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What is a Christian?
page: 1share:
As per my response to this thread, I'd like to see if anyone can address the question of
what a Christian truly is.
Is it possible to give a simple definition, or will you have to explore the following questions (taken from the aforementioned thread)
Is it possible to give a simple definition, or will you have to explore the following questions (taken from the aforementioned thread)
Does a real Christian see Jesus as merely a human, as a divine human, as a human that is both 100% human and 100% Yahweh, as a being that is 50% human and 50% Yahweh (or some other proportion, as I'm not going to bother writing out all possible proportions because that would be both silly and painful), or some other version I haven't bothered to mention?
Are real Christians trinitarian or unitarian?
Do real Christians observe Judaic law?
Do real Christians subscribe to the Pope as the successor of Peter and thus extend Petrine privilege to him?
Do real Christians give Mary, the mother of Jesus, special privilege?
(Topical for today): Do real Christians think Mary was born without original sin?
Do real Christians think Mary maintained her virginity throughout life? Was this because of a divine "instant regeneration of virginity" spell Yahweh placed upon her or was it simply because she abstained throughout life?
Do real Christians have Saints?
Are real Christians saved through "faith" or "works" or some combination of the two?
Do real Christians have to be "born again"?
If yes, what would being "born again" entail?
What place does baptism have in the life of real Christians?
Do real Christians interpret the Bible literally? Figuratively? Do they have a specific criteria for which parts are literal and which are not?
Which version of the Biblical canon do they accept?
Do they give equal credence to the Old Testament?
Are real Christians creationists?
If yes, are they old Earth or young Earth creationists?
If old Earth, is it a perpetual Earth that existed from the moment of creation or is it an Earth that was formed by Yahweh or natural processes later on in the existence of the universe?
If young Earth, exactly how young is the Earth for real Christians?
Which version of the 10 commandments do real Christians accept?
Which version of the death of Jesus do real Christians accept?
Do real Christians see one Gospel as more important than the others?
If so, which Gospel do real Christians hold up above the others?
What position do real Christians take on icons?
What opinion of women do real Christians have?
Do real Christians allow women to teach?
What is a real Christian's opinion of homosexuals?
What is a real Christian's opinion of Jewish individuals?
And can you please provide arguments and evidence (be it Biblical or otherwise) to support your position?
A miserable little pile of secrets, but enough talk.
Have at you.
Have at you.
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
I doubt you'll take the time to listen to all of these, but others entering this thread may do so:
Mars Hill ~ "Doctrine from True Teachers"
Mars Hill ~ "Doctrine from False Teachers" Part 1
Mars Hill ~ "Doctrine From False Teachers" Part 2
I doubt you'll take the time to listen to all of these, but others entering this thread may do so:
Mars Hill ~ "Doctrine from True Teachers"
Mars Hill ~ "Doctrine from False Teachers" Part 1
Mars Hill ~ "Doctrine From False Teachers" Part 2
reply to post by NOTurTypical
I guess I could listen to them, or you could use the knowledge you've gained from them to actually give me at least a very simple, very basic answer to my question(s) instead of just dismissing me.
And the first video is over an hour long...that's convenient to respond to. The other two are also around an hour long.
I'll try watching them when I have time (I currently don't have three hours I can't devote to studying, I'm already allocating too much time to ATS as it is), so would you at least try to summarize the points or possibly answer my quite valid questions?
I guess I could listen to them, or you could use the knowledge you've gained from them to actually give me at least a very simple, very basic answer to my question(s) instead of just dismissing me.
And the first video is over an hour long...that's convenient to respond to. The other two are also around an hour long.
I'll try watching them when I have time (I currently don't have three hours I can't devote to studying, I'm already allocating too much time to ATS as it is), so would you at least try to summarize the points or possibly answer my quite valid questions?
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
Very few real Christians. I'd say less than one in a thousand believers in England are realist Christians. Most are Idealist religious types. There is a difference between Religion and the Bible. Religion is man made whereas the Bible isn't. Atheism lumps both religion and the bible into the same catagory and that's a fatal mistake because the Bible is provable to any truth seeker using maths. I'd say that Religion is fake and the Bible is true. The truth really isn't that difficult to discern, you don't need to be a qualified Architect to discern the truth about building 7, likewise you don't need to be a Bible Scholar to discern the truth about Dan. 9:25 - you just need an interest in finding out the truth.
Most of your points, like for example saved by faith or saved by works, are doctrinal issues which are easily provable one way or another to anyone with a genuine interest in finding out the truth. Jehovah's Witnesses push the false doctrine of saved by works, while saved by faith is the whole point of Jesus dying on the cross, and rising up 3 days later.
Very few real Christians. I'd say less than one in a thousand believers in England are realist Christians. Most are Idealist religious types. There is a difference between Religion and the Bible. Religion is man made whereas the Bible isn't. Atheism lumps both religion and the bible into the same catagory and that's a fatal mistake because the Bible is provable to any truth seeker using maths. I'd say that Religion is fake and the Bible is true. The truth really isn't that difficult to discern, you don't need to be a qualified Architect to discern the truth about building 7, likewise you don't need to be a Bible Scholar to discern the truth about Dan. 9:25 - you just need an interest in finding out the truth.
Most of your points, like for example saved by faith or saved by works, are doctrinal issues which are easily provable one way or another to anyone with a genuine interest in finding out the truth. Jehovah's Witnesses push the false doctrine of saved by works, while saved by faith is the whole point of Jesus dying on the cross, and rising up 3 days later.
Hello Madness,
Hope that you are well,
Does a real Christian see Jesus as merely a human, as a divine human, as a human that is both 100% human and 100% Yahweh,
As a divine human,That is,that God came to earth as a human being,He did this so that he could understand
what it was to be human,to empathize with us.
Are real Christians trinitarian or unitarian?
I had to look these words up,hehe,Christianity generally holds that there is a trinity even tho the word is not mentioned in the Bible,There are numerous scriptures and stories that expound on there being three of them,
Jesus prayed to the Father and told his disciples that when he left the earth that the Father would send another,a comforter and councilor,that is the Holy Spirit,So there is context that shows them to be separate entities
yet of one and the same.
Do real Christians observe Judaic law?
No,Thats for the Jewish people,They have some good precepts tho...
As a Christian i no longer live under or am i judged according to the standard of the Law,Yes they are
still relevant but i am not under the weight of them,I will be judged on my obedience to what God tells
me,God is graceful to me when i fail,he picks me up and dusts me of and tells me to keep walking.
Do real Christians subscribe to the Pope as the successor of Peter and thus extend Petrine privilege to him?
No,The pope is a man(that looks like Emperor Palpatine...),
The concept of Peter being anything more than a man is a man made concept as well,He is not esteemed in the Bible and more than anyone else and was given no position of power save that of being a disciple and friend of Jesus.
Do real Christians give Mary, the mother of Jesus, special privilege?[/]
No,She was a normal girl,Chosen by God to do something,as were many others,to ascribe to her
something more than that is idolatry.
(Topical for today): Do real Christians think Mary was born without original sin?
No,she was subject to the same as everyone else,God must have thought her capable to do as he asked
tho,look after a baby and be obedient so she had something going for her.
Do real Christians think Mary maintained her virginity throughout life? Was this because of a divine "instant regeneration of virginity" spell Yahweh placed upon her or was it simply because she abstained throughout life?
No,Jesus had brother[s],and she was married so she did the deed at some point,prolly
more than once too...
Do real Christians have Saints?
No,It is idolatry to put it bluntly,Who is a man?,There are no saints (in the sense that we know them) in the
bible,That is a man made concept,one that is born from men needing to esteem themselves in their own eyes.
Are real Christians saved through "faith" or "works" or some combination of the two?
A tricky one,needing more words than i can type in a short time but through "Faith",that is trust
that what Jesus did was the payment for my sin,I can't buy my way into Heaven,to think that i can
is an affront to God and i shall surely pay a high price for that if that is my heart.
The "works"part is pertaining to"If i believe what i do then what i do will show what i believe"
Do real Christians have to be "born again"?
Yes,Jesus said"Unless a man is born again he shall not see the Kingdom of God",in this life or the next.
If yes, what would being "born again" entail?
There is a bit to this but i will try make it short,
Man was originally born being connected to God constantly,it sustained him physically and spiritually,
Disobedience and rebellion severed that tie,to be Born again is to be reconnected to God,when we repent(turn away) from the heart attitude of rebellion and ask forgiveness then God reconnects himself to our spirit.
Sorry Madness but i have to go to work now,i will put some more here later and check to see if
you want some elaboration on anything,I suck at typing so it takes me a while to get it all out but i will try.
Regards
Violet
Hope that you are well,
Does a real Christian see Jesus as merely a human, as a divine human, as a human that is both 100% human and 100% Yahweh,
As a divine human,That is,that God came to earth as a human being,He did this so that he could understand
what it was to be human,to empathize with us.
Are real Christians trinitarian or unitarian?
I had to look these words up,hehe,Christianity generally holds that there is a trinity even tho the word is not mentioned in the Bible,There are numerous scriptures and stories that expound on there being three of them,
Jesus prayed to the Father and told his disciples that when he left the earth that the Father would send another,a comforter and councilor,that is the Holy Spirit,So there is context that shows them to be separate entities
yet of one and the same.
Do real Christians observe Judaic law?
No,Thats for the Jewish people,They have some good precepts tho...
As a Christian i no longer live under or am i judged according to the standard of the Law,Yes they are
still relevant but i am not under the weight of them,I will be judged on my obedience to what God tells
me,God is graceful to me when i fail,he picks me up and dusts me of and tells me to keep walking.
Do real Christians subscribe to the Pope as the successor of Peter and thus extend Petrine privilege to him?
No,The pope is a man(that looks like Emperor Palpatine...),
The concept of Peter being anything more than a man is a man made concept as well,He is not esteemed in the Bible and more than anyone else and was given no position of power save that of being a disciple and friend of Jesus.
Do real Christians give Mary, the mother of Jesus, special privilege?[/]
No,She was a normal girl,Chosen by God to do something,as were many others,to ascribe to her
something more than that is idolatry.
(Topical for today): Do real Christians think Mary was born without original sin?
No,she was subject to the same as everyone else,God must have thought her capable to do as he asked
tho,look after a baby and be obedient so she had something going for her.
Do real Christians think Mary maintained her virginity throughout life? Was this because of a divine "instant regeneration of virginity" spell Yahweh placed upon her or was it simply because she abstained throughout life?
No,Jesus had brother[s],and she was married so she did the deed at some point,prolly
more than once too...
Do real Christians have Saints?
No,It is idolatry to put it bluntly,Who is a man?,There are no saints (in the sense that we know them) in the
bible,That is a man made concept,one that is born from men needing to esteem themselves in their own eyes.
Are real Christians saved through "faith" or "works" or some combination of the two?
A tricky one,needing more words than i can type in a short time but through "Faith",that is trust
that what Jesus did was the payment for my sin,I can't buy my way into Heaven,to think that i can
is an affront to God and i shall surely pay a high price for that if that is my heart.
The "works"part is pertaining to"If i believe what i do then what i do will show what i believe"
Do real Christians have to be "born again"?
Yes,Jesus said"Unless a man is born again he shall not see the Kingdom of God",in this life or the next.
If yes, what would being "born again" entail?
There is a bit to this but i will try make it short,
Man was originally born being connected to God constantly,it sustained him physically and spiritually,
Disobedience and rebellion severed that tie,to be Born again is to be reconnected to God,when we repent(turn away) from the heart attitude of rebellion and ask forgiveness then God reconnects himself to our spirit.
Sorry Madness but i have to go to work now,i will put some more here later and check to see if
you want some elaboration on anything,I suck at typing so it takes me a while to get it all out but i will try.
Regards
Violet
edit on 8-12-2010 by BlackViolet because: Cause it looked like a dogs breakfast,still does...
edit on 8-12-2010 by
BlackViolet because: Again...
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
No thanks, i see others have taken the time to do so. I have enough experience with you and your threads to know you're not genuinely looking for answers, but for an avenue to condemn beliefs.
If you wish to listen to them great, if not they are a matter of public record for others to view if they're interested.
No thanks, i see others have taken the time to do so. I have enough experience with you and your threads to know you're not genuinely looking for answers, but for an avenue to condemn beliefs.
If you wish to listen to them great, if not they are a matter of public record for others to view if they're interested.
Maddness you can get many different answers to the questions you ask...which you already know. A Christian is a follower of Christ. A follower of
Christ may follow different denominations and practice different belief sets based on their doctrine.
As for me...I try to follow Christ as written in the bible...I'm only worried about loving my neighbor as myself and loving God. That pretty much covers everything.
My faith is in Jesus as he alone offers me salvation.
Your attempt here is to separate the faithful and cause confusion when there is no confusion. Simply follow Christ, accept him as your savior, turn from sin and repent for sins committed. That's it...that's all...no confusion....
As for me...I try to follow Christ as written in the bible...I'm only worried about loving my neighbor as myself and loving God. That pretty much covers everything.
My faith is in Jesus as he alone offers me salvation.
Your attempt here is to separate the faithful and cause confusion when there is no confusion. Simply follow Christ, accept him as your savior, turn from sin and repent for sins committed. That's it...that's all...no confusion....
What is a real Christian?
Ask that short list of questions in the OP to 100 Christians and you will get 100 different answer combinations. Not 2 single people will agree perfectly on every single answer. This will stand true with 100 people of the same church.
What is a real Christian? What can we conclude? Relativity. The concept of a real Christian is relative to the individual you are asking. Since no 2 Christians can 100% agree on 100% of the understandings and beliefs, then Christian Faith and Belief are relative.
Now the tricky part... can we get all religious people to understand that all faith and belief is relative? What ever makes you happy, gives you Peace, gives you comfort and strength, and makes you a better person is what is real. It's real to you, just as any other understandings are real to the next person. Follow religion to improve the quality of your life, not to look down, condemn, or fight others over disagreement.
All faith is relative. To you be your Path, and to me be mine.
Ask that short list of questions in the OP to 100 Christians and you will get 100 different answer combinations. Not 2 single people will agree perfectly on every single answer. This will stand true with 100 people of the same church.
What is a real Christian? What can we conclude? Relativity. The concept of a real Christian is relative to the individual you are asking. Since no 2 Christians can 100% agree on 100% of the understandings and beliefs, then Christian Faith and Belief are relative.
Now the tricky part... can we get all religious people to understand that all faith and belief is relative? What ever makes you happy, gives you Peace, gives you comfort and strength, and makes you a better person is what is real. It's real to you, just as any other understandings are real to the next person. Follow religion to improve the quality of your life, not to look down, condemn, or fight others over disagreement.
All faith is relative. To you be your Path, and to me be mine.
To me a real Christian is someone that follows the teachings of Christ (including loving that Satanist gay boy that lives next door.) I consider
myself a Christian for this reason even though my belief system in not exclusive to Christianity and I don't follow "the script" that organized
religion lays out.
Many people think they are or call themselves Chrisitans because that is how they were brought up or because they pay lip service and attend church every Sunday and yet still hate "Fags" and "Muslims" etc and are against more than they are for. That is what passes for Christian in our society, not what makes a real Christian.
Many people think they are or call themselves Chrisitans because that is how they were brought up or because they pay lip service and attend church every Sunday and yet still hate "Fags" and "Muslims" etc and are against more than they are for. That is what passes for Christian in our society, not what makes a real Christian.
reply to post by DanUKphd
Um...ok, can you define Christian?
I'm sorry, but last time I checked the Bible was written by people, even according to itself.
No, atheism merely states: "I do not have a belief in any gods"
It doesn't really say much else.
Um...can you prove that to me then? Last time I checked the Bible gets some pretty basic mathematics and science wrong, but I may be mistaken.
Ok, which parts of the Bible?
Yes, you just need a basic level of reason....I mean, if you're talking about WTC 7, the conspiracy theories around which are all based on some basic misunderstandings of physics...I don't bother posting this in the 9/11 forum because it's useless arguing with some people sometimes.
Also, that's not the topic of this thread...
Um...what does that have to do with being a Christian?
Ok, prove the proper position. I did ask for that, didn't I?
...ooook... please prove this.
Originally posted by DanUKphd
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
Very few real Christians. I'd say less than one in a thousand believers in England are realist Christians.
Um...ok, can you define Christian?
Most are Idealist religious types. There is a difference between Religion and the Bible. Religion is man made whereas the Bible isn't.
I'm sorry, but last time I checked the Bible was written by people, even according to itself.
Atheism lumps both religion and the bible into the same catagory
No, atheism merely states: "I do not have a belief in any gods"
It doesn't really say much else.
and that's a fatal mistake because the Bible is provable to any truth seeker using maths.
Um...can you prove that to me then? Last time I checked the Bible gets some pretty basic mathematics and science wrong, but I may be mistaken.
I'd say that Religion is fake and the Bible is true.
Ok, which parts of the Bible?
The truth really isn't that difficult to discern, you don't need to be a qualified Architect to discern the truth about building 7,
Yes, you just need a basic level of reason....I mean, if you're talking about WTC 7, the conspiracy theories around which are all based on some basic misunderstandings of physics...I don't bother posting this in the 9/11 forum because it's useless arguing with some people sometimes.
Also, that's not the topic of this thread...
likewise you don't need to be a Bible Scholar to discern the truth about Dan. 9:25 - you just need an interest in finding out the truth.
Um...what does that have to do with being a Christian?
Most of your points, like for example saved by faith or saved by works, are doctrinal issues which are easily provable one way or another to anyone with a genuine interest in finding out the truth.
Ok, prove the proper position. I did ask for that, didn't I?
Jehovah's Witnesses push the false doctrine of saved by works, while saved by faith is the whole point of Jesus dying on the cross, and rising up 3 days later.
...ooook... please prove this.
reply to post by NOTurTypical
Judge not lest ye be judged.
I'm actually looking for answers for the most part. I do condemn certain beliefs outright based upon the current evidence I have at hand, but if someone provides more sufficient evidence to show that I'm wrong I'll be more than happy to change my mind.
Yes, and if you look at my record I'm all about evidence and arguments being way more important to me than where I'm starting out.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
No thanks, i see others have taken the time to do so. I have enough experience with you and your threads to know you're not genuinely looking for answers, but for an avenue to condemn beliefs.
Judge not lest ye be judged.
I'm actually looking for answers for the most part. I do condemn certain beliefs outright based upon the current evidence I have at hand, but if someone provides more sufficient evidence to show that I'm wrong I'll be more than happy to change my mind.
If you wish to listen to them great, if not they are a matter of public record for others to view if they're interested.
Yes, and if you look at my record I'm all about evidence and arguments being way more important to me than where I'm starting out.
reply to post by kinglizard
Of course I know, I was trying to prove a point.
And may call others who follow those different doctrines heretics.
Um...he's not exactly consistently depicted in the Bible. I mean, you've read it, right?
Well, read those Gospels again, he's interested in a tiny bit more than that.
Ok, but can I have some elaboration as to why this is so?
Again, judge not lest ye be judged. My attempt here was actually to show that Christians are varied in belief and that they should all just get along. In doing so I was hoping to make sure that we all just get along in general.
Also, there is plenty of confusion and it's been that way for...oh....2000ish years?
In what way?
Why?
Please, give me a solid criteria for 'sin'.
Clearly there is. And the confusion arises because you're saying all of those statements from a doctrinal position where they have clear, defined meanings. I'm not within that mindset so those statements are very confusing.
Originally posted by kinglizard
Maddness you can get many different answers to the questions you ask...which you already know.
Of course I know, I was trying to prove a point.
A Christian is a follower of Christ. A follower of Christ may follow different denominations and practice different belief sets based on their doctrine.
And may call others who follow those different doctrines heretics.
As for me...I try to follow Christ as written in the bible...
Um...he's not exactly consistently depicted in the Bible. I mean, you've read it, right?
I'm only worried about loving my neighbor as myself and loving God. That pretty much covers everything.
Well, read those Gospels again, he's interested in a tiny bit more than that.
My faith is in Jesus as he alone offers me salvation.
Ok, but can I have some elaboration as to why this is so?
Your attempt here is to separate the faithful and cause confusion when there is no confusion.
Again, judge not lest ye be judged. My attempt here was actually to show that Christians are varied in belief and that they should all just get along. In doing so I was hoping to make sure that we all just get along in general.
Also, there is plenty of confusion and it's been that way for...oh....2000ish years?
Simply follow Christ,
In what way?
accept him as your savior,
Why?
turn from sin and repent for sins committed.
Please, give me a solid criteria for 'sin'.
That's it...that's all...no confusion....
Clearly there is. And the confusion arises because you're saying all of those statements from a doctrinal position where they have clear, defined meanings. I'm not within that mindset so those statements are very confusing.
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
Straw man. A statement taken out of context is actually a pretext. Jesus condemns judging people's eternal destination, not their actions on Earth. Here is what he has to say on the matter of actions:
Matthew 7:16 ~ "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
Judge not lest ye be judged.
Straw man. A statement taken out of context is actually a pretext. Jesus condemns judging people's eternal destination, not their actions on Earth. Here is what he has to say on the matter of actions:
Matthew 7:16 ~ "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
reply to post by BlackViolet
Yay, you actually tried to answer my questions. I'm giving you a star for effort before I even read the reply.
All right, that clears it up a little bit. What is your basis for making this claim?
It's ok, I only really picked up the terms because I had to learn them as part of my religious education when I was religious.
But there is a word that I should point out, generally. It's not consistent, so where is the point on which the non-trinitarians are wrong?
I might have missed something, but where did you show that they are one in the same?
Again, I ask this as politely as possible, where is your justification for that claim?
Yes, but why?
Well, last time I checked he wasn't a woman...well, I can't be 100% sure of that.
What about Matthew 16:18 where Jesus calls Peter the "Rock" upon which he will build his Church? Wasn't he known as Simon prior to this and became Peter because of this passage?
Again, why? I'd like justification for these claims.
Again, why? I'd like justification for these claims.
Again, justification.
Can I please have a bit more elaboration?
But what about those who do immeasurable good but have absolutely no faith?
But he also said the following:
Seems a bit of a contradiction to me.
You provided quite a good short version, now may I please see the longer version with citation?
Thank you, I appreciate the effort you put in. I hope I didn't sound too nasty in my response, I was trying to go for curious, but I suck at writing tone.
Yay, you actually tried to answer my questions. I'm giving you a star for effort before I even read the reply.
Originally posted by BlackViolet
Hello Madness,
Hope that you are well,
Does a real Christian see Jesus as merely a human, as a divine human, as a human that is both 100% human and 100% Yahweh,
As a divine human,That is,that God came to earth as a human being,He did this so that he could understand
what it was to be human,to empathize with us.
All right, that clears it up a little bit. What is your basis for making this claim?
Are real Christians trinitarian or unitarian?
I had to look these words up,hehe,Christianity generally holds that there is a trinity even tho the word is not mentioned in the Bible,
It's ok, I only really picked up the terms because I had to learn them as part of my religious education when I was religious.
But there is a word that I should point out, generally. It's not consistent, so where is the point on which the non-trinitarians are wrong?
There are numerous scriptures and stories that expound on there being three of them,
Jesus prayed to the Father and told his disciples that when he left the earth that the Father would send another,a comforter and councilor,that is the Holy Spirit,So there is context that shows them to be separate entities
yet of one and the same.
I might have missed something, but where did you show that they are one in the same?
Do real Christians observe Judaic law?
No,Thats for the Jewish people,They have some good precepts tho...
Again, I ask this as politely as possible, where is your justification for that claim?
As a Christian i no longer live under or am i judged according to the standard of the Law,Yes they are
still relevant but i am not under the weight of them,I will be judged on my obedience to what God tells
me,God is graceful to me when i fail,he picks me up and dusts me of and tells me to keep walking.
Yes, but why?
Do real Christians subscribe to the Pope as the successor of Peter and thus extend Petrine privilege to him?
No,The pope is a man(that looks like Emperor Palpatine...),
Well, last time I checked he wasn't a woman...well, I can't be 100% sure of that.
The concept of Peter being anything more than a man is a man made concept as well,He is not esteemed in the Bible and more than anyone else and was given no position of power save that of being a disciple and friend of Jesus.
What about Matthew 16:18 where Jesus calls Peter the "Rock" upon which he will build his Church? Wasn't he known as Simon prior to this and became Peter because of this passage?
Do real Christians give Mary, the mother of Jesus, special privilege?[/]
No,She was a normal girl,Chosen by God to do something,as were many others,to ascribe to her
something more than that is idolatry.
Again, why? I'd like justification for these claims.
(Topical for today): Do real Christians think Mary was born without original sin?
No,she was subject to the same as everyone else,God must have thought her capable to do as he asked
tho,look after a baby and be obedient so she had something going for her.
Again, why? I'd like justification for these claims.
Do real Christians think Mary maintained her virginity throughout life? Was this because of a divine "instant regeneration of virginity" spell Yahweh placed upon her or was it simply because she abstained throughout life?
No,Jesus had brother[s],and she was married so she did the deed at some point,prolly
more than once too...
Again, justification.
Do real Christians have Saints?
No,It is idolatry to put it bluntly,Who is a man?,There are no saints (in the sense that we know them) in the
bible,That is a man made concept,one that is born from men needing to esteem themselves in their own eyes.
Can I please have a bit more elaboration?
Are real Christians saved through "faith" or "works" or some combination of the two?
A tricky one,needing more words than i can type in a short time but through "Faith",that is trust
that what Jesus did was the payment for my sin,I can't buy my way into Heaven,to think that i can
is an affront to God and i shall surely pay a high price for that if that is my heart.
The "works"part is pertaining to"If i believe what i do then what i do will show what i believe"
But what about those who do immeasurable good but have absolutely no faith?
Do real Christians have to be "born again"?
Yes,Jesus said"Unless a man is born again he shall not see the Kingdom of God",in this life or the next.
But he also said the following:
Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Seems a bit of a contradiction to me.
If yes, what would being "born again" entail?
There is a bit to this but i will try make it short,
Man was originally born being connected to God constantly,it sustained him physically and spiritually,
Disobedience and rebellion severed that tie,to be Born again is to be reconnected to God,when we repent(turn away) from the heart attitude of rebellion and ask forgiveness then God reconnects himself to our spirit.
You provided quite a good short version, now may I please see the longer version with citation?
Sorry Madness but i have to go to work now,i will put some more here later and check to see if
you want some elaboration on anything,I suck at typing so it takes me a while to get it all out but i will try.
Thank you, I appreciate the effort you put in. I hope I didn't sound too nasty in my response, I was trying to go for curious, but I suck at writing tone.
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
You aren't looking for answers on ways to trap and ridicule people. If you were looking for answers you would have responded to the earlier thread when you asked the same questions.
You are trying to use the same tactics as Djin, which I have addressed in plenty of his anti-Christian threads.
Maddness, I have known and argued against you long enough to understand that you aren't looking for answers.
You aren't looking for answers on ways to trap and ridicule people. If you were looking for answers you would have responded to the earlier thread when you asked the same questions.
You are trying to use the same tactics as Djin, which I have addressed in plenty of his anti-Christian threads.
Maddness, I have known and argued against you long enough to understand that you aren't looking for answers.
reply to post by Equinox99
Yay, another person that simply states that I'm not looking for answers...so they must be right because they asserted it!
Look at my thread history and you'll see that I'm looking for answers. Hell, I'm downright friendly with plenty of Christians on here that I used to disagree with.
Adjensen and I had some pretty big disagreements in prior threads, but we've come to respect and understand each other more. Why? Because I'm looking for answers.
I'd say that I'm possibly looking for answers more than you, or most other Jesus people on this website, are. Why? Because I don't claim to know everything about everyone else's view. I don't call anyone a heretic, I don't claim to know the mind of others.
That's why I ask questions. That's why I try to promote discourse and understanding.
As for the other thread, I thought that the discussion might move away from such questions and the attempt to define what a Christian is into a thread of flaming, so I decided to open up a thread devoted solely to that.
Yay, another person that simply states that I'm not looking for answers...so they must be right because they asserted it!
Look at my thread history and you'll see that I'm looking for answers. Hell, I'm downright friendly with plenty of Christians on here that I used to disagree with.
Adjensen and I had some pretty big disagreements in prior threads, but we've come to respect and understand each other more. Why? Because I'm looking for answers.
I'd say that I'm possibly looking for answers more than you, or most other Jesus people on this website, are. Why? Because I don't claim to know everything about everyone else's view. I don't call anyone a heretic, I don't claim to know the mind of others.
That's why I ask questions. That's why I try to promote discourse and understanding.
As for the other thread, I thought that the discussion might move away from such questions and the attempt to define what a Christian is into a thread of flaming, so I decided to open up a thread devoted solely to that.
edit on 8/12/10 by madnessinmysoul because: Added the last bit.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
Judge not lest ye be judged.
Straw man.
Jesus never said that? I'm debunking Jesus based upon that claim?
A statement taken out of context is actually a pretext. Jesus condemns judging people's eternal destination, not their actions on Earth.
Then you should have said "quote mine"
A straw man is when you create a false position and then destroy it easily. I didn't destroy the position, I agreed with it.
Of course I know the context, you were sort of judging the sum total of my actions on ATS so I was using it metaphorically.
Here is what he has to say on the matter of actions:
Matthew 7:16 ~ "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
And I'm trying to gather...understanding.
Of course, you don't care about understanding, as you seem to know exactly what I'm like already. Here I am trying to get a better understanding of the various schools of thought prevalent among Christians on ATS and you're denouncing me outright.
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
I simply said you're taking Jesus's quote out of context, and something out of context is actually a pretext.
I'm not merely dismissing you, I've just come to realize after numerous conversations with you that you're not on a "fact-finding" mission, but your modus operandi here a majority of the time is to attempt to use questions/threads as an avenue to attack.
If I feel that you're genuine, I'll gladly engage in a transfer of ideas. I don't see that here, sorry.
I simply said you're taking Jesus's quote out of context, and something out of context is actually a pretext.
I'm not merely dismissing you, I've just come to realize after numerous conversations with you that you're not on a "fact-finding" mission, but your modus operandi here a majority of the time is to attempt to use questions/threads as an avenue to attack.
If I feel that you're genuine, I'll gladly engage in a transfer of ideas. I don't see that here, sorry.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
I simply said you're taking Jesus's quote out of context, and something out of context is actually a pretext.
...I was using a quote metaphorically.
The 'pretext' if any was not to dismiss me.
I'm not merely dismissing you, I've just come to realize after numerous conversations with you that you're not on a "fact-finding" mission, but your modus operandi here a majority of the time is to attempt to use questions/threads as an avenue to attack.
Please show me where I've attacked instead of discussed.
The only place where I really do that is...well, with discussion of creationism. Though I'm open to the (incredibly improbable, "I'm counting on getting struck by lighting 7 times while winning a marathon after winning a dozen Oscars after curing cancer more" level of improbable) chance that creationism is true, I use questioning as a method to open discussion and show people why they're wrong when I'm certain they're wrong.
With religion I'm more about educating people on the views of others, including educating myself.
If I feel that you're genuine, I'll gladly engage in a transfer of ideas. I don't see that here, sorry.
That's why I don't take much stock in 'feeling'.
I like to assume that most people are genuine unless I have a good reason not to...at least one discussion forums.
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