Can China Invade Taiwan?

Originally posted by bodebliss

China is being childish and (as I said in my last post to middle kindome) it's beginning to cost them in relations w/ other countries.


www.taipeitimes.com...

Using taipeitimes still?

I use the internet at will, can you deny it? I'm here aren't I?

As for wikipedia, I use other sources such as "China! Inside the People's Republic" by the North American Comittee of Concerned Asian Scholars and "Mao: A Life" by Phillip Short, both western printings, but Wikipedia however is easier to copy and paste from and I have quoted from books.

Your just nitpicking.

Originally posted by puri
... Why can't everybody just stand back and let them finish what they had started, and ley the winner take all... But if they deny that they are Chinese and still insist on ocuppying Chinese small peanut, they should consider themselves doomed and comdemned. They will be among the first to die...

Forget it, I doubt the world will sit idle while a genocide is taking place in Taiwan. Your above comments and other replies just show your true blind fascist character; just solve the problem with guns and killings, even when the majority of Taiwanese do not feel they are Chinese and a majority favor a status quo and not a unification.

Blobber

[edit on 24-10-2005 by Blobber]

true a majority favor the status quo, but also don't support complete independance thus we can hope to strive for peaceful unification.

I'm not entirely sure that Chinawhite's post means exactly what you consider it to mean.

But even so the desire of the people on land that does legally belong to China under international law doesn't matter. We have a legal pretext for forced unification if nessary, its a renegade province and was ours since the 1600's you cannot deny this and under the succesion of states theory belongs to us.

If the Confederates wanted to rise again would you let them? Chechnya wants to separate but the Russians won't let them where's the world's condemnation of Russia?

What about Hawaii? They have a sessesion movement but America is not letting them separate either, and then theirs Kashmere which also wants ot be its own country but India and Pakistan isn't letting them but no one is critisising them for it.

So quite frankly the only reason why anyone gives a shi for Taiwan is because it annoys us and America is doing what it can do to weaken us wihtout risking outright war.

As it is now, we're doing our best for peaceful unification as a gesture of our willingness to join the international community and have been rewarded for it with MFN status and membership in the WTO.

So as far as I see it matters will resolve themselves within 20 years what happens can't be determined by a bunch of anyomynous people on a random forum.

The Middle Kingdom,

I know too little to comment on Chenya and Kashmir. I believe however in the free will of the people: e.g. independence of East-Timor, former Yugoslavia, former Czechoslovakia and many former USSR nations. If the majority of the Haiwaians want independence, so be it IMHO.

My previous reply was not directed to Chinawhite, rather to Puri who proposed a solution of "survival of the fittest" regarding to this problem.

The polls have clearly shown that the majority of the Tawainese do not feel they are Chinese, also at this moment they favor the current status quo (of course they won't favor independence with a looming big threat up in the north).

China, the oldest on going civilization in the world, will reclaim her top position that she had in the past. Big opportunities arise for China, that's why I cannot understand why she (China) wants to risk these opprtunities for Taiwan.

You are right, no posters on any forum can change the course that will happen in the future. Let the Taiwanese themselves decide what is best for them, not China and not the USA.

Blobber

[edit on 24-10-2005 by Blobber]

That is far better then Bode's comments on how China will suffer a horrible collapse etc etc.

But the reason why is that China, as in the people within China generally believe deeply that we've been shorn of a part of our heritage and our soverignty when we consider when Taiwan was denied us.

Which s why China will not relent on this issue because it is deeply embedded within our hearts and minds.

And finally, Bodebliss is nothing more then a troll, he has stopped using any kind of coherent arguement because we have destroyed each of his arguements and he evades this by nitpiking a post, or in Chinawhites case by completely ignoring a valid question and responds with ad hominen attacks.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

Originally posted by Taishyou
I think couple people here have either lived in China before or are living China right now, they can speak of the Taiwan situation from common knowledge. You are an outsider with little experience of the situation,

Really, what common knowledge?
What makes living in China special when it comes to knowlege of Taiwan?
I would suggest that in many ways Chinese would be no better informed about Taiwan than any other foreigners who choose to inform themselves.

All I said was that politics, events, etc about Taiwan is common knowledge in China, and those outside China would actually have to go search for information. I never said either knowledge is more accurate or more unbiased. My post was entirely regarding the issue of posting links vs not posting links.

Look at it this way. Imagine a bunch of Americans babbling about Republicans and Democrats, then say a Chinese guy came and joins in. The Americans would already have known lots about Republicans and Democrats since they're on the news everyday and their political stances are well known to the general public. The Chinese guy in China may not have known enough about them already and thus have to go look for sources to back up his claims.

E.g. Chinese guy:"That stupid Bush fainted while eating pretzels and watching football, here's the link: www.(whatever).com"
American guy:"oh yeah... but Kerry likes to do flip flops (no links)"

Same thing for Taiwan. Everybody in China knows what's going on with Taiwan from just plain knowledge. Taiwan's on the news like every day. They don't have to specifically go out there and search for links, it's an unnecessary hassle. Besides, even if they do post a link from a news site it would likely be in Chinese and few would be able to read it.

[edit on 24-10-2005 by Taishyou]

Whose knews is Taiwan on everyday?

All I said was to consider the source. And you said nothing about politics etc. Now you're qualifying.

My point still stands. Being a Chinese national, or living in China is no reason to automatically assume one has more knowledge of Taiwan or the situation in Taiwan than any other foreigner.

Ok, here's what I believe is the Taiwanese point of view.

Taiwan HAS been a province of China for quite some time, most notably from 1683-1895 under the Qing government, but various events from 1895 to the present have made the people of Taiwan grow distant from the mainland

First, in 1895 the Japanese defeated the Qing dynasty in the first Sino-Japan war, and as a result Taiwan was annexed by Japan. Japan's rule on the island was initially very harsh, and many resistance movements on the island took place against the Japanese but were unsuccessful. The Qing administration at the time really sucked and they practically abandoned Taiwan, doing nothing about the Japanese, leaving the Taiwanese to suffer by themselves. Eventually though Taiwan became very industrialised under Japanese rule so the Taiwanese end up having a better opinion of the Japanese.

Second, after its defeat in WWII, 1945, Japan ceded Taiwan to the KMT of the ROC (which from 1945-1949 included both the mainland and the island). The KMT at the time was horribly corrupt and brutal and their rule on the island was barbaric. The 228 incident on Feruary 28, 1947 involved killings of 30000 anti-KMT Taiwanese by the KMT. At the same time the KMT was fighting a war with the CCP and made huge use of resources from Taiwan. In 1949 the KMT was finally defeated by the CCP and from then on they maintained their brutal rule on Taiwan until 1996 when the government form of Taiwan switched from single-party to multi-party

So in summary:
1895: Japanese took over Taiwan and oppressed the Taiwanese population, Qing administration abandoned Taiwan. -100 points for Taiwan's respect for the mainland. Later on, Japan industralised Taiwan while the mainland is in the middle of the KMT vs CCP war and cared nothing about Taiwan, that's another -100 points. 1945 - 1996, KMT's brutal rule on Taiwan, -100 points. With those events, the Taiwanese are pretty much tired of mainland political parties, but now yet another mainland party, the CCP, wants to control Taiwan. With already -300 points on the respect-o-meter of mainland parties, it's only natural that half of Taiwan don't want to be ruled by the CCP (those people form the pan green camp, pro independence). The other half are more afraid of war than rule by the CCP so they are more moderate when it comes to China and follow the pan blue camp (pro reunification/pro status quo)

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
My point still stands. Being a Chinese national, or living in China is no reason to automatically assume one has more knowledge of Taiwan or the situation in Taiwan than any other foreigner.

Did you even read what I wrote? I only said the source of information of certain members living in China may be from common knowledge rather than from specifically searched web links. I didn't say either source of information (these being common knowledge vs specifically searched web links) is more accurate, more unbiased, or more in quantity or quality.

As for whose news Taiwan is on almost everyday... isn't that pretty obvious? Just go to China and flick on the TV, go to CCTV or some other news channel, or read a newspaper, there's bound to be something about Taiwan.

[edit on 24-10-2005 by Taishyou]

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
I was born in Bendigo, I've been surrounded by Chinese culture my entire life.

Bendigo is just chinese people. not chinese culture.

Nearly all chinese living thre are on there 3-4th generation.

Doesn't matter what generation they are. Now who's appearing ignorant? So, the ethnic Chinese of Bendigo don't follow their own culture, then why assume the ethnic Chinese of Taiwan do? Or the ethnic Chinese of San Francisco? Hell, maybe all your time in Australia has removed you from your culture.

Ever lived in Bendigo? Read extended media reports about it? Spoken to people who live or have lived there?

And my point about living in China and claiming knowledge of Taiwan still stands.

Because the people tashiyou are talking about have been overseas.

overseas chinese know what overseas chinese think. A very large percent of overseas chinese are from two regions guangdong or fujian, these two dominat south-east asias population of chinese and australian chinese

No, he was saying that people living in China now or in the past would know more about Taiwan, just because they have or do live in China.

what makes you think you think like all Chinese, let alone like a Taiwanese?

On certain issues i do.

Anyway when did i say i think like all chinese and taiwanese?

I was turning your argument back on you. Do pay attention.

I don't assume I think like all Australians,I didn't vote for John Howard, yet obviously a majority did.

You dont anyway.

The reason labour lost was because they had a poor candidate. which later turned out to be a rat.

Aah, even although we have never met, had no extended discussions of the Australian political scene or corresponded over a period of years, you know how I think, with such confidence that you can make declarations about me without seeing how they might apply to you.

You can also assume that I voted for Mark Latham, without knowing which electorate I vote in or even if I voted ALP, but I'll keep the technical lesson for another time.

It is quite possible that on many views I think exactly the same way a majority of Australians do. I believe that when it comes to democracy and freedom 90% of voting-age (who matter) and even teenage Australians would think exactly the way I do. We love our freedoms.

3.7 million might be a significant proportion of Taiwan's population, 'though I doubt it, what, they're barely bigger than New Zealand? but unless they are visiting all corners of the PRC and speaking to all the people then "China" and the "Chinese" as a monolithic block are not learning about Taiwan from the Taiwanese but from the CCP.

The CCP doesn't control peoples lives,

yes the censor puvlic speaking but they dont monitor what is said about them in private.

That is controlling someone's life. And they control the media, which is also controlling someone's life.


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China is a big place with 56 different ethnic groups. the 3.7million taiwanese are learning about china in areas which their ancestors came from. and doing a large percent of buiness to.

Australia is a big place with an equal number of religious and ethnic groups. Hell, it even has more languages than China.

You've just admitted that China is not a free society. Taiwan is. By that token my statement about empathy is true.

It is common knowledge that china doesn't have the level of free speech in a demoracy. but if you want to run a country with 1.3billion indiviuals thinking differently or have two different opinions its extremly difficult.

China is still one party and will remain one party for the present near future


It has already been having elections in the countryside since the 80s and is going to have elctions at the city level

How many people choose the President, the people's committee or the Preasidium?

I can slag Johnny off on the steps of Flinders Street station.

slag? you mean spit on them.

If you mean spit then you will go to jail or do some very pathetic community service

For someone living in Australia you have a poor understanding of Aussie slang. The verb was slag (to spit or insult (n) waste metal), the preposition was off, to slag off - to insult, to slag on - to spit.

The Taiwanese can, and do, criticise Chen shui-Bian in public, the CCP sends in the tanks, therefore I can understand how the Taiwanese think and mainlanders cannot simply because I share the same motivations and freedoms.

the taiwanese resort to violence to get their views across.

Their are two main groups in taiwan. pan-blue and pan-green. these two always are at each other often violent.

thats taiwanese demoracy.

The Chinese don't need to resort to violence to get their views across, they suffer from the government's violence when they try peacefully. At least the Taiwanese are able to discuss issues that arouse such passion and that's what matters.

Originally posted by bodebliss


Your being childish and silly. Write your own answer .


China is being childish and (as I said in my last post to middle kindome) it's beginning to cost them in relations w/ other countries.

ROFL YOU HAVE EVADED MY QUESTION AGAIN

How am I being childish? You are the one that stated you were so willing to nuke another nation and take nukes as if millions of Americans death mattered nothing to you.

ROFL I just want you to answer my question but OBVIOUSLY you cannot do that. You make a completely ignorant comment and cannot back up what you say when confronted with an argument.

My question is NOT childish at all, your comment in fact is childish. Ask anyone here... You made the childish comment, then you evade my argument... MANY MANY TIMES... Then FINALLY you say that you DID answer my question but when I confront you that you did not, you now tell me to draw my own answer.

Bodebliss, you should not even be arguing here anymore, you have been "Pwned"

Until you can honestly answer my question and STOP evading it for the 8th time, I don't think ANYONE here can take you seriously.

Someone just read the recent posts that I made and read Bodebliss' replies... It is so funny the way he avoids my questionsn and calls me childish for asking a VERY appropiate question to his VERY unappropiate comment.

His Comment: "It will be a short war filled with nuke exchanges.

You'll hurl your 23 nukes and we'll hurl our 7,000 10 megaton warheads."

My Reply For what are you so willing to trade millions of American lives for?


SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHO SEEMS MORE CHILDISH PLEASE SOMEONE TELL ME



[edit on 24-10-2005 by k4rupt]

[edit on 24-10-2005 by k4rupt]

The National People's Congress chooses the president, and the people elect in the congress.

Next Taiwan is Chinese, just because they call themselves Taiwanese doesn't make them any less Chinese, just as citizens of Moscow call themselves Moscowvites doesn't make them any less Russian.

Next, I think that whatshisname arguement is slightly in the wrong in regarding chinese culture overseas, though a large difference between Taiwan and them is that the Chinese in San Fran or Vancover left China to pursue a different life in North America, the Chinese in Taiwan did not leave China they were taken from China so its only natural we want them back to come home.

Also, remember that while Taiwan has been away from the mainland for a while its population was settled by Han Chinese and inter mixed with the small aberiginal communitee, when they were siezed by Japan they're culture did not become more Japanese or assimilated by the Japanese as the Chinese in North America have been, though I'm certain that in large communities like the "Chinatowns" they do a good job at preserving their culture.

Finally, we want them to come peacefully and willingly so we're doing everything we can to make it worth it for them. There's NO denying it but nevertheless we will not tolerate Taiwan being taken from us again, we reserved the right of armed force just as a parent may discipline a pouting child. The Island of Formosa has been legally ours since 1948 according to internation law, according to the United Nations, and according to the United States itself it is our island and they're can never be 2 China's.

But remember nevertheless we reserve armed force only as a LAST RESORT just as if Hawaii wanted to separate from the Union you'ld probly do your best to leave armed force as a last resort as well if you had any sense.

As I said I think he doesn't understand what the short term and long term costs of nuclear war are, he's under the mindset that "a single death is a tragedy a million is a statistic" -Josef Stalin.

Seriosuly any sane person would understand that they're is no winning a nuclear war or else one would have happened by now.

Wait they're is one way but that involves the enemy not having nukes in the first place.

If he seriosuly believes he's willing to trade millions of American lives then he's insane and leave it at that.

Is America's place in the world worth millions of American lives? Would probably be a better question.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
No, he was saying that people living in China now or in the past would know more about Taiwan, just because they have or do live in China.

This is not what I am saying, and I think I've repeated this twice now. I said people in China may get all their information from TV news, newspapers, books, magazines, etc, which collectively I consider common knowledge because of its sheer abundance on mainland China, and thus they are simply spoken from everyday knowledge and not cited on this forum. This is in contrast to those not living in China who either do not have access to the things I mentioned, or do so only in a limited quantity (I know Taiwan is not on the news every day in the US), and therefore base their sources primarily from websites and thus they post the links of what they saw.

I have not implied that any of these two types sources are superior to one another, or that people basing knowledge on either source know more than those that base it on another.

[edit on 24-10-2005 by Taishyou]

Originally posted by Taishyou

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
My point still stands. Being a Chinese national, or living in China is no reason to automatically assume one has more knowledge of Taiwan or the situation in Taiwan than any other foreigner.

Did you even read what I wrote? I only said the source of information of certain members living in China may be from common knowledge rather than from specifically searched web links. I didn't say either source of information (these being common knowledge vs specifically searched web links) is more accurate, more unbiased, or more in quantity or quality.

Is exactly what you said.

And again, I say "consider the source."

As for being Taiwanese or Chinese, both are separate nationalities. That makes them different. Ooooh, you mean you couldn't separate the differences between ethnicity and nationality.

So am I Australian or Caucasian (assuming I'm white), or am I aboriginal, Koori or indiginous Australian (assuming I'm black), or am I Greek, Italian, Polish etc.?

The Uighars, for example, are Chinese in neither ethnicity nor nationality, given that some of them were born in East Turkestan.

And your example of two Yanks talking sucks. Let's say two French are talking about Britain or two Indians are talking about Sri Lanka and a third person enters the conversation and even there they are too dissimilar to be good analogies.

How about two mining engineers are talking about the problems of shaft mining and someone who once saw a Discovery Channel documentary joins the conversation?

But then, even that doesn't work because the engineers are experts in their field.

How about two Star Trek fans are discussing the relative merits of Dr Who and a third person joins?

[edit on 24-10-2005 by HowlrunnerIV]

The bottom line is that the US will defend its interests in Taiwan against the Chinese, and the Chinese will not risk a limited war with the US and the loss of nearly all international relations over that island.

If they do, they are insane.

Taishyou:
So in summary:
1895: Japanese took over Taiwan and oppressed the Taiwanese population, Qing administration abandoned Taiwan. -100 points for Taiwan's respect for the mainland. Later on, Japan industralised Taiwan while the mainland is in the middle of the KMT vs CCP war and cared nothing about Taiwan, that's another -100 points. 1945 - 1996, KMT's brutal rule on Taiwan, -100 points. With those events, the Taiwanese are pretty much tired of mainland political parties, but now yet another mainland party, the CCP, wants to control Taiwan. With already -300 points on the respect-o-meter of mainland parties, it's only natural that half of Taiwan don't want to be ruled by the CCP (those people form the pan green camp, pro independence). The other half are more afraid of war than rule by the CCP so they are more moderate when it comes to China and follow the pan blue camp (pro reunification/pro status quo)

That's a good summary. This is what I have seen. A portion(not the newly arrived KMT descendents) think their history stretches back before the Dutch and want to govern themselves finally.

Middle kangdom:

That is far better then Bode's comments on how China will suffer a horrible collapse etc etc.

But the reason why is that China, as in the people within China generally believe deeply that we've been shorn of a part of our heritage and our soverignty when we consider when Taiwan was denied us.

Dictatorships collapse that is what happens to dictatorships. Either violently or peacefully, they collapse.

As to the second part, that's just nonsense.

Oh please mr. china how many of your relatives are burried on Taiwan?

And finally, Bodebliss is nothing more then a troll,

Lowering yourself to name calling won't save you.

Chinawhites case by completely ignoring a valid question and responds with ad hominen attacks.

Chinawhite, huh? Is that the guy who sits at the next desk in the Hall of Proper Speech of the People in Beijing?













[edit on 10/25/2005 by bodebliss]

Bodebliss, you should not even be arguing here anymore, you have been "Pwned"

Until you can honestly answer my question and STOP evading it for the 8th time, I don't think ANYONE here can take you seriously.

Someone just read the recent posts that I made and read Bodebliss' replies... It is so funny the way he avoids my questionsn and calls me childish for asking a VERY appropiate question to his VERY unappropiate comment.

This part of your post makes you sound Like You Are 5 Years Old!

Did your mom let you get on the internet again? How sweet of her.

His Comment: "It will be a short war filled with nuke exchanges.

You'll hurl your 23 nukes and we'll hurl our 7,000 10 megaton warheads."

That is the US's stated policy that it's always ready to use all it's nuclear arsenal.








[edit on 10/24/2005 by bodebliss]