London swarming with protesting students

Wow!

Could this thread be more off topic?

Education is a responsibility that people don't take seriously.

If knowledge is power, the power is fading as it is horded and leaves with those that retained it.

Current state of world wide Infrastructure is the best example of where lack of education is hurting the so-called civilized world.

Originally posted by TedHodgson
In all honesty im not a judging man, But Kailassa and Astyanax really need to get a reality check.
The one known as "Purpledoguk" speaks with nothing less than the highest amount of intellgence wheras your words however are the words of Sheep that think they are in some way been opressed, If i give you an Apple and Its my Apple Then i decide to take it back, im in all rights to do so.
Under these circumstances students were given a chance at reduced fees at the cost of every honest worker in britain, The honest workers cannot fund you anymore because the Tax they have because of you is too great and its put this country in crisis, They have now taken back thier apple and however much you complain and pull paddys about it, it still was never yours to start off with.
Stop complaining, I went through all of Uni at a total cost to myself of £35000, I didnt get a loan, I got a job...And payed for my own education as i studied.
Those who cant be arsed to put in the effort shouldnt be given a chance in the first place

Stop whining about what you dont have and be happy for the things you do.

edit on 12/12/10 by TedHodgson because: spelling

Obviously your education did not include comprehension of the written language.

Firstly, the students are protesting because their fees are going up suddenly by about 200%.
Would you have liked to pay of that much instead of the reasonable amount you did pay?

Secondly, I'm not asking for your apple. I'm just providing evidence to show that the whole country benefits from having more well educated people.

Thirdly, don't make up stuff. I do not whine, and have not whined in any post on ATS ever.

Fourthly, I too paid for my education. I completed it before you were born.

reply to post by Kailassa



Kailassa

Where do I start with your last response ........ god it's Christmas.......

I am about to go and eat and I shall be back in a couple of hours to carry on our little chat......

I obviously can't multitask as well as you..... You must be a WOMAN

Regards

PDUK

Originally posted by zroth

Wow!

Could this thread be more off topic?

Education is a responsibility that people don't take seriously.

If knowledge is power, the power is fading as it is horded and leaves with those that retained it.

Current state of world wide Infrastructure is the best example of where lack of education is hurting the so-called civilized world.

Zroth

Thankyou for your reply and yes this has ''wandered'' a bit !! So far in fact that it has crossed a border, ducked under a checkpoint and made a dash for the sun.....

You are completely correct with ''knowledge is power'' and ''Education being a responsibility''.

My position is that Responsibility is held by the individual and NOT the state and if the conditions exist where the Individual has to ''INVEST'' in themselves because of the current climate then the Individual has to make a decision !

I think most of the Student 'Individuals' have become so used to having everything provided that they have no sense of Personal Responsibility !! THAT is the CRUX of this however un-paletable it is..

Regards

PDUK

reply to post by Kailassa


How is £35,000 reasonable?! Three times that much, Even more unreasonable but its not an underlying issue that needs to be addressed at the moment, I did a university course and a Masters in social sciences, I understand that the country would benifit from better education for all but most students clearly dont want a better education so much as a "Easy Ride" for a few years, The fact that theres so many stupid poeple in england is undeniable proof that not even easier education will help us, if they really want to make a difference they can all go out and do voluntary work and put something into society rather than milking it.
We should focus on getting rid of vanity and fashion, Greed and Social disorder and then we can start been a better country.
And were certainly not going to get anywhere by scwabbling over whos right on a conspiricy forum, Been older and "More comprehensible" Than me then this thought must have surely crossed you mind

reply to post by TedHodgson

Right, you consider the amount you paid was unreasonable, but you object to students protesting about that amount suddenly being increased by 200%.

Students wanting an easy ride, is that why some can graduate uni but still have no maths skills, little comprehension of the written word, and be unable to spell?

Personally I believe higher standards should be applied.

People wanting to get rid of "vanity and fashion" are usually badly dressed and ugly.
- Not that I'm suggesting that would apply to you.

As for greed, tell that to PurpleDog. He's the one who doesn't want to share his "apple," no matter how much good it might do the community. I'm quite happy to share mine.

Social disorder? How many trouble-making gang-members in the UK have university degrees, do you think?

Doing voluntary work is nice, but it does not make a country prosperous. It takes a well educated, hard-working population to do that.

I'm not in this thread for the "scwabbling" (sic).
I'm here because I found PurpleDog's insistance that dinosaurs are extinct amusing, and he has demonstrated an inclination to engage in discussion with me.

Kailassa

Oh My God........ you and I agree on something .....

Personally I believe higher standards should be applied.

However .........?!

As for greed, tell that to PurpleDog. He's the one who doesn't want to share his "apple," no matter how much good it might do the community. I'm quite happy to share mine.

Your wrong and Misleading others.... I am quite happliy sharing my apples provided they are shared correctly and shown to be used in the proper manner, eaten NOT p*ssed down the drain over a prolonged period.......... how that is monitored is a problem..!

Doing voluntary work is nice, but it does not make a country prosperous.

You seriously underestimate the value of Voluntary workers, may not be high brow but serves a VITAL purpose in any Civilased society and perhaps allows more 'prosperous' work to carry on.

Finally...
I'm here because I found PurpleDog's insistance that dinosaurs are extinct amusing, and he has demonstrated an inclination to engage in discussion with me.

Kailassa - I'm sorry to break this to you but Dinosaurs are extinct..... Jurrasic Park was a film....
Maybe ancestors walk amongst us in the form of raptors and veggie feathered friends but they are ancestors.... Are YOU or I Neanterdarls ???

Don't answer that question, I know what's coming next


PDUK

reply to post by PurpleDog UK

Your first point is basically the idea being suggested by the current Government.

That is correct.

Your second point is that you disagree with my point of view.... about me disapproving of paying taxes to fund ALL students to go and 'have a jolly' at University !!!

No, I object to why you disapprove. I object to your--here we go again--selfish, short-sighted, socially irresponsible and absurd attitude to the subject.

There is a worthwhile debate to be had about the relative merits and demerits of public and private funding for higher education. Your views have no place on any side of it, though. They are merely contemptible, and create a very shameful impression of their holder.

I can still hope they are unworthy of you as a person, though I have to say that hope is fading with every post you make on this thread.

And then you say ''I never said you derive a benefit from every student who goes to university''.

I never said it, nor was it implied by anything I did say.

If that is the case then Why, through taxation should I pay for ALL students trying to get a watered down degree in whichever subject they choose...???

Your taxes pay for all students? Who the heck are you, King Croesus or Warren Buffet? The few miserable thousands you cough up every year would fund the education of perhaps one university student--two at a pinch. No need to give yourself airs.

reply to post by TedHodgson

If i give you an Apple and Its my Apple Then i decide to take it back, im in all rights to do so.

The money you pay in taxes to the State is not your money. It belongs to the State, and is the price you pay for the services--starting with preserving your hide--the State provides you.

Under these circumstances students were given a chance at reduced fees at the cost of every honest worker in britain

Better than blowing it on lager and a punt down the bookies, innit?

You see how ugly things get when people start thinking and talking in stereotypes? British working men and women aren't Andy Capp, and students don't live cushy lives at State expense either.

The honest workers cannot fund you anymore because the Tax they have because of you is too great and its put this country in crisis

The planned cuts in university funding are due to over-generous government spending (mostly on other things, not education) during the New Labour years, as well as the recent financial crisis--which was primarily caused by 'honest workers' in rich countries getting themselves over their eyeballs in debt. The last people to be blamed for it are university students.

They have now taken back thier apple and however much you complain

I repeat: not their apple. It belongs to Her Majesty's Exchequer.

I went through all of Uni at a total cost to myself of £35000, I didnt get a loan, I got a job...And payed for my own education as i studied.

You never went to university, chum. Do you think people can't tell?

reply to post by Astyanax


So you provide a entirely weak argument for every point i make then claim i never went to Uni How do you come to these conclusions. Im currently doing volunteer social work to gain vital experience before Employment in social care, Your observations are useless and provide no insight into the conversation whatsoever par anything from proving my points further, Now thats a sign of someone who didnt get a proper education

Okay so here's how it goes.

I chose not to go to University for two simple reasons.
1) I didn't have Mummy and Daddy paying the fees. I'd have had to take a loan to pay for housing, equipment and the fees for the course.
2) I fell out of college with 5 High Graded A Levels and into a well paid job, I saw no point of going to university, wasting four years of my life to come out of it with a piece of paper saying I was good at something.

The increases in University Fees aren’t the only thing the government have changed. They've stopped students getting EMA. Now EMA was vital when I was at college. I was studying three art subjects, as well as juggling English Language and Lit as well. I got 30 Pounds every week straight into my bank, that 30 pounds was spent on the equipment I needed. At the time I was 17, I occasionally went out for the odd drink, but from 16 I took on a part time job to fund the odds and ends of teenage life.

With EMA being cancelled some students would not be funded for staying on at colleges and getting vital degrees. A lot of these colleges are the ones that have courses such as plumbing, electronics, etc etc. These courses I think are VITAL for keeping teenagers off the streets. I don't know if this happens in every area, but where I live, the people who didn't do so well in their GCSE's were the ones that left education at 16, went on to a college in the area to do courses in plumbing etc. They were what we'd call 'dead ends' until they realised they could go and do these courses and get a decent job when they came out the other side.

The way I see it, the increase in University Fees plus the cancellation of help for college students means we're going to have a lot more people leaving education at 16 unqualified for anything other than dossing around the streets. What's next for the new generation? Hard working, taxpaying citizens being mugged for a packet of fags?

Welcome to the new system.

reply to post by Astyanax



Astyanax

I find you ''clinically'' fascinating

After a 'tennis match'' of replies, it boils down to this.....

You and I 'agree' (?) on the first point.....ie.. the idea's being proposed by the current Government.

Then, the second point is that you disapprove of my reasons for not wanting to pay MORE tax to fund University student education.
May I suggest you read "dagar's post on page 4 and then you might understand my frustration with paying more tax as I share Dagar's views on that, as I think most sensible and intelligent individuals do !!

Reading some of your earlier threads leads me to think you are confused saying on one hand Education should be funded by the Government of the day BUT if that Government has no cash then it is the responsibility of the individual BUT then you take exception to my dislike of paying more tax (like most people in UK) and try to Vilify me for that view........ As I have said before I do not mind paying taxes and quite happily do so BUT I am NOT prepared to see them continually wasted with little or no accountability.

It has also been accepted that maybe there are too many degrees, students wanting degrees, pointless degrees... etc if that is the current case then what is wrong me me expressing the view of NOT wanting to carry on funding what appears to be a 'jolly' for some ??? In your world am I 'denied' my views ?? Would you lock me away for my difference of opinion ?? Your visceral tone suggests yes.....

Your pursuit of wanting to be "RIGHT" ultimately will lead you to be disappointed with most things I think (my own personal opinion and not the opinion of any other scientific analysis)

I also find your personal little insults really quite 'pathetic' and it leads me to believe that I must lend you a torch / flashlight because you are so far up your own 'derriere' that you probably need some light to find your way out.

At least your mate, Kailassa (I mean mate as in the Australian usage, and not in the sense of pair-bond) has a sense of humour....

PDUK

reply to post by stefplz


stefplz

I share your concerns about a generation of disaffect youths if support (ema) is removed, BUT don't we have that already in society ??

I do not think £30 per week actually acts as an incentive to learn, from what I understand it is paid for attendance NOT results......

I actually believe that it is down to individuals to WANT to learn. There are too many distractions, get rich quick by losing your clothes or doing a bit of Karaoke for Simon Cowell & Friends or becoming Famous et al...? The morals and ethics in society are all up in the air and no one really seems to want to fix them or even attempt to..

I do think at this stage of education support should be extended but NOT to drive the ''herd'' to University but maybe more vocational courses / learning and ultimately work.

PDUK

reply to post by PurpleDog UK


So you don't want your taxes to increase in order to pay for the education of others, yet they absolutely will go up despite cuts and despite the increase in tuition fees. I for one would rather more of my tax contrubution go towards education than the multitude of other completely wastefull "projects" the government choose to spend our money on. Paying for the education of others should be the least of your gripes. You present a decent argument, but, and if you'll forgive the pun, you're barking up the wrong tree.

reply to post by quackers


quackers

I hear what you say and completely agree with you. The whole way in which our Governments spend our money does seem somewhat wayward and appearing not to be always 'sensible' let's say.....

My specific issue with education is that I suspect a proportion of 'students' are Not really beneficial and are using education and it's support in a non productive way......

It's my opinion and many here do Not agree with it or me but hey that's what makes the world go round.....!

Regards

PDUK

reply to post by PurpleDog UK


Thank you for taking the time to write a response to me, half the time when I post the thread dies pretty quickly and no-one comments on what I say, or I just get ignored, bah humbug.

I do not think £30 per week actually acts as an incentive to learn, from what I understand it is paid for attendance NOT results

I don't know if the system has changed since four / five years ago when I was receiving support for being in college, but I remember if you did not attend and / or your grades weren't up to scratch you got zilch. The same with the bonuses you received every start of term, if you weren't performing you didn't get it. We used to sit down with the head tutors of each course, present the work we'd done, tell them our plans and they used to decide whether we'd done enough to be granted the 30 pounds. This 30 pounds was vital for any Art course. The cost of materials, printing, and the sheer workload meant if you did not get this bonus, your work would suffer, there were only so many freebies our college would let you have.

I'd like to think that the new generations of kids in college DO WANT to learn, and although I really wish this was the case, after visiting my old school (which doubles as 14 - 16 for GCSE to 16 - 18 / 19 for higher education) I'm completely disillusioned. When I was at school there were no major trends. We didn't have a clear divide among attitudes, even the people you would class as low life’s scrapped enough GCSE's to get into other colleges in the area. And I also completely agree that the amount of people already on the streets after quitting education is disgraceful enough. But think about it, fast forward time and imagine when only a limited number of people could stay on in education past the age of 16. This means MORE people out on the streets, MORE people not willing or needed to go to college or university because the Government is happy enough to pay them out through dole money, money that we as tax paying citizens of this country are being forced to pay. We're already short of jobs; qualified people are finding it difficult to get decent jobs.

It's a two way street, currently some students don't want to learn, turn up at college to get their bonuses, do a bit of work half assed then go home, but even then, they're still being supported to do joinery courses, or plumbing, agriculture, damn even hairdressing and beauty. There are vocations and courses out there but they require money, much like everything in this world, money to do the course, money for exams, money for a piece of paper letting people know you are qualified.

The really crappy thing is, no matter what funding you get for staying on at college or going to university, there will always be those few people who take it for granted, thankfully at my college if you didn't put the effort in they kicked your backside out the door, my teachers had no time for people who only showed up to get the money.

When is the Household Cavalry going to draw sabers and charge? Slice the whole lot of savages to pieces.

They don't give a # about student tuition, they just want to burn buildings, smash windows, and attack the cops. In fact, I bet most of the "student protesters" are really professional anarchist agitators who come out for every riot and disturbance.

reply to post by stefplz


stefplz

I, being a little older and having taken my O-levels back in '84 and A-levels in '86 haven't really got much understanding of the current system and it was good of you to explain your experiences to me.
I base alot of my thoughts from a mix of information but regarding EMA's the extent of my knowledge only really extended from the broadcasts I have heard over the past few days...... The impression given too me is one of a system of incentives for children (?) to attend education and improve themselves...... something I find hard to understand that people would NOT want to do voluntarily ?

Back in the days of my education (along time ago) going to sixth form which is i guess the equivalent to todays world mean't you turned up and Had to Learn otherwise you'd fail and the world ended. I suppose in those days things were more simple and straight forward and perhaps technology and other distractions were not so prevalent.

I do worry a little about where this leads because I strongly feel that there is a generation out there who do not know what it is like to ''go without''.. I don't mean the basics, although today that is probably more true than in the 80's BUT i think alot of the younger generations expect access to communications, own transport and all entertainments as 'a given' and not something which in the past had to be earn't...

Cheers
PDUK

reply to post by ChrisF231


ChrisF231

I would tend to agree with your comment about NOT being students.......check pictures in the link..

www.bbc.co.uk...

They are just probably politicised troublemakers trying to ruin everyone elses day..

regards

PDUK

reply to post by PurpleDog UK

You and I 'agree' (?) on... the idea's being proposed by the current Government.

You disapprove of my reasons for not wanting to pay MORE tax to fund University student education.

Well summed up. See, it isn't that hard if you put your mind to it.

May I suggest you read "dagar's post on page 4 and then you might understand my frustration with paying more tax as I share Dagar's views on that, as I think most sensible and intelligent individuals do !!

I read it. He doesn't like how the exchequer spent some of the taxes he didn't like paying. Understandable and not surprising. But the targets of his resentment are the financiers and the governments that bailed them out: he isn't complaining about lazy students 'having a jolly' at university on his taxes.

It's clear to me you don't understand why I think your objections are disgraceful, wrong and founded on ignorance; it may help if you try to understand why I think his aren't. Even though I don't necessarily agree with him.

I also find your personal little insults really quite 'pathetic' and it leads me to believe that I must lend you a torch / flashlight because you are so far up your own 'derriere' that you probably need some light to find your way out.

I challenge you to find and quote here even one personal insult in anything I have posted. So far, the personal insults (such as the one quoted above) have emanated solely from you.

Incidentally, the French word you used in it is the wrong one.