Can China Invade Taiwan?

Originally posted by ikillspys

Some Taiwanese are native aborigines who are related to Australian Aborigines

[edit on 17-9-2005 by ikillspys]

THis isn't correct. Aboriginal Taiwanese are known as proto-Austronesian. Thousands of years ago, their ancestors began moving southward into the Philippines and through island Southeast Asia and modern-day central Viet Nam (the Chams). They then spread westward to Madagascar and eastward into the islands of the Pacific. There is no evidence that the Aboriginal Taiwanese have any connections with Aboriginal Australians.

Originally posted by chinawhite


I was asking Luda where he was in Fujian

I already know that to. i was asking Luda how they managed to get aboroginal blood

I have been to Fuzhou and Xiamen (and small towns in between).

As for aboriginal blood, intermarriage. In the early days of settlement in Taiwan, few women accompanied the men that came to Taiwan. Men being men, they copulated with local aboriginal women, introducing aboriginal traits into the growing immigrant population. Eventually, nearly every Minnan person who would come to Taiwan would eventually marry someone with aboriginal heritage, even if they didn't know it.

Originally posted by chinawhite

Any links or source on this.

I followed the story for a few days before it died down.

Earlier this year, it was in every newspaper and news channel here in Taiwan. I don't have any links handy though.

Originally posted by ludahai
I have been to Fuzhou and Xiamen (and small towns in between).

then you must have been to putian?

As for aboriginal blood, intermarriage. In the early days of settlement in Taiwan, few women accompanied the men that came to Taiwan. Men being men, they copulated with local aboriginal women, introducing aboriginal traits into the growing immigrant population. Eventually, nearly every Minnan person who would come to Taiwan would eventually marry someone with aboriginal heritage, even if they didn't know it.

In the dutch period that might have been ture. but during the Konxinga period there was nearly a equal amount of men and women .

They didn't come to live with the locals. they drove them into the mountains.

And if this was true about the population having a little bit of aboriginal blood It would have been into the 8-9 generation right now

Earlier this year, it was in every newspaper and news channel here in Taiwan. I don't have any links handy though.

That would be easier to find then.

chinese will be fine

Originally posted by chinawhite
In the dutch period that might have been ture. but during the Konxinga period there was nearly a equal amount of men and women .

They didn't come to live with the locals. they drove them into the mountains.

And if this was true about the population having a little bit of aboriginal blood It would have been into the 8-9 generation right now

The main point is that most Taiwanese have some aboriginal gene, from the mother's side. Even during the Japanese period, some people that has Chinese last name are still classified as aboriginal in cencus because they live in aboriginal tribal areas.

Edit: Another thing is that the aboriginal tribes that live in the mountain region are already there long before outsider came to the island. They have far less contact with the outsiders than the tribes that live on the plain.

[edit on 18-9-2005 by twchang]

Originally posted by chinawhite

Earlier this year, it was in every newspaper and news channel here in Taiwan. I don't have any links handy though.

That would be easier to find then.

chinese will be fine

But with the holiday yesterday (BTW, happy Mid-Autumn Festival) and work today, I don't have time to look for the link right now.

Originally posted by chinawhite


then you must have been to putian?

Perhaps. I don't remember the name of every village my friend brought me to. I really enjoyed the trip though.

In the dutch period that might have been ture. but during the Konxinga period there was nearly a equal amount of men and women .

They didn't come to live with the locals. they drove them into the mountains.

Again, not entirely true. Even as late as the 1730s and 1740s, there was a huge imbalance of men to women settling in Taiwan (or simply coming seasonly - which was common then.) Migration was prohibited most of that time and Taiwan was seen as a dangerous, frontier area. Not fit for bringing women over, and in many cases, it simply wasn't allowed as the local officials who were permitting men to traverse the strait wanted them to return.

They didn't come to live with them, but they certainly couldn't resist their manly urges either.

As for driving them off to the mountains, in those early decades of Minnan settlement, they drove them off further north at first. Remember, there were two classifications of aboriginies. Pingpu (plains) and Shandi (mountains.) Over time, the Pingpu aborigines mostly intermixed with the Minnan people coming from Fujian. Thus, most Minnan (Taiwanese) people in Taiwan do have at least a trace of aborigine blood in them. Many have more than just a trace.

And if this was true about the population having a little bit of aboriginal blood It would have been into the 8-9 generation right now

But if you are marrying people who also have aboriginal ancestry, the traits wouldn't dilute.

I don't have time to look for the link right now.

can you provide a link when ready

(BTW, happy Mid-Autumn Festival)

you too

Again, not entirely true. Even as late as the 1730s and 1740s, there was a huge imbalance of men to women settling in Taiwan (or simply coming seasonly - which was common then.) Migration was prohibited most of that time and Taiwan was seen as a dangerous, frontier area.

How much aboriginals were in taiwan during the 18th centuray?

in 1893 taiwans population was 2.54 million people in 507,000 households. In 1949 there were 6million + another 2million mainlanders.

during the 50 years of japanese occuaption the taiwanese population rose 130%.


If chinese men mainly came then there would still be a large gap between men and women.

Not fit for bringing women over, and in many cases, it simply wasn't allowed as the local officials who were permitting men to traverse the strait wanted them to return.

Why would they want them to return?

They didn't come to live with them, but they certainly couldn't resist their manly urges either.

Then with the large settlement of chinese men what happened to aboriginal men?

As for driving them off to the mountains, in those early decades of Minnan settlement, they drove them off further north at first. Remember, there were two classifications of aboriginies. Pingpu (plains) and Shandi (mountains.) Over time, the Pingpu aborigines mostly intermixed with the Minnan people coming from Fujian. Thus, most Minnan (Taiwanese) people in Taiwan do have at least a trace of aborigine blood in them. Many have more than just a trace.

I wouldn't call pingpu people aboriginal. they are more like filipinos or indonesians. the aboriginals i am refering to are the ones that are related to the new zealand maoris

But if you are marrying people who also have aboriginal ancestry, the traits wouldn't dilute.

The newer immigrants that came to taiwan after the japanese occupation have diluted the blood. they were pure chinese and might have married a half or a quarter ii-breed

Originally posted by chinawhite
The newer immigrants that came to taiwan after the japanese occupation have diluted the blood. they were pure chinese and might have married a half or a quarter ii-breed

Hahaha..."pure Chinese", that phrase just makes me laugh for some reason.

Anyway, I don't think this statement is completely correct because they are actually the minority (2 million refugees). I think during that time Taiwan already has 6 million or more people.

There were marriages between the new comers and the Taiwanese. But many of them flee with families. And some of the young officers don't get married because they think they will get back to China soon. Also, back then the KMT setup towns specifically for the refugees, and many of them in the towns doesn't really get involved with the society outside.

In any case, from another point of view, you can also say that the aboriginal genes have been spreaded, not diluted

Firstly there is no such thing as a race.

Secondly there is no such thing as a pure race.

There is no difference on a genetic level between us all.

Originally posted by twchang

Hahaha..."pure Chinese", that phrase just makes me laugh for some reason.

I meant pure chinese as chinese that hasn't breeded with the local aboriginals

In any case, from another point of view, you can also say that the aboriginal genes have been spreaded, not diluted

The aboriginal population of taiwan is 440,000. in the 17th centuray it was about the same or lower. you cant have expected that every aboriginal women would throw themselves at this new culture.

Now it might have been 10%(thats pretty generous). They might have married themselves or might have married more chinese.

So the end result is a very diluted Gene Pool of aboriginal blood

[edit on 19-9-2005 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by chinawhite
The aboriginal population of taiwan is 440,000. in the 17th centuray it was about the same or lower. you cant have expected that every aboriginal women would throw themselves at this new culture.

440,000 is the population of the mountain region aboriginals. As someone metion earlier though, we are mainly talking about the plain aboriginals here.

www.eh.net...

Hmm...don't think that source is accurate on everything...but it says the Dutch encounters 70,000 aboriginals, and since they control mainly the Tainan area, I imagine there were more. The Chinese influx during that time is 35,000, which is less than the aboriginal population. Not sure about the actually number, but there are Chinese coming and going well into Manchu dynasty.

In any case, as someone mentioned earlier, this process happens over long period of time.

And yea, not all aboriginal accept the new cultures. Some plain aboriginals were forced to immigrate toward north and east of Taiwan where there were less new comers. But some choose to stay.

Another interesting thing is that many aboriginal tribes were female dominant society.

Now it might have been 10%(thats pretty generous). They might have married themselves or might have married more chinese.

So the end result is a very diluted Gene Pool of aboriginal blood

I am not sure if you can calculate it like that...if half of my 16 grand-grand-grand parents are aboriginals then I am half aboriginal.

But I don't think it matters that much...1%, 10%, 50%, 75%, it is there. Today, some Taiwanese looks more like aboriginal, some looks more like Chinese, but it doesn't really matter.


[edit on 20-9-2005 by twchang]

Originally posted by Odium
Firstly there is no such thing as a race.

Secondly there is no such thing as a pure race.

There is no difference on a genetic level between us all.

Yea, I agree. The thing is in the past Chinese propaganda (including CCP and KMT) tries to use this "we are all Chinese" statement as a reason for unification.

Disregarding the validity of that statement, it is just silly. If that kind of statement can be used as a reason for "unification", then perhaps all should be united under Africa becuase some scientists believe that is the origin of all human race today.

[edit on 20-9-2005 by twchang]

[edit on 20-9-2005 by twchang]

But instead of saying "No we are Taiwanese" why not actually educate the people with the truth?

Again both cases are telling a lie.

Here's proof that capitalism and economic opportunity given China will not lead to democracy in China.

Many people hope that China's economic development will lead to democracy, as was the case in Taiwan and South Korea. That, however, is a vain hope.
When civilization moved towards capitalism, which led to rapid economic development, the first step was both painful and cruel. In England in the 1500s, farmers were evicted from almost 10 million hectares of land. They were forced to the cities where they worked for low wages, while five-year-old children worked 10-hour-days in mines and textile factories.

That was how the "original capital accumulation" by the nobility came about.

Taiwan was far luckier. The four Asian tigers -- Taiwan, South Korea, Hong Kong and Singapore -- started labor-intensive production for export to the US, Japan and Europe. This transferred the local contradiction between exploiter and exploited to Europe and the US. Taiwan's miraculous economic growth then allowed it to escape the excessive exploitation of domestic labor that occurred during the early stages of the industrial revolution. Despite rapid economic growth, the gap between rich and poor diminished.

China's growing economy is now copying the Asian tigers' export-oriented approach. But although China tries to export its internal contradictions, it cannot do so successfully, which led to China's US$70 billion trade surplus with the US last year, while the manufacturing industry has entered an era of "microprofits."

If China wants to turn to domestic demand, the amount of natural resources that would be consumed by 1.4 billion people is frightening, and certain to cause an explosion of raw materials.

An increase in raw materials and a decrease in finished products would lead to even smaller profits. With no colonies to plunder, the only route remaining is harsh exploitation of local labor.

The development strategy established by Deng Xiaoping (鄧小平) led to a system dividing the population into city dwellers, farmers, laborers and vagrants. Laborers were treated as "foreign labor."

The so-called socialist market economy was divided into two parts -- a socialist-style control of labor and a market economy where employers were free to exploit labor, allowing quick accumulation of capital.

Since this rapid economic growth is built on depriving people of democracy and freedom, it is strange to think that economic growth will bring democracy in its wake.

Income inequality in today's China is severe. The difference in average income between Guizhou and Shanghai is tenfold. There is also a big difference in legal salaries between different provinces, and the difference is even greater in illegal salaries.

There is a huge army of laborers ready to be further exploited. China has been turned into a giant camp for slave labor.

Chinese President Hu Jintao (胡錦濤) pays more attention to social justice than Deng or former Chinese president Jiang Zemin (江澤民) did, and he wants to eliminate uneven development. In 2001, he relaxed controls on rural village and township populations, but city dwellers and farmers are still strictly controlled.

I cannot see any chance of changing a system that exploits the domestic "colonized," the laborers. Economic and social rights have been restricted, and democracy and freedom will be more forcefully controlled. In this area, Hu has a tighter grip than both Deng and Jiang.

If one looks to the people and to actual experience, there is a chance that the Chinese people would be able to build a democratic politics. But a look at the system, however, gives no reason for hope.


ORIGIN

Originally posted by Odium
But instead of saying "No we are Taiwanese" why not actually educate the people with the truth?

Again both cases are telling a lie.

Why is "we are Taiwanese" a lie? If you live in Taiwan, you can call yourself Taiwanese right? That is the same as if you live in Canada, then you can call yourself Canadian. What is wrong with that?

If you live in Taiwan and don't call yourself Taiwanese, no one cares. Taiwanese is just a way to refer to people who live in Taiwan or come from Taiwan.

And many people in Taiwan already know about this history thing, but many of them still have little knowledge about it. Many have little knowledge about Taiwan even because in the past the KMT education teach students little about Taiwan. They teach us more about China. For example, when I was little, I thought I can get to Nanjin in China by driving.

Also, it is hard to just "educate" people about this thing because most people will consider them as boring subjects. Especially some middle age adult, who just believe whatever KMT taught them, and probably have little interests in this information.


[edit on 20-9-2005 by twchang]

Let me ask this question.

What other justification could the U.S. have besides Taiwan that could justify a war against China?

I could think of maybe 1.3 billion reasons.

Originally posted by bodebliss
I could think of maybe 1.3 billion reasons.

So list those 1.3 billion reasons. That's why I asked the question.