There is No Eternal Hell Fire

Originally posted by Calender

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Calender
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Ok, I understand that part. What does that have to do with Jesus dying for our sins? Are you saying he really didn't die? I'm not following.

Oh, not at all. I'm saying the real "You" or "Me" cannot be seen in this world, we just see the body, the shell that houses the soul/spirit. The body is just dust and water, it returns to dust. The Soul/spirit are eternal and immortal. If the body dies, the soul/spirit move along to be with the Lord, or eternally separated from Him depending upon one's personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Ok, I understand you believe the soul is inherently immortal. Will you please reconcile this belief with the following two scriptures:

The soul that sinneth, it shall die.-Ezekiel 18:4 KJV.

(Matthew 10:28) . . .Be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge‧hen′na. . .

I already did. The separation of the soul from the immortal spirit is called the "second death" by Jesus. My guess is that since the soul is home to the mind, will, and emotions those whom are lost are just spirits in an incorruptible body. Without memories of their past lives, no hope, no faith, no will...

Sad really to think about. I'm just thankful to the Lord's sacrifice that I'll never know for 100% certainty.

reply to post by Calender

I don't exactly have a bone to pick with JW's and there are fine points of difference.
I don't feel like they are some kind of a threat, and if you want to feel special or something then fine.
Personally, I find the concept rather abhorrent, there being separate classes, like ordinary, merely "saved" and then, the "priestly" or something. I don't really get it and I suppose if one was to be raised to think that, then it would seem normal to them.
Really? What sort of thoughts cross your mind when you meditate? Do you see yourself as being special?
Like you read a verse, and you imagine that it has to be speaking to you directly?
I don't want to be mean, exactly and I wonder if I make people not want to post here.
I actually don't hate anyone and I feel nothing but compassion for everyone and despite what some people might think, I don't do this to build myself up or get some kind of an ego trip out of it.
I get on people's case at church in a really serious way and they may be having a debate behind the scenes about whether to kick me out, for all I know. The point is, it does not make me feel good or superior or anything. It seriously makes me wonder about myself and if I am over the top.

Originally posted by Calender
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Sorry I was referring that part to Dewy. But after you explain those two scriptures for me (quoted above) please reason if you believe Jesus actually died for our sins, or if he really didn't die because he is immortal, and thus there was no ransom given.

Oh, His body surely died. And it says He "gave up his ghost". And that His body "didn't see corruption" (decay) before He was resurrected. He most assuredly died for us. And the purpose was not for Him to cease to exist per se for 3 days, but for His body to die. "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.."

He shed His innocent blood for the remission of our sins. But Jesus's spirit never "died" it merely went to Abraham's Bosom until the resurrection and brought the righteous dead with Him when resurrected. Jesus's spirit was "from everlasting", He took a body to shed His blood for us, and was resurrected in that same body, but Him, the "real" Jesus never ceased to exist, not even for 3 days.

Make sense? The "real" you and I are not our bodies, they are temporary houses for our eternal soul/spirit. The only difference between our spirits and Jesus's is ours were created by Him at our conception and the Lord's has always existed with the Father from before the foundation of the world.

reply to post by Maddogkull


I agree.
The verse that says that Hell and Death were thrown into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed does it for me. I mean if 'Hell' is an eternal fire like so many preachers seem to say, then how can it destroyed in the Lake of Fire?
Obviously 'hell' is some sort of temporary place.

See... this answers the question that so many people ask of 'How can a loving God send people to Hell forever?"
According to the scriptures, He doesn't! Every person is punished according to what they did on Earth, unless they are made clean by the blood of Jesus, then they don't have to perish. See it all makes sense! ;D

If people actually READ the bible instead of going by hearsay, and stopped twisting the sacred texts to fit their own lives, there would be a lot less confusion.

Originally posted by freedish
reply to post by Maddogkull

 

I agree.
The verse that says that Hell and Death were thrown into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed does it for me. I mean if 'Hell' is an eternal fire like so many preachers seem to say, then how can it destroyed in the Lake of Fire?
Obviously 'hell' is some sort of temporary place.

See... this answers the question that so many people ask of 'How can a loving God send people to Hell forever?"
According to the scriptures, He doesn't! Every person is punished according to what they did on Earth, unless they are made clean by the blood of Jesus, then they don't have to perish. See it all makes sense! ;D

If people actually READ the bible instead of going by hearsay, and stopped twisting the sacred texts to fit their own lives, there would be a lot less confusion.

You must understand in the context of that verse it's merely saying the souls/spirits in Hell will be cast into the "Lake of Fire". Kinda like when the nations are judged in Revelation, it's speaking about the people in those nations and not the ground the nation occupies.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Calender

 

I don't exactly have a bone to pick with JW's and there are fine points of difference.
I don't feel like they are some kind of a threat, and if you want to feel special or something then fine.
Personally, I find the concept rather abhorrent, there being separate classes, like ordinary, merely "saved" and then, the "priestly" or something. I don't really get it and I suppose if one was to be raised to think that, then it would seem normal to them.
Really? What sort of thoughts cross your mind when you meditate? Do you see yourself as being special?
Like you read a verse, and you imagine that it has to be speaking to you directly?
I don't want to be mean, exactly and I wonder if I make people not want to post here.
I actually don't hate anyone and I feel nothing but compassion for everyone and despite what some people might think, I don't do this to build myself up or get some kind of an ego trip out of it.
I get on people's case at church in a really serious way and they may be having a debate behind the scenes about whether to kick me out, for all I know. The point is, it does not make me feel good or superior or anything. It seriously makes me wonder about myself and if I am over the top.

No not at all Dewey, I have never contemplated myself as special. In fact my feelings are reflected in Paul's words at at Ephesians 3:8:

(Ephesians 3:8) . . .To me, a man less than the least of all holy ones, this undeserved kindness was given. . .

If I came across as if anything other than that, for this I deeply apologize. And am thankful you asked me so the confusion could be cleared up. As I stated, I've read many of your posts, and find you a very enlightened person in many of the things you write about. To think I was above you, or anyone else for that matter would be fool-hearty. If you read my profile description, it sums it up quite well. Surely in comparison to you, I have much to learn. It just surprises me sometimes that a scripture that is so clear to me can be something "abhorrent" to someone else that claims to believe in God's word.

In heaven there are different classes of angels, there is the Archangel Michael, there are Cherubs, Seraphs, and Messenger angels. That Jehovah has given to each angel a different rank or assignment in his heavenly family is neither abhorrent or unthinkable to your servant.

Even on earth all life is not equal. There is plant life, then there is animal life, and then there is human life which has been put on a higher plane than all other life on earth.

But the scripture does state:

(Revelation 22:5) . . .Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor [do they have] sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.

When I mediate on the scripture I try to understand God.

What I perceive is that you are sincere but it appears that many of the things that are in the Bible your understanding does not accept. Perhaps it has more to do with putting "the righteousness" of God above our own understanding. For while there may be things he explains to us, that certain ones do not understand we should remember:


(Isaiah 55:9) . . .For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than YOUR ways, and my thoughts than YOUR thoughts.

It would be wrong to ascribe to God personal standards, or conform him to a narrow mental image of how we perceive him to be. And even when we don't understand how a certain scripture works out God's justice or glory, remembering that his ways are not our ways, and his thoughts are high above our own, should help us to remain faithful to him, even when not fully understanding how a certain thing the Bible says is, can be. Perhaps that in itself is a test of our loyalty.

Remember when Jesus told his followers that unless that eat of his flesh and blood they would not enter into the kingdom, many left him because the idea abhorred them. But those loyal to him remained. Perhaps sometimes we run across things in the Bible that are abhorrent to the way our senses are trained, such as the idea that there are those that will put on immortality. But not all who study scripture find it to be an abhorrent idea. And even such, why deny what is written. For it most certainly is truth?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

We are all created as spirit beings, the soul is just one's "mind, will and emotions". Or figuratively called the "heart".

I would consider that to be an opinion. To you, it may be more than that and actually a dogma. I don't see it as being based on the Bible, and probably whatever happened to be the popular theory back when they decided to create some dogma, over in Alexandria or somewhere.
As for heart, it was not meant figuratively, and was understood in a very literal sense.

reply to post by Vicky32
I think it might not be a bad idea to treat people as if that was true, meaning not to treat people like the Jews treated the Samaritans back in Jesus' time.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Make sense? The "real" you and I are not our bodies, they are temporary houses for our eternal soul/spirit.

Not in the least, once you put it that way.
It's kind of like the question, "Did God Create Hell before he created the earth?", or however that saying goes. It's one of those fake quotes attributed to someone famous in the past, like Augustine.
Did God create people to go to Hell and conveniently made his makeup for eternal suffering?
Of course not. Genesis explains it.
The dust and the breath= a living soul
One does not exist without the other.
No provision was made, built in, to deal with the condition of death.
Death was foreign to the original creation as God made it.
So, no "shell" to be temporary. Adam was made to live forever.

reply to post by Calender

What if when Jesus was asked which disciple would sit on which side when he came into his kingdom, he said, "Well, let's see, how much can you do for me? I should probably pick on some to step down a bit, you know, ones who won't make me look so good."
Do you think that improves your spiritual life? Wanting the higher spot.
There are different tiers in this belief systen, where there are 144 thousand, then the true believers, then the ungodly who will have to be ruled over for a thousand years whipping them into shape.
That just doesn't seem right to me.
I suppose you can rationalize it by telling yourself it is more humane than just killing everybody.
That seems like a shuffled around a bit version of zionism to me.
But, like I said, I don't feel threatened by it because you don't take it by force and wait on God.
I'm just concerned about what this could do to you personally.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
No, it states the rich man was in 'Abraham's Bosom". That was the place in the Earth the righteous spirits went to at death. No one was in heaven until Christ died and brought those souls out with him upon resurrection. Now all spirits go to heaven to be with the Lord. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

Well according to various scriptures, the dead don’t talk, think or do anything but sleep. By dead, I mean those who are not alive in Jesus i.e. born again, those who are alive in Christ, go to heaven, while the unrighteous dead on the other hand, don’t do anything except sleep, until they are resurrected on judgment day.

John 11:11
After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I don't know how much you know about physics, but remember Einstein's E=MC2?? Because your soul and spirit have no mass they are not affected by time.

That means they are eternal.

Yes I know a little bit about physics; but for me only God is eternal and the only way for a spirit/soul to be eternal, is by being connected to God in spirit, through Jesus. Anyone who remains cut off from God cannot live spiritually speaking. So I believe after a person is cut off from God, their spirit is no longer connected to the source of life and rather than God leaving them in a state of limbo forever, he will destroy them in “The Lake of Fire”



- JC

Interesting discussion going on. I really don't see how anybody that believes in "Hellfire" can get around Revelation Chapter 20: 13 & 14 as has already been mentioned. I am going to quote it in different translations.

KJV

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

NLT

13The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. 14Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.

NIV

13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Since people equate the lake of fire with hell, how can hell be thrown into itself? Death and hell are not alive, are they? They are a situation, and God is telling us those situations will end with this event.

Notice too from the different translations, Hell=Grave=Hades

Hades

Hades (from Greek ᾍδης, Hadēs, originally Ἅιδης, Haidēs or Άΐδης, Aidēs, probably from Proto-Indo-European *n̥-wid- "the unseen place"
It also is the equivalent of the Latin word infernus which is again translated mistakenly into hell.

In Acts 2 verse 27 Peter quotes Psalms to link Hades and Sheol, so they are the same
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
because you do not abandon my soul to the grave or allow your holy one to decay.

King James Bible
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


Psalm 16 verse 10
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
because you do not abandon my soul to the grave or allow your holy one to decay.

King James Bible
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


Even Jesus spent some time in Hades as shown in Acts 2 verse 31
American Standard Version
he foreseeing this'spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
David knew that the Messiah would come back to life, and he spoke about that before it ever happened. He said that the Messiah wouldn't be left in the grave and that his body wouldn't decay.

King James Bible
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

So Jesus spent time in Hell/Hades/Grave because he actually died, remember his soul had to be terminated for the ransom to be actually valid. If you deny this you are denying the ransom itself, which would mean you can not attain salvation, that is why this point is so critical to all Christians.

People that have died and are in Hell/Grave/Hades/Sheol are not alive, but will be resurrected or recreated by God in the future. People that are in the Lake of Fire or Gehenna are not alive, but their bodies and souls are terminated and non-existent, they are not alive nor will they see life again, they live on only in the sense of eternal infamy, as only a memory as rebels against God.
God is resolving many universal issues right now on our little blue planet we call earth, should they ever come up again, anywhere in the universe either in the spirit realm or physical realm, he will reference the executed dead Satan and all his dead rebels that followed him.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

. . .remember his soul had to be terminated for the ransom to be actually valid.

You end up with a bit of a dilemma.
If Jesus was not a man, he could not die.
If Jesus was a man, his death would not be a valid exchange.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Blue_Jay33

 

. . .remember his soul had to be terminated for the ransom to be actually valid.

You end up with a bit of a dilemma.
If Jesus was not a man, he could not die.
If Jesus was a man, his death would not be a valid exchange.

I don't want to take this off topic, but your point of a valid exchange actually validates the point, Adam was the perfect son of God, Jesus was the perfect son God. While on earth in physical form Jesus was equal to Adam. Before and after his life on earth his ranking in the spirit realm was much higher of course. If you want to discuss the particulars of the ransom make a new thread.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Jesus Christ descended from heaven above. Adam was dust that received breath of life from Jesus Christ at creation.

They were never "equal" by a loooooooong shot.

reply to post by NOTurTypical
There is not a pile of dust somewhere
where you can point to it and say,
"There's what's left from the body of Jesus."
Regardless of his position, being a human
being on Earth, Jesus' status was not
diminished. Jesus only changed by becoming
the head of the church which did not
previously exist.
(I'm writing this as a reply to you but I'm
trying to show some agreement with you
in this particular case)