Should "Creationism" be considered a sign of insanity?

Originally posted by immortal coil
No matter what way you try to finagle the hard sciences, you have to begin accounting for the fact that something ultimately came out of nothing.

Or perhaps, in the grander scope of things, there is no beginning nor end to anything. We were just thought up by a higher self at a particular point in time and began to exist.

This all coming from someone that is quite secular in regards to Christianity and modern religion as it stands.

edit on 6-12-2010 by immortal coil because: (no reason given)

Your theory on the dimensional membranes smacking against each other?
Even if in this dimension, there was once nothing, that doesn't mean all this didn't come from somewhere else.

Imagine the universe as we know it being a house. We can move stuff around from one place to another, but ultimately we cannot magic a new couch.
however, the question eventually comes up...where did the stuff in this house come from to begin with...must be God.

or simply a department store (aka, a different dimension that crossed this one)..thats the theory in a nutshell.

however, then of course you get into the, where did that stuff come from...and where did that stuff come from that came from that, etc etc...and that is where philosophy comes into play. Maybe, like the concept of God, all this energy infinately existed, maybe there is some sort of grand superman that wished everything into existance, etc...but thats simple fantasy games overall...ultimately, science is trying to understand this dimension exclusively first...once that is done, we can start speculating and testing the next domino

reply to post by truthiron


The great thing about having a background in science is being familiar with a thing call paradigm shift.... if incontroversible evidence is presented paradoxical to your existing paradigm, you create a new one! So if some sort of god knocks on my door tomorrow and says "Hi, this whole evolution thing? Yeah, that's kind of offensive. It was a lot of work putting the biota of this very special planet together, and it's not very nice of you to say we didn't,", I'll go "Sorry for that, and I hate to ask, but have you any proof?" to which they might smite me where I stood, or they might say, "Yep, look, here's a giraffe whose parents were octopuses, and here's the paternity test."

I'll look, recheck, and shift my paradigm. Hopefully they won't mind.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Maybe on individual subjective levels. We dont need an official ruling.

Certainly there is a level of ignorance and stupidity that follows this line of thinking. But who is anyone to tell people they can not believe what they wish? As long as it is not physically harmful (thats the key. Society mostly allows mental harm...because mental harm is subjective. Physical is not) to the believers, then its just a matter of ignoring the small few that wish to inflict theimselves with stupidity.

Let them belong to their religious orders or cults or whatever they wish to be called. Just stay away from me and mine.

reply to post by SaturnFX


If you can imagine sad violin music through these words it would set the atmosphere perfectly.....

Well what i say is, should Atheism be considered a sign of insanity? A lonley world full of meaningless chance, a family that you grow to love and then BAM! their gone, a cold damp box to look forward to...plus them pesky worms that will eventually eat ya!, every second of your existence is a monotonus self loathing grind, scared to make friends because let's face it, soon they are going to be gone, pay your tax? what for?, pay your bills? what for? Cowards! why? because you would never sacrifice yourself for anyone......youve got one life....one chance...fuc* them im not going to die, why be nice? why have a family? why have children? whats the point? needless to say i could go on and on............and on.............and on. But whats the use according to the world according to an Atheist im heading for oblivion, # i feel like a drink now!!!

reply to post by DrunkYogi


i can't really tell if this is sarcasm or not..

I hope it is..

Originally posted by DrunkYogi
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

If you can imagine sad violin music through these words it would set the atmosphere perfectly.....

Well what i say is, should Atheism be considered a sign of insanity? A lonley world full of meaningless chance, a family that you grow to love and then BAM! their gone, a cold damp box to look forward to...plus them pesky worms that will eventually eat ya!, every second of your existence is a monotonus self loathing grind, scared to make friends because let's face it, soon they are going to be gone, pay your tax? what for?, pay your bills? what for? Cowards! why? because you would never sacrifice yourself for anyone......youve got one life....one chance...fuc* them im not going to die, why be nice? why have a family? why have children? whats the point? needless to say i could go on and on............and on.............and on. But whats the use according to the world according to an Atheist im heading for oblivion, # i feel like a drink now!!!

Actually....everything you said applies only to yourself, and chances are by the sarcastic tone you have, you are a believer in a religion.
a sort of superiority complex because you believe you are somehow in a better mind than someone else. heh...funny stuff.

To answer your question: My life is generally happy, I enjoy the flavor and tastes daily of what this world offers, and I take the bad with a grain of salt, knowing tomorrow it may all change. (to believe in a blessing, you also need to believe in a curse...and since I am above that, I see tomorrow will likely be a product of what I personally make it verses some god blessing or smiting me.)

I see life as exceptionally valueable and so will always try to negotiate and use diplomacy before going into situations that may kill me or the other person..however, there are moments in life where one must fight, and so you fight like your trying to protect something...rabid, unyeilding, and without remorse.

I see family as important. parents are a library of knowledge. children are the legacy of our thoughts and story. Whenever somebody dies, a library burns. I am also personally a transhumanist and seek out life extension through scientific means. I believe there is a chance I may see this in my lifetime.

I am sorry if your life is lonely and meaningless without invisible friends. I feel for you. I hope you may one day find your own personal worth, but one thing that will certainly keep you back is judging others life compared to yourself...that is little more than projection of what you know to be true of yourself onto others.

oh, and forgot one thing: I do hope there is a blissful afterlife experience...that would be really great.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by immortal coil
No matter what way you try to finagle the hard sciences, you have to begin accounting for the fact that something ultimately came out of nothing.

Or perhaps, in the grander scope of things, there is no beginning nor end to anything. We were just thought up by a higher self at a particular point in time and began to exist.

This all coming from someone that is quite secular in regards to Christianity and modern religion as it stands.

edit on 6-12-2010 by immortal coil because: (no reason given)

Your theory on the dimensional membranes smacking against each other?
Even if in this dimension, there was once nothing, that doesn't mean all this didn't come from somewhere else.

Imagine the universe as we know it being a house. We can move stuff around from one place to another, but ultimately we cannot magic a new couch.
however, the question eventually comes up...where did the stuff in this house come from to begin with...must be God.

or simply a department store (aka, a different dimension that crossed this one)..thats the theory in a nutshell.

however, then of course you get into the, where did that stuff come from...and where did that stuff come from that came from that, etc etc...and that is where philosophy comes into play. Maybe, like the concept of God, all this energy infinately existed, maybe there is some sort of grand superman that wished everything into existance, etc...but thats simple fantasy games overall...ultimately, science is trying to understand this dimension exclusively first...once that is done, we can start speculating and testing the next domino

"The only thing that I know is that I know nothing" - Socrates

Is there ever any real "certainty" to that which we know. Moreover, in the pursuit of knowledge it's okay to admit that you don't have all the answers to everything as long as your journey is true to yourself.

However, we can't set ourselves up to fail in that pursuit either. There may come a time when science as it stands can't explain away everything. Although, I will make a bold predication - something which I rarely do, and that is that there will come a time in history where the sciences and religion/spirituality will join and become reliant upon each other.

With that being said, my very stance on creationism being taught in schools, is that if one viewpoint is being taught, so should the other. Why can't evolution ultimately be a machine of creationism? Also, given our (human's) fundamentally unique perception, what is considered real and not real. If two unique people with an equally unique belief system perceive something to be real or true, what's saying it's not real/true. They are living it, so in the very least, it must be true to them. That's really the kind of dynamic we are dealing with here.

reply to post by immortal coil

The truth ain't like a puppy, whole bunch of 'em running around, you pick your favourite. One truth, and it has come a-knockin'.

Enough said.

(Emerson Cod, Pushing Daisies).

reply to post by immortal coil

With that being said, my very stance on creationism being taught in schools, is that if one viewpoint is being taught, so should the other.

But there is only one viewpoint among biologists, not two.

Originally posted by immortal coil

Is there ever any real "certainty" to that which we know. Moreover, in the pursuit of knowledge it's okay to admit that you don't have all the answers to everything as long as your journey is true to yourself.

Actually, the persuit of knowledge starts with the understanding that you do not have all the answers...thats the point of the persuit.

my very stance on creationism being taught in schools, is that if one viewpoint is being taught, so should the other.

So...years upon years of study, data collection, evidence gathering, scientific peer reviewed papers, radiometric data, fossile collection, etc etc etc...a unprecidented amount of study by the brightest in many generations for 150 years should be equal to any random thought anyone comes up with.

Science is not a viewpoint...you can not debate away gravity, you cannot debate away the shape of the earth...it doesn't work that way.

there is no viewpoint here...it is fact..science is fact. it is not the full answer, but everything presented comes from proof.

religion is barely a hypothesis..and the first thing you must do is take away facts for it to even start standing as a valid hypothesis.

Originally posted by TheWill
reply to post by immortal coil

 

The truth ain't like a puppy, whole bunch of 'em running around, you pick your favourite. One truth, and it has come a-knockin'.

Enough said.

(Emerson Cod, Pushing Daisies).

edit on 6/12/2010 by TheWill because: quote fail

According to who, or whose truth? To understand what we're dealing with here, define truth. Or better yet, to emphasize the point, try to define "evil". Hard to do when you factor in different viewpoints.

Also, I think that I might be getting lumped in with the creationist viewpoint when that's clearly not the case although I do consider it when looking at the whole picture.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Sir Fred Hoyle, World-Renowned Astronomer, said that the probability of higher life forms emerging by chance are comparable to the odds that "a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein."

reply to post by SaturnFX


no, in a market they would be considered just another kind of seller.

if you have ever owned a tv, had an internet connection or have lived near more than 4 people then you would be insane to believe the bible to be true word for word. i understand that some people in secluded areas might think a little differently but one of them was a recent president of the usa, this i find very worrying

Originally posted by texastig
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Sir Fred Hoyle, World-Renowned Astronomer, said that the probability of higher life forms emerging by chance are comparable to the odds that "a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein."

So? he said a bunch of nonsense.

Hoyle (athiest) also did not accept the big bang theory because it required a starting point, and that would involve some sort of creation process or a creator...which he of course didn't believe in.

I have no clue why the arguments like that always assume that evolution means one day dirt, the next day fully grown animals...
The concept is daft and is actually exactly the argument atheists make -against- religion.

Keep in mind one final thing...Hoyle was born long ago...died 10 years ago as a elderly man, but most of his work was done long ago. as time goes on, we understand more about the universe. Hell, just a few days ago, we discovered there is approximately 300% more red dwarfs out there than previously thought.

Originally posted by lewman
if you have ever owned a tv, had an internet connection or have lived near more than 4 people then you would be insane to believe the bible to be true word for word. i understand that some people in secluded areas might think a little differently but one of them was a recent president of the usa, this i find very worrying

If you find that worrying..here is something to simply rob you from sleep.

Sarah Palin makes Bush look like a athiest with her views...and she seems to be the front runner for the right wing party...

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by immortal coil

Is there ever any real "certainty" to that which we know. Moreover, in the pursuit of knowledge it's okay to admit that you don't have all the answers to everything as long as your journey is true to yourself.

Actually, the persuit of knowledge starts with the understanding that you do not have all the answers...thats the point of the persuit.

my very stance on creationism being taught in schools, is that if one viewpoint is being taught, so should the other.

So...years upon years of study, data collection, evidence gathering, scientific peer reviewed papers, radiometric data, fossile collection, etc etc etc...a unprecidented amount of study by the brightest in many generations for 150 years should be equal to any random thought anyone comes up with.

Science is not a viewpoint...you can not debate away gravity, you cannot debate away the shape of the earth...it doesn't work that way.

there is no viewpoint here...it is fact..science is fact. it is not the full answer, but everything presented comes from proof.

religion is barely a hypothesis..and the first thing you must do is take away facts for it to even start standing as a valid hypothesis.

And yet there are many questions arising that keep evolution from becoming more than just a theory. It works both ways.

Also, something can be taught without ramming it down each others throats. Teach equal viewpoints, make it clear that we don't know with mathematical certainty if one viewpoint holds more water over the other, and go from there.

For the record, as I've stated before, I do believe parts of evolution as I do parts of creationism, but neither viewpoint seems to add up in its entirety to form a complete picture.

reply to post by SaturnFX


A Nobel Candidate speaking nonsense? I don't think so.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Like i believe all of that garbge you just said.............
One question......Are you afraid of death?

Should sanity be considered a sign of creationism?