abiding public would be restricted and since the criminals don't follow the law, you would have created "open season" on crime. Again, TONS of dope and millions of people flow illegally into the US every year, anyone who wanted a gun would get one EVEN IF the magic gun ferry took all firearms out of the U.S. tonight. Criminals would quickly re-arm.

In any case you can never be sure it’s going to help your odds, if two gun men mug you or break into your house you’re already on the losing side. Now baring in mind that there are almost enough firearms America for every citizen the robbers are going to know you have a gun in your house, they are going to be prepared and have the element of surprise on their side. You would be surprised how untrue this is.

Go here: www.nraila.org...

Select a "state" in the drop-down and hit Go. Read and be amazed!

Now am sorry to spit on your 2nd amendment right, but for me self defense is not a valid argument for defending the 2nd amendment. Your crazy. The 2nd amendment IS the RIGHT of Self Defense against ANYONE who would do you harm.

Also the ability to carry arms has been severely restricted by the Gun-Free School zones act of 1990 signed by Gorge H W Bush, which is ironic considering that 41% of republicans own a firearm compared to only 23% of democrats so kudos to Bush.

Yeah, can you say that worked well, at least 60 school shootings since 1990 and again, GUN FREE ZONE means nobody is going to shoot back. It is a Kooks Dream! Fish in a barrel.


I need my guns to protect myself for when the government turn on its people and try to through us all in the FEMA camps”. Yeah, I am kind of with you here but hey, the same reasoning, YOU have the right to defend yourself against ANYONE who wants to do you or your family harm period.

So can someone please tell me why you need a gun? In the UK I know no one who owns a gun, and no one I know has ever been disadvantaged because of this why is it that the worlds “super power” is any different, Gun Laws are out of date, rip up the second amendment and join the 21st century . Again, your crazy. Your secluded geographically on an island and gun control may work for you but this isn't a little island, the US is huge, we have a porous, practically non-existent border with a narco-state that can bring ANYTHING into the US by the truckload.

Don't get me wrong, even if the border problem was solved, I sure as hell wouldn't disarm myself.

Contrary to belief in the UK, it is every humans RIGHT to defend themselves and their family from harm. Prosecuting those who defend themselves over there is asinine.

Now my questions to you

Say you woke up and suddenly you had a Narco-State on your border, All of your criminal gangs were now armed to the teeth, you had 20,000 gun murders next year due to the increase in gangs, drugs, and guns. Many of the people you know were victims of home invasion, burglary, rape, etc and many of these could have been prevented if they only could defend themselves. Your criminals were bold because they knew you were sitting ducks and crime increased 10 fold. Your police and Government REFUSED to seal the border, things kept getting worse in urban areas where police would not even patrol parts of the city and your Supreme Court rules that Police aren't legally obligated to protect you.

Think you just might change your viewpoint? Were on our own Jack and were used to it. It is only getting worse in many areas (mostly those with strict gun control laws like D.C. and Chicago) and the only deterrent is the criminals knowing we can, will, and do fight back.

reply to post by kevinunknown


Once you start tearing up on amendmant where do you stop that is why. Then if all the good people give up their guns who is the only one with guns then the crims so it easier for them to get what they want right. Think about what it's like in England once rights start getting taken away they just keep going until we are all just mindless and don't think for ourselves.

I have a feeling you just want to argue thats fine but this is the only time I will look at this thread now I have said my piece

Originally posted by infolurker
Sure, the UK outlawed firearms and only criminals now have firearms..... Kind of dumb.

Exactly.

If we outlaw them, criminals are still going to have them.

If you think making guns illegal makes them disappear, you've been drinking too much fluoride.



Btw, about 'ripping up the 2nd amendment,' the NRA (National Rifle Association, with tens of thousands of zealous supporters in all 50 states) has a motto, "from my cold dead hands." Now what are you going to do about that?

This post would be the single most naive post on ATS were it not for the
underlying philosophical question of humans and weapons.

The easy answer to your question of why Americans need guns is to
protect themselves from tyranny of government. This is the founding
father's intention of the 2nd amendment--"...the right of the people to
keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Their purpose was to ensure
that the people of the union they created would have recourse to rid
themselves of the governance they created if that governance became
too oppressive. Their purpose was to provide, perpetually, a means to this
end. They framed our constitution with a firm grasp of the history of
human government in mind. And history teaches that power is a seductive
mistress--men will go to great lengths to achieve and maintain her.

As to the deeper philosophical question...

Humans, like all animals, are ruled by instinct--by survival of the fittest.
It is encoded in our DNA somewhere I'm sure. Life wants to succeed. It is
compelled to succeed. The sad consequence of this imperative (for
sentient animals) is that life is also sometimes compelled to exceed its
own conscious morality in its quest to win..."It is not enough that I
succeed, but that all others must fail." This quote exemplifies our greatest
human hurdle. Hopefully one day we as a species can replace our competitive
nature with logic and reason.

But until that day, I'll keep my protective weapons. Because I do not trust the
instinctual human beings around me...I have seen what they are capable of.

Originally posted by Badgered1
Okay....here's a big question:
What is the one thing that would bring you NRA members out to oppose your government?
My guess is that it's already happened, and yet nothing has happened.

Note to mods: I am certainly not trying to incite violence with this, far from it.

Lots of big talk, and hiding behind 'rights' and amendments and absolutely no action.
Has the US been invaded? Isn't that what everyone is crying about with the whole 'border wars' (note: When the US government says "WAR" on anything it actually means "Spending")? Not one gun carrier out there...Not one.
Leave it to the feds, and complain when things don't go well?

Note to OP: Sorry if I'm 'hijacking' here. I just get really fired up over this 'right' when nobody seems to be clear about why they carry/own weapons. Love your thread.

If you're a gun owner, and you post about the government not doing what you think is right, you are absolutely breaking down the reason you own a gun in the first place.
You all can't come to any sort of agreement on what is the turning point, so there's no point in you being armed.

You are right its gotta get beyond abstract legal arguments for trained gun owners and vets to put these tools to use. You see Nobody wants to use a gun on anybody, "Invasion" across the southern border( okay apparently some militia types have gotten involed down there; I' m on the other side of the country. the day we get mexican gangbangers( the invasion" cruising and attempting break ins on our our "working class" neighborhood streets it gets( beyond abstract) personal for me. (and the Ak and1911 come out of the locker every night before bed).

The thing about using gunfire for politics: the laws are on the books; its decentralized. The govt needs an enema; realistically there's no one place to stick the nozzle.

But if we all have at least a hunting rifle in the house any rogue government has to take that into consideration.before getting "freaky" with the populace.

More to your point: I fear things are really going to have to go obviously pear shaped before anything like you describe is done ; but if you don't already have those tools you will find it much harder to get them then Because of the help of the ( anti-gun) people in this thread. Obama was elected Guns and ammunition sales skyrocketted to historic highs..why: because people thought registration; bans; and ultimately confiscation were going to be "front burnered"( job one).

That's why its not pointless to have them before they come into play.( Its so obvious).

OP, why doesn't the UK get rid of its military and police force and all its nuclear arms and other forms of weaponry too?

Why not just get rid of everything that could even be used as a weapon?

Then no one would EVER do anything wrong! Right?

Originally posted by kevinunknown

I got into this debate recently but it seemed a little bit of topic so I thought I would take a risk and write a thread myself asking the above question “why do Americans need guns?”

Now to me I can understand why a farmer might own a few shotguns or a hunter might own a few hunting rifles but why does anyone need a semi-automatic, unless their objective is to kill. To me guns are inherently evil objects that have been designed to kill our fellow man and therefore are evil as is to use a gun to kill. Further to this there have been a number of high profile shootings in America were a gun man has committed multiple homicide or gang warfare has resulted in innocents being killed. Now with that in mind how can you possibly say that the right to bear arms is justified? Yes some people need guns to do their jobs such as game keepers, farmers and law enforcement but why does Joe the plumber really need one.

The argument is always that it’s for self defence, that way if someone pulls a gun on a knife on you, you can protect yourself. It’s a hard one to argue against, but surly if it were the case that gun’s were outlawed or heavily regulated it would lead to a overall reduction in the number of firearms owned and therefore the odds of someone pulling a gun on you would be greatly reduced therefore you wouldn’t have to own a fire arm and the odds would fall further. In any case you can never be sure it’s going to help your odds, if two gun men mug you or break into your house you’re already on the losing side. Now baring in mind that there are almost enough firearms America for every citizen the robbers are going to know you have a gun in your house, they are going to be prepared and have the element of surprise on their side.

Now am sorry to spit on your 2nd amendment right, but for me self defence is not a valid argument for defending the 2nd amendment. Also the ability to carry arms has been severely restricted by the Gun-Free School zones act of 1990 signed by Gorge H W Bush, which is ironic considering that 41% of republicans own a firearm compared to only 23% of democrats so kudos to Bush. This does mean though that as a law abiding citizen in a town or city you really can’t carry a gun knowing that you are not breaking a law. As such you would be better just not carrying one, so again if you get attacked by someone you shouldn’t have a gun to defend yourself in the first place because to be carrying said firearm you would be breaking the law.

The line that I love is this “we have places to keep people who can’t use their guns properly, they’re called prisons”. Very true, but you also have places called hospitals and mortuaries filled with the victims of the scum your keeping in prison, and thousands of homes full of grieving families. Would it not just be better to ban or regulate these guns out right that way no idiots going to prison and cheaper hospital bills and less tears.
Then we get to my favourite, the line that all gun loving conspiracy theorists loves. “ I need my guns to protect myself for when the government turn on its people and try to through us all in the FEMA camps”. If that is your reason for keeping a gun, then you shouldn’t be allowed to own a gun based on your sanity. This fantasy that one day the feds are going to come knocking at your door to put you on the FEMA bus, then you, in a spectacular move pull out your Glock and take them all out then spend the rest of your life like the incarnation of the movie Rambo: First Blood, is just a fantasy no more. It’s not going to happen and even if it does your guns won’t do you any good, you will either die or be put in the camps so again I don’t give that fantasy any credibility as a reason to keep a locker full of AR-15’s in bedroom.

So can someone please tell me why you need a gun? In the UK I know no one who owns a gun, and no one I know has ever been disadvantaged because of this why is it that the worlds “super power” is any different, Gun Laws are out of date, rip up the second amendment and join the 21st century .

Drugs are aganist the law but do you realize how easy it is to get them? Outlawing guns will only make things worse because it will give the drug cratels and others like them another product to sell on the black market and the criminals will still be able to get them and it will leave the citizens defenceless. I frankly don't get why your so concerned about if Americans own guns or not being as you are in the UK and not here.

It's simple.

We need gun's to protect ourselves from other people with gun's.

3RD

Originally posted by MITSwagger
It's simple.

We need gun's to protect ourselves from other people with gun's.

3RD

I'm fairly certain people were killing each other long before guns, hell long before swords.

A gun allows someone to protect themselves from a threat or to protect their families from one.

I honestly laugh at the people who think outlawing guns will somehow decrease the murder rate or take the fire arms out of the hands of those who seek to do harm onto others.

Not reading through 23 pages of a potential flame war to post this. However my opinion on this matter is this - Location: Scotland - no disrespect to our friends across the pond but you debating the second amendment of the United States is a moot point. It does not affect you or apply to you. You may have an opinion on individual gun ownership, everyone does, but do not use an amendment to our constitution as your whipping boy.

reply to post by kevinunknown


Here's my take on the issue:

If someone really wants to kill you, they certainly don't need a gun to do it.

However if you have a gun also, then there's a chance you could kill your assailant first.

It's pretty simple really.

Scotland huh?

Seems my t.v. addled movie influenced version of history remembers William wallace and you Scots kicked the british crown back across their borders with claymores and daggers and sheer intestinal forititude.what would have hapened if the crown made owning armament illegal for the Scottish subjects?

Same idea. nobody wanted to tussle but when times are such you'd rather risk dying a freeman than put up with incursions by govt thugs one more minute. you'd want the access to the tools to give yourself a fighting chance.

reply to post by kevinunknown


Six degrees of separation of gun owners protecting the Second Amendment:

Everybody I know owns guns.

Everybody I've ever known has owned guns.

Everybody who knows everybody I know owns guns.

Everybody even remotely related in any way to everybody I know, and to everyboby who knows everybody I know, all own guns.

All my ancestors have owned guns. All my children own guns. All their children will own guns.

Every girl I've ever dated has owned guns. We are all one big happy family of gun owners.

Sexy Bikini Girls With Guns
www.youtube.com...

The more guns you don't buy, we will buy. The more ammo you don't use, the more ammo we will use.

Ammunitiontogo.com
www.ammunitiontogo.com...

I don't see what the problem is. Supply and demand takes care of everything. Including protecting the Second Amendment and the rest of the Constitution of the United States.

Without the Second Amendment, they will steal all the other amendments. You might as well live in China.

reply to post by Brood

 

Maybe you didn't realize that those things weren't specifically designed to kill people?

So what your implying is that because these weren't specifically designed to kill people that its alright to turn a blind eye and be ignorant to the fact that they do kill?

Tobacco kills almost 20 times more people a year than guns do in America and you're trying to justify it with a smirky emoticon as if to say that I'm naive to the "intent of the design".I know the difference and it still doesn't change that facts are facts.

The fact is that the government makes tons of cash and there is no excuse, debate or justification that guns aren't half as detrimental to the health of everyone around them as tobacco. Also protecting one's self is a natural instinct which has been bred into us for centuries. That people actually depend on and trust others to protect them shows how they have become nothing more than a docile and domesticated pet which totally against natures design .

reply to post by kevinunknown


Hey Kevin!

I know you don't speak for the rest of your countryman, because if you did, these posts would be filled up with the same crap that your trying to get a rise out of us with. That piece of paper you say is "just a piece of paper and should be torn up anyway" is the piece of paper that kept your arse from speaking german. I would guess your in your 20s or early 30s and read mostly blogs. I probably know more about the history of your country than you know of mine. If you new more of mine, you would know that your ancesters left there because they were tired of the crap your facing now. Look around you Kevin and tell me if your country is worth fighting for. What are you going to fight with when TSHTF. "Mud sometimes gives the illusion of depth". You never commented on my last reply about Sterling Bridge being extensively built over. What a pity. Before I go, I want to leave you with something one of your countryman once said.."I'm William Wallace,and the rest of you will be spared, Go back to England and tell them....Scotland is free". Do you think that should be torn up? Let me leave you one from one of ours. "I know no way of judging the future but by the past".--PATRICK HENRY! I think I'll keep my guns!

reply to post by kevinunknown


"WHY DO AMERICANS NEED GUNS"
Well up to this point, I read about half of the 22 pages of answers. Only a very few hit the head on the Nail.

" Simply put" Americans need guns to Take Back their Government when it no longer serves the people."

All the other answers are BS and dance around the correct and true answer.There are approximately 360 million people in the U.S. there are about 300 million guns somewhere in the U.S. owned by about 100 million gun owners. some of them have one gun and some of them have five or ten guns. They range from a simple
22 cal.small game rifle or pistol to a barrett 50 Cal. sniper rifle that can reach out and touch someone at over a mile away if you know how to shoot it. There are weapons in between these two that include the full range of assault weapons and shot guns and hi powered hunting rifles.
We are well aware that there are moves by our own polictical forces to help pass U.N laws to ban these guns owned by Americans, we are also aware that there are foreign troops on our soil waiting for the word to impose Martial Law and start removing our weapons. We have all heard the bravado statement made by gun owners here in the U.S. that "they will not get my gun until they pry it from my cold ,dead hands." We also know that well over half the people that might make that kind of statement can be easily persuaded to give up their weapon so that only leaves a those willing to fight for their country that will take care of business when the time comes.
God bless us when that time come that we will have the courage to
"Stay the Course" ................KMG

Like the point made in the Penn & Teller vids:

Everybody benefits from concealed carry laws (even anti-gunners) because thieves,rapists murderers and would be muggers don't know who is armed. If you are anti-gun and do not have a "no guns in this house" sign in your front lawn ; you can kiss my fairly well armed buttocksand thank me for keeping the criminals on their toes for you) .

I lived in Europe 9 years I admire the total control the police have on their citizens. Pull a knife they shoot you. No ticket for the train , resist and they club you to the floor and drag you off. (I saw this). It was nice to go window shopping in downtown Frankurt at 2 in the morning and not be afraid. Let me tell you what is scarey. At 2am you and your wife are asleep in your bed. suddenly the door gets kicked open and 5 skin heads bust in because a drunk told them you had alot of cash just sitting around. Then try to imagine how it feels to see your wife with a butcher knife stuck against her throat, while they try to stomp you to death wanting to know where the money is! My daughter and son-inlaw experienced that! This is life in America, even in a sleepy town outside a big city. Everyones a critic till your a victim. My family knows first hand. I would have no hasitation to popping a cap in someones ##$% if my door bust open in the middle of the night.God Bless America!!