There is No Eternal Hell Fire

reply to post by Joecroft



"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS." (Matthew 25:41)

"...the devil...shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night..."

Revelation 20:12, 15 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Luke 12:5 "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

Matthew 18:8, 9 "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

II Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh."

Mark 9:44 "... Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Jude 7 "Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Matthew 13:41-42 "The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt."

Luke 16:24 "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Luke 16:24 "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

IMO the verse above is Jesus using a parable to describe the future event of “The Lake of Fire”

In your previous post you mentioned NDE of people experiencing Hell and Fire etc, and my main point was that “The Final Judgment” day hasn’t happened yet and because of that, no one can be in “The Lake of Fire” yet, which reinforces my opinion that the Verse Luke16:24 Jesus is using a parable/analogy describing a future event, so as to warn people. So IMO these NDE of people experiencing fire and Hell can’t be the real thing, although they could be a warning from God, for the person concerned to find and seek the truth.

As for your posted verses, the flames and smoke are everlasting and the punishment is everlasting death and destruction, i.e. they are destroyed forever.
The devil on the other hand is not a man, he is an immortal being, and so I would guess his punishment would be eternal torment.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

I don't think there is a such thing as an immortal being.
At best, there is a conditional immortality.
Only God is immortal.
Jesus could be included, when addressing his god nature.
Satan is a created being and exists by the life giving gift from God.
I think when it says Satan will be destroyed, that is literal and has
a second witness in the Book of Hebrews.

If hell is literal how is it thrown into the lake of fire where death is thrown in as well? How is death thrown into the lake of fire?

Here is something you may not know, the KJV translates various words from the Hebrew and Greek as "hell" and is not consistent in its translation. It translates the Hebrew words Sheol and Hades as hell, but also translates them some places as grave or pit, and once as death.

Sheol is actually mankind's common grave. That is, everyone when they die goes to hell, or to sheol, mankind's common grave.

How is hell done away with? Hell, or Hades, also translated as hell in the KJV is thrown into the lake of fire:


20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. KJV

So we know that the "lake of fire" is the second death. That means there is a first death. Notice that the "lake of fire is death." How is death thrown into a second death? How is hell thrown into death?

All of these ideas are abstract, death is not a person, it is not a tangible thing you can touch or grab onto. Thus these are all symbolic images.

Hell, mankind's common grave is done away with as our last enemy:

(1 Corinthians 15:26) . . .As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.

In this sense hell (hades, mankind's common grave) is thrown into the lake of fire, that is done away with. Death will be no more:

(Revelation 21:4) . . .And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more,. . .


In Jesus' day Gehenna was a well known valley where there was a perpetual fire being burned. There people went to throw things devoted to destruction. The idea of something being completely burned with fire is brought to their mind when being told that those who are to go to the second death are thrown into the fiery Gehenna. The idea of something completly burned with fire gives us the idea of complete destruction. Not that something remains and is burned perpetually.

The first death has no hold on mankind because Jesus has the keys to death, and can free all in that deathlike state back to life. In fact during his kingdom rule over the earth we are told that he will resurrect untold millions or perhaps billions from the first death, hell, mankind's common grave:

(Revelation 20:13) . . .And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha′des [translated Hell in the KJV) gave up those dead in them. . .

Thus the first death is a place where mankind goes to waiting for a resurrection. It is as if they are sleeping, for it is an easy thing for Jesus to wake those up from the dead who are in that state:

"(1 Thessalonians 4:13) . . .Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death. . .


The second death is where one goes to where there is no hope of living again, that is they are completely destroyed, with no remembrance left of them. They will never live ever again.

Now you can see what the symbolic prophecy in Revelation 20 is referring to. Hell, that is death, mankind's common grave is done away with, there will be no more death. People will live forever. They will be thrown into the lake of fire which is representative of the second death, the death from which there is no hope of ever coming back to life.

Now you can see why it is not important to fear people that are able to kill your body, as it is of no importance to loose your life if you remain faithful to God. He will give you life back. What one needs to be worried of is being sentenced to Gehenna, the "lake of fire" the second death, from which there is no resurrection:

(Matthew 10:28) . . .And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge‧hen′na.

As far as the idea of God actually burning people? The idea is so repugnant to God's mind as to be incomprehensible, and those who claim he does such a thing bring great dishonor to his name:

(Jeremiah 7:31) And they have built the high places of To′pheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hin′nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.’

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I don't think there is a such thing as an immortal being.
At best, there is a conditional immortality.
Only God is immortal.
Jesus could be included, when addressing his god nature.
Satan is a created being and exists by the life giving gift from God.
I think when it says Satan will be destroyed, that is literal and has
a second witness in the Book of Hebrews.

You are correct that at one time only God was immortal. For even his son Jesus came to earth and died. If he was immortal he could not have died. But we are told that Jesus when resurrected was given an immortal spirit body. We are also told that those who are adopted as his spiritual brothers, and sons of God when resurrected are also given incorruptible and immortal spirit bodies. True only these few will have immortality but God is no longer the only one with immortality:


(1 Corinthians 15:53-54) . . .For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.”

reply to post by Calender

But we are told that Jesus when resurrected was given an immortal spirit body.

I've gotten into this a couple times with other Jehovah's Witnesses on this forum. I'm a Seventh Day Adventist which I think the JW's borrowed a lot of stuff from. I think only the JW's worry about this subject because they are riding a thin rail when it comes to Jesus' nature. I have a tendency to lean toward Jesus being identical to the classic view of the God in Heaven such as in Renaissance paintings and such. I don't think there is any other god to be looking for with a human like presence. That would be Jesus, and the source, or ultimate power, or the creative mind and All-powerful Spirit, is just that, Pure Spirit and not something even a good person can approach, except Christ Himself who is for all intents and purposes to us, God, and should never be lowered in our estimation because he is the representation of God and the only one we will meet in person.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I'm aware of who you are, but I thank you for taking the time for explaining it to me personally. I disagree with you on this subject, but have found a lot of your other comments usually very enlightening. I also respect your thoughts on the matter of immortality.

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

IMO the verse above is Jesus using a parable to describe the future event of “The Lake of Fire”

No, it states the rich man was in 'Abraham's Bosom". That was the place in the Earth the righteous spirits went to at death. No one was in heaven until Christ died and brought those souls out with him upon resurrection. Now all spirits go to heaven to be with the Lord. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

As for your posted verses, the flames and smoke are everlasting and the punishment is everlasting death and destruction, i.e. they are destroyed forever.
The devil on the other hand is not a man, he is an immortal being, and so I would guess his punishment would be eternal torment.

I don't know how much you know about physics, but remember Einstein's E=MC2?? Because your soul and spirit have no mass they are not affected by time.

That means they are eternal.


- JC

Originally posted by Calender

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I don't think there is a such thing as an immortal being.
At best, there is a conditional immortality.
Only God is immortal.
Jesus could be included, when addressing his god nature.
Satan is a created being and exists by the life giving gift from God.
I think when it says Satan will be destroyed, that is literal and has
a second witness in the Book of Hebrews.

You are correct that at one time only God was immortal. For even his son Jesus came to earth and died. If he was immortal he could not have died. But we are told that Jesus when resurrected was given an immortal spirit body. We are also told that those who are adopted as his spiritual brothers, and sons of God when resurrected are also given incorruptible and immortal spirit bodies. True only these few will have immortality but God is no longer the only one with immortality:


(1 Corinthians 15:53-54) . . .For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.”

Sorry, but the real "you" is not your body, that returns to dust. the body is just a shell to house the soul and spirit which is the real "you".

And because they carry no mass they are not affected by time.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Sorry, but the real "you" is not your body, that returns to dust. the body is just a shell to house the soul and spirit which is the real "you".

And because they carry no mass they are not affected by time.

I apologize, but I don't understand your argument.

reply to post by Calender


It's Physics. E=MC2

The soul/spirit carries no mass.

Only things that carry mass are affected by time.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Ok, I understand that part. What does that have to do with Jesus dying for our sins? Are you saying he really didn't die? I'm not following.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

. . .the soul and spirit which is the real "you".

The soul is the "you".
a soul=a person
The spirit is more like a life force and the seat of the perception of the self.
Once the body perishes the spirit returns to God and the self no longer
exists as a distinct entity.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Nothing to disagree with here dewey. This is the way I understand it from reading the Bible.

-----

I thought I would share a couple of scriptures I thought of as I was pondering your previous response about no one ever being able to see God. A couple of these I have run across a recently in my Bible reading and have meditated on them:


(Isaiah 52:8) . . .In unison they keep crying out joyfully; for it will be eye into eye that they will see when Jehovah gathers back Zion.



(1 Corinthians 13:12) . . .For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. . . .


(Revelation 22:3-4) . . .But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in [the city], and his slaves will render him sacred service; and they will see his face,. . .


(Psalm 17:15) . . .As for me, in righteousness I shall behold your face; I will be satisfied when awakening [to see] your form.


Obiviously when you read the scripture about those of us who are mortal will put on immortality, you don't agree with it. And I don't think it more of a matter of your arguing with JWs about this point, more your disagreement with the Bible, which is understandable, and totally respected.

I believe the above quoted scriptures refer to a class of people who will indeed become immortal, and will indeed see God into his very eyes, as the scriptures state, in their heavenly forms.

Originally posted by Calender
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Ok, I understand that part. What does that have to do with Jesus dying for our sins? Are you saying he really didn't die? I'm not following.

Oh, not at all. I'm saying the real "You" or "Me" cannot be seen in this world, we just see the body, the shell that houses the soul/spirit. The body is just dust and water, it returns to dust. The Soul/spirit are eternal and immortal. If the body dies, the soul/spirit move along to be with the Lord, or eternally separated from Him depending upon one's personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

. . .the soul and spirit which is the real "you".

The soul is the "you".
a soul=a person
The spirit is more like a life force and the seat of the perception of the self.
Once the body perishes the spirit returns to God and the self no longer
exists as a distinct entity.

No, no no. We are a triune being, created in the image of God. The bible speaks differently of the soul and spirit. The separation of the soul and spirit from the body is Earthly death. The further separation of the soul and spirit is called the "second death" by Jesus and occurs for the eternally "lost" at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment.

We are all created as spirit beings, the soul is just one's "mind, will and emotions". Or figuratively called the "heart".

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Calender
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Ok, I understand that part. What does that have to do with Jesus dying for our sins? Are you saying he really didn't die? I'm not following.

Oh, not at all. I'm saying the real "You" or "Me" cannot be seen in this world, we just see the body, the shell that houses the soul/spirit. The body is just dust and water, it returns to dust. The Soul/spirit are eternal and immortal. If the body dies, the soul/spirit move along to be with the Lord, or eternally separated from Him depending upon one's personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Ok, I understand you believe the soul is inherently immortal. Will you please reconcile this belief with the following two scriptures:

The soul that sinneth, it shall die.-Ezekiel 18:4 KJV.

(Matthew 10:28) . . .Be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge‧hen′na. . .

I can't read all the replies since I was last here (time pressures) but I want to put in a plug for Christian Universalism - which is the belief that because of Christ's finished work - all people will eventually find salvation!
Vicky www.tentmaker.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink">www.tentmaker.org...
and also
www.tentmaker.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink">www.tentmaker.org...

reply to post by Calender

Obiviously when you read the scripture about those of us who are mortal will put on immortality, you don't agree with it. And I don't think it more of a matter of your arguing with JWs about this point, more your disagreement with the Bible, which is understandable, and totally respected.

No, the "mortal" we will shed is the Earthly body we now have. We will be resurrected when Christ returns with a new body, an "immortal" body. One that will never perish or suffer corruption "get old/die/decompose". Christ was the firstfruit of the resurrection, we'll all be given an immortal body for eternity.

Only the eternal destination will be different between the lost and the redeemed.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Sorry I was referring that part to Dewy. But after you explain those two scriptures for me (quoted above) please reason if you believe Jesus actually died for our sins, or if he really didn't die because he is immortal, and thus there was no ransom given.