Revelation; Seven kings and an eighth

reply to post by Maigret

I think I would question the assumption that Papal sovereignty began in 1929.
The Popes were sovereign rulers of the Papal States until 1870, when the supporting French garrison was obliged to withdraw (they had other commitments, relating to the Franco-Prussian war) and the Italian state was able to move in.

So the Lateran treaty was not really the commencement of Papal sovereignty, but only the end of an interruption.
That seems to place in question the "sixth ruler" theory.

Editing out after double-checking my reference.

reply to post by Maigret

As a correction to my cancelled post;

You identify the present Pope with the "seventh king". But we are specifically told that the seventh king will remain "only a little while". If the present Pope dies tomorrow, he will still have ruled much longer than his predecessor but one, John Paul I, who fits the description much more strikingly.

So it is not easy to see why the phrase "only a little while" should be applied to this Pope in any pointed way.

i would (in reference to the OP) put the interpretations of Revelation...
5 are fallen, one is, etc in relation to the dream of the great statue of empires given to Nebuchadnezer

and the feet and toes is speaking of the 7 kings , the 8th king taking over 3 other kingdoms to create the empire of the Beast AKA- the 8th King (being one of the Seven)

when the 7 kings (10 toes) of the statue of historical world empires come together in the feet/toes of the statue,
it is said they will share power with the Beast for only an Hour (perhaps 2 weeks)... just as the overview
of the sequence of Kings(Empires) has the 7th king appearing for only a short while
(the 8th King aka: the Beast is the final incarnation of human government empires ruled by the forces and Principalities of the spiritual realm)


the sequences are both about the 7+ thousands of years of civilization
and about the final unification of a 7 headed, 10 horned Beast Kingdom intended to supplant the Millennial Kingdom set up by the Angelic Armies and governed by resurrected Saints from throughout history...


i actually think i've confused the issue more than explained it...but, hey it is the convoluted source material of Holy Books that swing all over the place in meanings from one verse to the next.... that is supposed to be the confirmation & proof that the inspired words came from Deity


ummm
?

reply to post by St Udio

I can't relate the "seven" to the "ten" in the way you suggest, because it seems to me that the "seven kings" and the "ten kings" are two completely different sets of kings.

On the one hand, the narrative in Revelation ch17 makes it clear that the seven kings are coming in succession. Five kings, we note, have already gone. Another one will only last a short time. This is a sequence of rulers, not an alliance of seven simultaneous rulers.

For that reason, I've been inclined to understand the seven heads of the Beast in the same way, as coming in succession. In support of that idea, I would draw attention to the way that people in ch13 do not distinguish between the wounded head of the Beast and the Beast itself. The head recovers, and they marvel at the Beast. It is as if each head of the Beast, in succession, is the current manifestation of the Beast for its own particular era.

On the other hand, the ten kings are plainly simultaneous, with each other and with the Beast. So I would regard them as two completely different groups.

The beast that "comes up from the sea" is the new volcanic island that is about to emerge in the Atlantic ocean, next to the island of El Hierro, in the Canary Islands.

The world is watching in real time this underwater eruption in El Hierro. The sea is bubbling. And an new island will emerge soon.

reply to post by TheGreatRevelation

No, because the "Beast from the sea" in Revelation does a lot of other things besides coming up from the sea.
Volcanic island doesn't meet the criteria.

www.bibleandscience.com...
Institute for Biblical & Scientific Studies
The Bible: Revelation
Written by
Dr. Stephen C. Meyers

^^^ All about Rome and Revelations, pretty much sums up most of it...

Can this be repeated? Could this happen again, and is it happening now?

Julius Caesar (49-44 BC.)
Augustus C.(31 BC-14 AD
Tiberius C. (14-37 AD.)
Caligula C. (37-41 AD)
Claudius C. (41-54 AD)
Nero Caesar (54-68 AD)

Inverse function of historical recurrence?

Carter
Reagan
Bush
Clinton(Assassination of Character, literal for Caligula)
Bush(Passive Pawn, an idiot: Tacitus wrote that about Claudius, and it applies to Bush as well)
(Began the Conquest of America, like that of 'The Conquest of Britian')
Obama (not even going there)

More of a question, than trying to provide correlations, just wondering if people think there's any possibility of it...

Is there any connection between the Neronian Comets, and the 'Comets of Doom' that we have been seeing of late, coinciding with the fall of the stock market and governments around the world? It would seem so to me, especially the stock market aspect. I'm surprised nobody has brought up the Neronian Comets considering all this Comet talk as of late, and Revelations, and people claiming Obama is the anti-christ....

reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS

I know your suggestion is very tentative, but...

What is the rationale for beginning the sequence with Carter (apart from those rather thin correlations in the middle of the sequence)?
How much correlation is there between Obama and the persecutor Nero?

It would make the Beast the second President after Obama.

Further thoughts;
Caesar was the starting point of a new dynasty
Carter actually makes a very unconvincing substitute for Julius Caesar, in any respect.

If you're going to link "the conquest of America" with the conquest of Britain, it would be better to identify Bush with Caesar, calling him the initiator.

reply to post by DISRAELI


The Lateran Treaty in 1929 created the smallest country or city-state in the world known as the Vatican City. It has its own banks, post offices, radio, etc. There were no papal kings of this specific country before that. One of the Papal titles is 'Sovereign of Vatican City State'.
And if you count the kings, we are in the reign of the seventh. This revelation came out during the reign of the sixth head/king, Pope John Paul II.

reply to post by DISRAELI


How long is 'a little while'? The current Pope is in failing health... so it shouldn't be much longer and then we will be able to see what happens.

reply to post by St Udio


I understand that the ten toes of the Image are the ten kingdoms that will unite under the secular power base of the clay feet (which is a different substance from the rest of the Image).

After Armageddon, where all the existing ten leaders of those kingdoms will have been killed, they will be replaced almost automatically by the vice-president or next in succession to the throne, etc.

With Armageddon being over, the ten 'new' leaders will have realised how their predecessors and they have been deceived and will turn on this secular power-base [Beast/body - as in body of Christ - of the Antichrist] and destroy it in one short hour.

The ten horns of the fourth terrible Beast of Daniel, where three are plucked by the Little Horn, leaves seven hrons and the Little Horn is the eighth and of the seven, so to speak. The three being plucked are the main potential contenders for election to the Papal throne.

This could be considered as confirmed by the dragon [Satan] having seven heads with diadems, and ten horns; which I translate as the seven are directly under Satan, including the eighth. Rev 12:3

The Beast from the Sea is described as having seven heads [and he is the eighth and of the seven], is also under Satan's direct control and ten crowned horns, which are the ten kingdoms / toes of the Image which are under the direct control of this Beast from the Sea. Rev 13:1

The Little Horn in Dan 7:8 is described in Dan 7:25 as:
a/ Speaking blasphemies [pompous words]
b/ Persecuting and shattering the power of the Saints
c/ For a period of three and a half years.

The Beast from the Sea is described in Rev 13:5-7 as:
a/ Speaking great things and blasphemies
b/ Making war against the saints and overcoming them
c/ for a period of 42 months

This is exactly how long the Tribulation will last - 3.5 years, which is 42 months, which is 180 weeks, which is 1,260 days going on a prophetic year of 360 days.

The Two Witnesses will stand at the Temple for 42 months while the Gentiles [pagans] trample the courtyard for 1,260 days - i.e. for the duration of the Tribulation.

reply to post by Maigret

The reign of John Paul I was so famously, conspicuously, short, that it would seem rather odd to use the phrase "a little while" about one that has already lasted six years.

The original Papal States had existed since the Middle Ages. They had their own banks and postal service, and would have had radio if it had been invented. The Popes never accepted the liquidation of that state in 1870, and presumably regard the present Vatican state as a continuation of it.

Let me observe, also, that the Vatican state does not actually sit on the seven hills of Rome, nor does it sit even on one of them. It's on the wrong side of the river altogether. All seven hills are within the territory of the Italian republic.

Originally posted by Maigret
With Armageddon being over, the ten 'new' leaders will have realised how their predecessors and they have been deceived and will turn on this secular power-base [Beast/body - as in body of Christ - of the Antichrist] and destroy it in one short hour.

You need to read Revelation ch17 v16 a little more carefully. It does not say that the ten kings turn on the Beast.
It says that the ten kings together with the Beast turn on the Harlot.
And the "one hour" is the period when the ten kings and the Beast are reigning jointly.

Also, at this point, the battle of Armageddon has not taken place.
Read ch16 again; yes, they assemble for battle, but no fighting takes place until ch19.
The battle of Armageddon coincides with the Return of Christ in ch19. In fact, they are the same thing.
On this point see;
The roads to Armageddon
Victory and Judgement

reply to post by DISRAELI


You may well be technically right in your observations, *grin* but I don't think that makes me wrong. There are too many other clues that fit.

We'll only know when the next Pope emerges - if it's Judas Icariot (was alive, is not alive, but will be present, mortal wound, etc.) posing as 'Jesus Christ at his second coming', then I'm not wrong and you're still right.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Sorry, Disraeli, my mistake. They don't turn on the Beast but on the whore of Babylon who rides the Scarlet Beast.

Rev 17:16 does not say that 'the Beast that was, is not and yet shall be present' will turn WITH the Ten, because this Beast will have been captured at Armageddon, along with the False Prophet and cast alive into the lake of fire. Rev 19:20

Armageddon is where 'they will make war with the Lamb...' Revelation 17 - Verse 14, so the battle is already over..

The prostitute woman who rides the Scarlet Beast which the Ten horns turn on 'is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth'. Rev 17:18. As I understand it, this city is what will be destroyed in one short hour.

Rev 19:14 is where the Messiah returns with his army to fight Armageddon, yes, I agree with you there. It is his return that makes the deception of Satan, the Antichrist and the False Prophet so obvious, which is the whole reason why the Ten turn on the Whore. His return is also the 'stone cut without hand' striking the Image of Daniel that will cause all religious nations to just fall apart.

Rev19:17-21 speaks of the aftermath, where the vultures and eagles feed on the flesh of the fallen, which is what the Son refers to in Matthew 24:27 being his return and then he speaks of the 'feast of the birds' in the following verse. The very next verse indicates it is AFTER the Tribulation.

I am going to read those posts - 'Roads to Armageddon' and 'Victory and Judgement' and I'll get back to you. However, this won't be tonight, because it's the early hours of the morning here.

reply to post by Maigret

On the sequence of events in Revelation ch17, which is admittedly not easy to disentangle;

Let me observe that vv12-14 are explaining the ten kings, and vv 15-18 are explaining the woman, so they are really running in parallel rather than in sequence.
So we can't assume that something mentioned in the second paragraph comes after what is mentioned in the first.
We certainly learn from vv16-17 that the ten horns which attack the Harlot are the same ones which have previously given their allegiance to the Beast. So I see no reason why the events of vv16-17 cannot take place before the final conquest mentioned in v14.
What we've got here is a case of "thieves falling out". Beast and Harlot are close allies at the beginning of the chapter, at the end the first is destroying the second. The wording is clear; "They and the Beast will hate the Harlot; they will make her desolate and naked and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire".

Let me respectfully point out that it is necessary to know who the Antichrist is and the overall situation, then it makes it easier to know how to read these verses and in what order. Revelation & Daniel are two of the clearest books of the Bible on future prophecy and they don't relate to ancient history but to our immediate future.

Understanding prophecy would also make clear whether the seven hills are Rome, Jerusalem or some other place. It's easy to say the seven hills don't technically fit Rome/the Vatican, but the other clues do point to, and fit, this city, such as it ruling over [Catholic] sovereigns of other countries, etc. Jerusalem doesn't have a king or throne which the Vatican does have, and Satan gives the Antichrist his THRONE, authority and power.

The appearance of Jesus Christ (aka Judas Iscariot - Satan's resurrected 'son of perdition' & 'man of sin') from the next papal conclave would unite all of Christianity, Catholic, Greek/Eastern Orthodox, Protestants, etc. under him and he would thus rule religious kingdoms and as a Sovereign KING of the Vatican City he would also be on par with rulers of other non-Christian secular nations. So he would have religious and political power. The political power stems from the Lateran Treaty signed in 1929 which made the Pope a 'secular' king of an independent country.

So anyone who knows this is a false christ and refuses to worship him or any one of his many images, will be hated and killed by the extremist elements of that union. This is the reason for, and time of, the Tribulation. This is also the division between even the closest of family members; those who are deceived and those who aren't.

The situation in the world at that time, which will be worldwide natural disasters, leading to the breakdown of civilisation and in turn, causing famine and diseases. To ensure a fair and proper allocation of housing, food and medicines, the mark of the beast will be instituted. Anyone refusing this mark will not have access to these things and will be regarded as outlaws who are hostile to fair and equal distribution, the general well-being of society and flaunting their godlessness.

If the ten toes/horns are the leaders of ten Christian countries like America, Britain, Australia, etc. giving political and religious allegiance to Judas Iscariot posing as 'Jesus Christ at his second coming', and sending their troops to fight at Armageddon, how do you think they'd feel when the arrival of the true Messiah clearly displays how they have all been deceived? Also consider the limited options that would remain, of where and how they would be able to vent their anger.

reply to post by Maigret

Let's think of this in Revelation terms, since "the Antichrist" is not a title found in Revelation.

Are you identifying this prospective figure with the Beast?
And if so, what is your identification of the Harlot?

reply to post by DISRAELI


I agree that the term Antichrist is not to be found in Revelation, but the more you read and understand Revelation the more references to the Old and New Testaments you'll find in it, so it is not a writing that is self-contained.

The term 'Antichrist' fits the combined nature and purpose of the 'Little Horn' and 'Abomination of Desolation' of Daniel, 'The Beast from the Sea' and the 'Eighth Head' of Revelation, the 'Son of Perdition' of Thessalonians and the 'Antichrist' of 1 John.

Right from the early days, the Catholic Church which was a member of the Greek/Eastern Orthodox Church until around 1,000 AD, has been declaring its supremacy over all the other Christian churches, which it does even now, unwittingly promoting the cause of the Antichrist and setting the people of the world up for this great deception. So the 'spirit of the Antichrist' was already evident and in progress even way back then.

The woman described in Revelation 17 is identified in verse 18 as 'that great [Vatican] city that reigns over the kings of the earth'.

The scarlet beast is the body of this church and is composed of all the individual people who are members of the body; in imitation of the true body/church of the Messiah. This will include those who unite within this body in the times to come.

Does this help to clarify?