Why do Americans hate Socialism/Communism?

Originally posted by Wally Hope

Originally posted by MGriff
Because capitalism and advancing one's lot in life is part of America. We don't have capitalism in America presently, we have corporatism.

Corporatism is just an inevitable result of capitalism. It is socialism for the capitalists. It is capitalism protected by government.

Communism and socialism have failed historically, and is not in conjunction with the liberties America was founded on.

Failed because it has never been given a chance. The capitalists have the power, always have. Read about the Spanish revolution. The fascists were supported by capitalist all over the world, including the US, in their attempt to stop the power the workers were gaining all over Europe.

If you're talking about the USSR they were never socialist or communist to start with.

dbzer0.com...

That was all just propaganda by the US after the end of WWII.

China is also NOT communist, only by name. You can't be both communist and capitalist. Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production, communism does away with capital. China is a capitalist dictatorship, the people have no power.

Socialism and communism are not dictatorships, both system put the power in the hands of the people, not governments. All governments are a form of dictatorship, just because we change the figurehead every 4, or so, years it doesn't mean our government is any different, or better. We still have the same system where the workers are exploited to make capitalists wealthy.

So you could say that socialism and communism if they were done correctly would be very democratic.

Why do I keep having to read that Sweden, Norway, UK, Germany are socialist countries? Where do they pound this nonsense into childrens brains? Where do you guys get this crap? Where dot hey teach this?

It doesnt get any more capitalistic than those countries. Thats why they are so well off.

reply to post by AdAbsurdum


One last thought...you mentioned earlier my responsibility to a social contract...yet, what are we, as Americans entitled to...Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness...Your other question I want to answer after some thought...and I'll paraphrase...why should I be miserable working when I can get paid to do what I want. After some thought, that is the problem with Socialism, or communism...it absolutely destrys motivation.

How would countries like Sweeden pay for thier social programs if they had to pay for thier own defense? The United States is thier defense policy.

reply to post by BigFrigginAl


I believe that badnickname has shown that it doesn't destroy motivation at all, on the contrary his nation leaped forward. (ETA: Please excuse this horrendous pun. It wasn't intentional, I swear.) I think that everyone wants to work it's just that we have no desire to do it for nothing.

As far as the social contract, what is there jury duty, taxes, stuff like that?

reply to post by Skyfloating


I believe that would be the MSM you have to think for that.

In America it is pretty much considered common knowledge that all of the EU and Canada and most of South America are either Socialist or full blown Communist scum.

Self Sufficient communities have always been the more preferred mode of living while providing the means of nourishing the youth of the community. If a nation is to establish itself with land boundaries for defensive purposes, defense of the nation, not 'offense' thereof, is the only 'federal' style department necessary to see this end.

States, or rather communities within the States, with an established precious metal backed currency as a medium of exchange is preferred and was the purpose of the original establishment of the US by it's European counterpart. States and the communities therein are much more efficient and effective at managing themselves. Any large entity that becomes too large, feeds on itself for it has become too large to manage. The "Keep it simple stupid" saying has it's merits and the means to make it work.....for U.

The ideas of owning land by deed or contract was foreign to native folks as was the language, the papel contracts/deeds, tax system.

When society breaks down, as per design, a foolish one and when the storms arrive and the cosmos becomes the issue of the day, a new beginning will begin to be begot though the rules always remain the same as the laws of nature itself. There are human natural laws of which are properly admistered with a system of jurisprudence found within a lawful assembly of one's peers for consideration for only the community can effectively know and therefor correct an individual and ascertain the correct punishment for that individual in that heresaid community. Successful communities will be successful on their own merit. The goal of each community is to support one another while being master of his/her own time to achieve that which they can achieve as per their design.

Unfortunately only 2% of the worlds population, on paper, own 95% of the world's resources.
If this sounds unreasonable, as it is, then it Is.
It is time for a 'change'.

It is time to dissolve the federal govt. all together as it is being used as a coop of the people's governance by it's very design. This should be obvious. no?

International organizations are a good idea for ideas and trade though a nightmare for administrating the 'world'.
The New World Order if it is to work at all must establish and respect an 'International Bill of Rights' of which protects the basic rights of man of which 'any' man with sound reason would ascribe to. Freedom is infectious, so therefor let it be what it already is. Who's holding back the dam of incontent? One could start with the IMF, The World Bank, Bank for International Settlements, The Federal Reserve, IRS, The UN, multinational sovereign corporations of which ascribe to their own UCC laws to be heard under a foreign admiralty law to serve 'foreign' interests.

Members of the Pentagon, the intelligence agencies, the Senate, the House of Reps.....anyone who chooses to disregard the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights bears extreme disrespect for those who sacrificed their very lives defending these ideals. They should be removed from govt., asap and tried, for treason/espionage or both and subsequently put to death/imprisonment or banished from the land to dwell in hiding for the rest of their meaningless lives. The punishment should fit the severity/impact of the crime, as expected. This is a 'start'.

End the fiat currency slavery.

This is not justice therefor it is to be replaced. If something is 'wrong' set it Right for a wrong not set right is as a dam with no integrity waiting to burst at it's seams. More dams to burst soon enough, stay away from the dams and look Up. It's more appropriate from here forth and much more interesting.

Originally posted by Mikemp44
Communism is the ideal form of governing and social structure, except for one fatal flaw that collapses the whole thing; balance.

You see the universal balance of things cannot allow one side to gain more ground than the other permanently. Even if we were able to achieve a perfect society, there would exist an equally imperfect society as well. Nature itself enforces this balance and it is part of the human condition. Whether it be greed, power, pride, you name it, people or incapable of being equal to each other. While I'm sure most of us BELIEVE with are equal to others, such as the way we interact and becuase of our moral/ethical bases, but trust me when I say you would never concede to being labelled as being the same as anyone else. I am not the same as you, though I may view you as my equal, we are not the same. That is why such a social structure cannot work. Capitalism also does not work because of its own fatal flaw; resources. Simply put, the human variable continues to rise, while the earths resources remain finite. Therefore Demand will always eventually outweigh supply, which will lead to those being able to obtain those precious resources and those who cannot. From this standpoint imperialism seems like the only truly efficient form of social structure, but is completely lacking any ethical/moral restriction. So really any way you slice the social $hit pie, it is still going to taste like $hit.

In short, we as a species suck at being social.

edit on 2-12-2010 by Mikemp44 because: I think I am developing dsylexia lol!

The fatal flaw of Socialism and Communism is not balance. It is from the downplay of one varialbe: human instincts, espeically the instincts of self-preservation.

Some people have more instincts than others. It is ultimately in genes but can be shaped via cultural conditioning. Those have more instincts will appear to have more drive, more motivation and more courage. Simply put, they are more beastly. And Americans are the most beastly in the world.

Socialism and Communism prefer collectivity over individualism. They will work only when each individual of a society/community is willing to sacrafice himself/herself for the collective existence. In short, they call for a very high level of rationality, given the selfishness of individuals. Carl Marx may be able to do that, but not everyone.

Despite the human instinct to survive, there are cultures in this world that favor collectivism over individualism. What you have said can only represent individualisitc cultures, the typical of which is the American culture. It may sound very natural to you that individual identity is the utmost goal of a human being, it is not valued to the same extent in cultures other than Anglo-Americans.

Socialism and communism is not about "labelling everyone as the same as anyone else" as you have put it. Its about preference. In socialism and communism, you are still an unique individual. The key is the preference of collective entity vs individual entity. When it is time to choose between "yourself" and "ourselves", which one do you go for? Are you willing to sacrafice yourself for the wellfare of the group, even if you would not be remembered for your sacrafice? Very few people is willing to do so. Even fewer is willing to do so in USA, which is famous for its selfishness. Moreover and sadly, USA thinks other people are as selfish as they are.

You said imperialism seems to be the most efficient form of social structure. Again, you are viewing reality from an Anglo-American points of view. And again, it is individualism prompts your thoughts. Please try to think out of the box and empathize the values of other peoples. You are basically saying "Everyone for himself!". In another word, social-darwinism.

Capitalism does not work not because of scarcity of resources. On the contrary, capitalism is based on scarcity of resources and individualism. Translate it into common sense: the limited resources should be allocated to the individual who are capable of grabbing them. And even more abstract: Winner takes all . Let me ask this question: If resources are limitness, why do you even consider the mechanism of supply and demand? All the western economics would be blown away.

The flaw of capitalism is in its downplay of human labor. Capitalism is founded on scarcity of resources and ownership (again individualism). Because I want to own things and own more things than others, I would downplay other humans' contribution to things and claim that value comes from capital and land as well.

Carl Marx tried to counter this neglegence of human labor. He thus theorized that the only source of value is human labor, basically denying the capitalists' dream of ownership. There is nothing for you to own because "things" are not the source of value.

The neo-classic economics, the most capitalistic of all schools of economics, is the economics of Anglo-Americans. It boasts competition and "free will". It's all about my "freedom" to rise above others. It doesn't really matter how much I have. It is about how much "more" I have compared to others. A millionaire? It is pointless if there is another individual who earns two million $.

In conclusion, Americans have a hard time to reconcile their culture with Socialism/Communism, because they prefer individual gain over the wellfare of a group.

Originally posted by AdAbsurdum
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

I believe that would be the MSM you have to think for that.

In America it is pretty much considered common knowledge that all of the EU and Canada and most of South America are either Socialist or full blown Communist scum.

Now how the hell do you get off making such a sweeping and BS generalization like that?
You've got all 310,000,000 of us all figured out. WOW. You must be a Goddamn Genius Gump.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Now how the hell do you get off making such a sweeping and BS generalization like that?
You've got all 310,000,000 of us all figured out. WOW. You must be a Goddamn Genius Gump.

Well, judging from what we've seen in this thread, across ATS, my conversations with random people on the street, what the MSM reports, polls that I've seen, social networking sites, and all the other conversations I've had that amount to this anecdotal evidence I base my judgment on, I'd say I'm about spot on.

Course, you could provide evidence to the contrary and we'd be closer to the truth. But, if it makes you feel better to just insult me you could always resort to that too, it's just not as constructive.

Oh, but since I have your attention, I would like you to know that I am looking forward to your reply to badnickname!

reply to post by Rob37n


Because we have been brainwashed to. Because those who are set to make money off of things like health care do not want to stop making money. Because it goes against capitalism.

reply to post by AdAbsurdum


It does take a master of deception for an msm to have fooled the folks in folkland for so very long.
The international bankster cabal and the msm have always worked hand in hand for the same foolish end.
It is only now being seen for what it Is and has been all along.
A mass control mechanism to deceive and manipulate the will and understanding of the masses.

The only reason I watch the cable news channels is to witness the games they're playing.
The rest is all glitter and glab and good show once in a while, lots of laughs though few tears for folks often reap what they sow.

Originally posted by AdAbsurdum
Well, judging from what we've seen in this thread, across ATS, my conversations with random people on the street, what the MSM reports, polls that I've seen, social networking sites, and all the other conversations I've had that amount to this anecdotal evidence I base my judgment on, I'd say I'm about spot on.

Spot on? You're just regurgitating ignorance about America. I noticed that in your rambling about the US you didn't mention actually ever being here and talking to Americans. MSM reports? Hell no wonder you have a twisted view. Polls? whose exactly? More MSMs? If you surround yourself with BS all you'll receive is BS. Crap in and Crap out.

Course, you could provide evidence to the contrary and we'd be closer to the truth. But, if it makes you feel better to just insult me you could always resort to that too, it's just not as constructive.

Why have I hurt your feelings while you slam an entire nation over a small percentage of the American populations ignorance. Look around I see and read a great many very intelligent and well thought threads and posts by Americans here at ATS. Simply because they don't all state their locations or national origin in their mini profiles. But please don't let that stop you from regurgitating your ignorance about what you think you know about 310,000,000 individuals and continue with your generalizations.

Oh, but since I have your attention I would like you to know that I am looking forward to your reply to badnickname!

I've replied and asked a few questions. He answered and gave his opinion.

So?

And?

Your point?

reply to post by Rob37n

Why do Americans have such a great hatred of Socialism and Communism?

Because it was tried here and failed - miserably. See Below.
It failed under Lenin, It failed under Stalin, It failed under Pol Pot. What is more it is used by the bankers to promote "Social Programs" that steal from the poor to fatten banker wallets. I explain that thought here.

Why does Socialism and Communism fail? Because as shown below it violates a very basic law: conservation of energy. This is a law stamped into the genes of every living thing. Disobey it for long and your species will die out.

What the heck am I talking about you ask? I am talking about FOOD. Food provides energy. You as a species need to expend as little energy as possible to get food. If the food gives less energy than is expended to get it - you die.

Humans, through the use of their brains, have managed to become so efficient at gaining food that we can ignore this law to some extent. Thus the development of civilization, the arts, science. However the law still applies. When it is easier to sit around watching TV or surfing the net and collecting welfare than it is to get a job, get up every day and do things your rather not, what are you going to choose?

If busting your butt and producing a 100 widgets an hour gains you a 25% increase in your rate of pay are you going to bust your butt so you can buy that snazzy sports car?


If busting your butt and producing a 100 widgets an hour gains you the same thing as the guy producing 20 are you going to bust your butt?

That in simple terms is the problem with socialism. That does NOT mean "give a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach him to fish he eats for a life time", is wrong. Help when needed is fine, entitlement is not.

The True Story

The first "Thanksgiving" was not so much a celebration as it was the last meal of condemned men.

...The problem with this official story is that the harvest of 1621 was not bountiful, nor were the colonists hardworking or tenacious. 1621 was a famine year and many of the colonists were lazy thieves.

In his 'History of Plymouth Plantation,' the governor of the colony, William Bradford, reported that the colonists went hungry for years, because they refused to work in the fields. They preferred instead to steal food. He says the colony was riddled with "corruption," and with "confusion and discontent." The crops were small because "much was stolen both by night and day, before it became scarce eatable."


But in subsequent years something changes. The harvest of 1623 was different. Suddenly, "instead of famine now God gave them plenty," Bradford wrote, "and the face of things was changed, to the rejoicing of the hearts of many, for which they blessed God." Thereafter, he wrote, "any general want or famine hath not been amongst them since to this day." In fact, in 1624, so much food was produced that the colonists were able to begin exporting corn.

What happened?

After the poor harvest of 1622, writes Bradford, "they began to think how they might raise as much corn as they could, and obtain a better crop." They began to question their form of economic organization.

This had required that "all profits & benefits that are got by trade, working, fishing, or any other means" were to be placed in the common stock of the colony, and that, "all such persons as are of this colony, are to have their meat, drink, apparel, and all provisions out of the common stock." A person was to put into the common stock all he could, and take out only what he needed.

This "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" was an early form of socialism, and it is why the Pilgrims were starving. Bradford writes that "young men that are most able and fit for labor and service" complained about being forced to "spend their time and strength to work for other men's wives and children." Also, "the strong, or man of parts, had no more in division of victuals and clothes, than he that was weak." So the young and strong refused to work and the total amount of food produced was never adequate.

To rectify this situation, in 1623 Bradford abolished socialism. He gave each household a parcel of land and told them they could keep what they produced, or trade it away as they saw fit. In other words, he replaced socialism with a free market, and that was the end of famines.

Many early groups of colonists set up socialist states, all with the same terrible results. At Jamestown, established in 1607, out of every shipload of settlers that arrived, less than half would survive their first twelve months in America. Most of the work was being done by only one-fifth of the men, the other four-fifths choosing to be parasites. In the winter of 1609-10, called "The Starving Time," the population fell from five-hundred to sixty....

The big question is WHY is this true story of the early years in American not taught to every child? Perhaps because the Left vs Right fight is useful to TPTB? Because it keeps the Great Unwashed busy arguing amongst themselves and therefore they do not notice that the bankers and politicians are stealing them blind?

Teach a Husband to fish he sits in a boat and drinks beer all day

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Spot on? You're just regurgitating ignorance about America.

I have yet to see otherwise.

As far as my location, I'm an American citizen currently residing in this country. I'm also a disabled vet.

Why have I hurt your feelings while you slam an entire nation over a small percentage of the American populations ignorance. Look around I see and read a great many very intelligent and well thought threads and posts by Americans here at ATS. Simply because they don't all state their locations or national origin in their mini profiles. But please don't let that stop you from regurgitating your ignorance about what you think you know about 310,000,000 individuals and continue with your generalizations.

So... do you or don't you have information to the contrary?

I've replied and asked a few questions. He answered and gave his opinion.

So?

And?

Your point?

It's just that his assertions paint a different light on communism. I was hoping to see if you could rebut his explanation of history, I know better than to hope for a concession.

reply to post by Rob37n


The answer is very simple; govt has never run anything well besides military, and even that is riddled with waste. When has a govt's control over its people and enterprise ever turned out well? What has govt ever run well? Socialism, Communism, and the shades between have resulted in hundreds of millions of deaths through starvation, genocide, and outright poverty. In fact, even the countries run be religion have the same problem; a govt that is completely in control of its populace is always doomed to oppress its citizens and eventually collapse.

US capitalism and representative democracy may not be perfect, but it is better than any other form of govt on Earth. Even with all the current corruption and problems facing the US, this is the only nation that can solve its problems without complete social disorder, violence, and an overthrow. Why? Because ultimately the govt in the US has to resemble and work for the people, not the other way around.

It's just Americans that hate communism/socialism?

Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot.

All variations on the same theory.

And we all know how that turned out, don't we.

Originally posted by AdAbsurdum
As far as my location, I'm an American citizen currently residing in this country. I'm also a disabled vet.

I find this statement highly dubious, but I'll take your word for it.

So... do you or don't you have information to the contrary?

Nice try. Prove a negative..... Prove that all 310,000,000 Americans are ALL Brainwashed. You're the one who shot his mouth off now prove that.

It's just that his assertions paint a different light on communism. I was hoping to see if you could rebut his explanation of history, I know better than to hope for a concession.

You know better?

After a few replies in one thread now you're also an expert on me and how I'll reply? I have other things to attend to and in the meantime I'll reserve the right to a rebuttal when and where of my choosing not when it is thought of as timely by others thank you very much.

reply to post by killallbullies

first of the all, Nicely done post. thanks for.

The fatal flaw of Socialism and Communism is not balance. It is from the downplay of one varialbe: human instincts, espeically the instincts of self-preservation.

that's common error for many social systems: ones want to suppress/improve human Nature & fails at it -- others want to use darkest edges of human Mind for good or "good" intentions, & 've been ruined at it too because that's pure Pandora's Box with due substantial consequences

Originally posted by SLAYER69
I find this statement highly dubious, but I'll take your word for it.

Well, I have posted on here dealing with military and law enforcement issues before, so I have a track record and this isn't the first time I made this claim. I am currently getting bent over the table by the VA so I can talk about that in minute detail since I don't feel comfortable sharing my DD-214 with the internet, hehe.

Nice try. Prove a negative..... Prove that all 310,000,000 Americans are ALL Brainwashed. You're the one who shot his mouth off now prove that.

I can't that's why I said it's anecdotal in the first place. I think you are getting all uppity over nothing... I haven't claimed there to be any facts behind that statement....

You know better?

Uh, yeah man. It's the internet. I just saw some guy tell another that killing himself was the easy way out while he was just posting about his depression.... So, I've come to learn not to expect too much from the people one interacts with here in world wide web. When I see it I'm impressed, when it doesn't happen I'm not surprised.

After a few replies in one thread now you're also an expert on me and how I'll reply? I have other things to attend to and in the meantime I'll reserve the right to a rebuttal when and where of my choosing not when it is thought of as timely by others thank you very much.

edit on 2-12-2010 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

No, I don't think I am an expert... You can stop attributing to me positions I don't hold now...

Holy crap, post or don't post. I'm just trying to be civil. I'm not attempting to come anywhere near telling you what to do. I am just trying to keep the conversation rolling because it interests me. I wasn't even sure if you saw it. After reviewing your profile you say that you dislike discussing political ideologies, or something to that effect, so your responses are making more sense to me, but really. You can relax, I'm not gonna troll you.