Neo-Nazis Rally For Arizona Immigration Law

reply to post by whatukno

I think I understand,

How quaint.

To you, it seems, that it's just fine for police and other citizens to harass these people.

Any lawful encounter with an officer gives that officer permission to establish your identity. Refusal to provide identity is grounds to question your legitimacy to be in the country. This is going to be especially true in border states, where the probability of -anyone- being there illicitly is far greater than states that are not share borders with other nations.

But I disagree with your stance on this issue, I think that it is possible for people to come up from south of the border and immigrate here legally, and become citizens, I am certain that it does happen.

........

Do you possess the ability to read, at all? Where have I said it is not possible?

It is possible - and it does happen. People who immigrate to this country -legally- and become citizens are not uncommon. They are issued identity cards for the express purpose of demonstrating to law enforcement that they are here legally and have the rights and privileges of a U.S. Citizen.

You, however, don't seem to understand that there are a great many who come here -without- undergoing this legal process. Whether their intentions are well or illicit - they knowingly break the law in coming here, and it has become an avenue many drug cartels have exploited, as well as many legitimate businesses.

And, I believe, that when those people immigrate here legally, they should be afforded all the rights and protections under the law as any white person enjoys.

They are. They are awarded more, because the government recognizes them as a minority race that qualifies them for various financial aid programs that people of majority ethnic backgrounds will be unable to qualify for.

That being said, I think that people are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and I don't think it's right to arrest American Citizens, putting them in an INS Detention facility for months or years until someone can get around to figuring out if they are here legally or not.

This is not what will happen. I have explained this repeatedly, and you seem to be incapable of understanding or simply unwilling to consider it. You are a legal citizen. There are records that exist on you in law enforcement databases that are accessible nation-wide by law enforcement agencies. Every person born or entering into this country legally is entered into this database - many non-citizens and non-residents exist in this database (visiting foreign nationals). If you entered this country legally through a point of entry, or were born here under legal pretense, you exist in these databases and can be verified to be legally within your right to be here almost instantly from any police station.

If an officer is unable to verify your citizenship in the field, it will be verified at the station before the officer has a chance to pour himself a cup of coffee. In most cases, the ID could be verified via dispatch and not require more than hanging out with an officer for two extra minutes.

www.ncsl.org...

That is an overview of the law, comparable laws and ordinances in effect elsewhere in the nation, and the cited federal laws.

Not that I expect you to do much better with reading comprehension, there, but - old habits die hard.

reply to post by Aim64C

Any lawful encounter with an officer gives that officer permission to establish your identity. Refusal to provide identity is grounds to question your legitimacy to be in the country. This is going to be especially true in border states, where the probability of -anyone- being there illicitly is far greater than states that are not share borders with other nations.

First off, the officer must demonstrate that the encounter is a valid one. Doing this, he must state why he is stopping you, remember, not everyone that is stopped by the police are in their vehicles, some people actually walk around outside of cars amazingly enough. See, fortunately for us in the United States, we don't actually have to have papers to walk around. You don't have to have a "walking license" and you don't have to have your ID on you at all times, despite what people tell you, this isn't supposed to be a fascist state, and we don't have to have identification, this is why police "Ask" you for identification, they ask you because they don't actually have a legal right to TELL you to give them your identification. The only time that you are REQUIRED to provide identification is when you are being arrested.

See if you refuse to give the police your identification, they can detain you for 72 hours without charge, during this time you can in fact refuse to submit to them, refuse to give them identification and if they don't have anything to pin on you, they must let you go. It's a pain in the ass, and most people instead of standing up for their rights choose voluntarily to submit to the police.

But no, unless the police have an charge they can pin on you, you don't have to give them any information. And even if they have something they can pin on you, you can still refuse to give them any information. You have the right to remain silent. You can get a lawyer to protect these rights if you cannot defend them adequately yourself.

This forces the police to actually get a warrant to get even your identification. Like I said, amazingly enough, not everyone always is in their vehicles.

They are issued identity cards for the express purpose of demonstrating to law enforcement that they are here legally and have the rights and privileges of a U.S. Citizen.

NO, they are issued those identification cards to demonstrate to employers that they have the ability to work in this country legally, they are issued those cards to give to people with a right to request them, they are NOT given those cards so they can satisfy Sheriff Joe when he comes around with his Gestapo agents.

You, however, don't seem to understand that there are a great many who come here -without- undergoing this legal process. Whether their intentions are well or illicit - they knowingly break the law in coming here, and it has become an avenue many drug cartels have exploited, as well as many legitimate businesses.

I don't care about illegals, they are here illegally, obviously the law doesn't affect them, I could really care less what law enforcement does with illegals. Not all people that come from south of the border are illegal however, and that is what I am concerned with. I am concerned with people that come here legally and having to deal with harassment by law enforcement because of their skin color and ethnic heritage, this is why this law is wrong.

This is not what will happen. I have explained this repeatedly, and you seem to be incapable of understanding or simply unwilling to consider it. You are a legal citizen. There are records that exist on you in law enforcement databases that are accessible nation-wide by law enforcement agencies. Every person born or entering into this country legally is entered into this database - many non-citizens and non-residents exist in this database (visiting foreign nationals). If you entered this country legally through a point of entry, or were born here under legal pretense, you exist in these databases and can be verified to be legally within your right to be here almost instantly from any police station.

No it won't happen like that, this is why Sheriff Joe is creating posse's to go after "illegals" (I use that as the new racial epithet that it is currently used to describe anyone of Hispanic or Latino origin regardless of their actual citizenship status) it's to detain them, send them to INS Detention centers to be "processed" eventually there will be a backlog of people who have to be "checked" and this will soon start taking months and even years, all the while legal citizens will rot in these jails.

They wouldn't need these posse's if it were an instantaneous check.

Like I said, I am concerned with the legal citizens of this country, the people that are going to be unfairly hunted down, possibly killed, by overzealous nuts.

Originally posted by whatukno
this will soon start taking months and even years, all the while legal citizens will rot in these jails.

If you are saying that legal citizens of the United States will be "rotting in jail" for "months and years", this levels up with the person on your avatar and her "death panels".

Just unbelievable.

reply to post by Aim64C

Any lawful encounter with an officer gives that officer permission to establish your identity. Refusal to provide identity is grounds to question your legitimacy to be in the country. This is going to be especially true in border states, where the probability of -anyone- being there illicitly is far greater than states that are not share borders with other nations.

So anytime you meet an officer, you need to provide ID? And if you do not carry ID with you at all times (real or fake) it is grounds to believe you are an illegal immigrant? What is a lawful encounter? Do you mean an encounter where you are suspected of a crime, or an encounter where you are considered a law-abiding citizen? What constitutes a non-lawful encounter with an officer?

reply to post by buddhasystem


People already wait years in this country in jail awaiting trial. These are regular citizens, now, imagine if these laws come into effect, and they flood INS courts with people. You not only will have the flood of illegals who will be waiting in these jails for trial, but you will also have US Citizens awaiting trial too.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap

So anytime you meet an officer, you need to provide ID? And if you do not carry ID with you at all times (real or fake) it is grounds to believe you are an illegal immigrant? What is a lawful encounter? Do you mean an encounter where you are suspected of a crime, or an encounter where you are considered a law-abiding citizen? What constitutes a non-lawful encounter with an officer?

Strong opinions from someone so uninformed and clueless.

There are casual encounters with a police officer. This is where you acknowledge each other as existing and say hello to each other - comment on the weather, traffic, etc - the law is not being enforced in a casual encounter.

A lawful encounter is any encounter in which an officer is evoking law.

The Arizona house bill HB 2162 defines that an officer can only draw reasonable suspicion of an individual being a non-citizen from a lawful encounter. For example - if I am an officer, I could not walk up to you and say "I think you're an illegal migrant, so I need to see some ID." However, if I stop you for breaking a law, and you refuse to provide ID - that is reasonable grounds for suspecting your citizenship status.

National law prescribes that all legal migrants and visitors keep a copy of their proof of immigration status with them at all times. This is a card for legal immigrant residents and citizens, and a stamped pass-port for visiting foreign nationals. All states require that you have your motor-vehicle operators license with you at all times while operating a vehicle (the majority of lawful encounters). HB 2162 and SB 1070 do elaborate on this and say that failing to provide ID is only grounds for suspicion in cases where an ID is normally required.

The law also states that anyone arrested for any offense is to have their citizenship status investigated.

This bill is only about three pages long and everyone has such a huge problem with it. Yet they laud a 3000 page-long string of nearly unintelligible legal-babble being passed through the National Congress. *sigh*

reply to post by whatukno

See, fortunately for us in the United States, we don't actually have to have papers to walk around. You don't have to have a "walking license" and you don't have to have your ID on you at all times, despite what people tell you, this isn't supposed to be a fascist state, and we don't have to have identification, this is why police "Ask" you for identification, they ask you because they don't actually have a legal right to TELL you to give them your identification.

This is true. And they have the legal right to arrest you and find out who you are, under certain circumstances.

During a lawful encounter - you are required to provide some form of ID to an officer if he/she asks for it. During a lawful encounter, you have been observed breaking a law. It is necessary for the State to file an accurate report that a fine has been issued (as far as the law is concerned, the officer does not have the right to discretionary enforcement - everyone who breaks the law is to be fined - period). You are issued a fine and given a period of time in which to appear in court for that fine. It is, thus, necessary for anyone involved in a legal encounter with an officer to provide ID for the proper function of the legal system and assurance of your legal rights to a fair trial.

Be observed breaking the law by an officer - and a search for your ID is reasonable.

See if you refuse to give the police your identification, they can detain you for 72 hours without charge, during this time you can in fact refuse to submit to them, refuse to give them identification and if they don't have anything to pin on you, they must let you go.

You are free to think that. It's simply not true. An officer observed you breaking the law and what you are now doing is an obstruction of Justice by impeding the start and function of a fair legal trial. The trial is where you are presumed innocent and all charges levied against you can be resolved. Until then, you're just racking up charges.

But no, unless the police have an charge they can pin on you, you don't have to give them any information.

Sounds like a lawful encounter, to me.

And even if they have something they can pin on you, you can still refuse to give them any information. You have the right to remain silent.

But not the right to anonymity. There is a difference. The right to remain silent is the idea that one is protected from self-incrimination and has the right to professional legal advice when answering police and trial questioning. Stating who you are and providing identification for state and court records is not self-incriminating.

This forces the police to actually get a warrant to get even your identification.

No, it really doesn't. However, they can throw your ass in jail and wait until the judge is done with lunch the next day to ask for a warrant.

NO, they are issued those identification cards to demonstrate to employers that they have the ability to work in this country legally, they are issued those cards to give to people with a right to request them, they are NOT given those cards so they can satisfy Sheriff Joe when he comes around with his Gestapo agents.

Sorry, buddy. The National Law says otherwise:

law.onecle.com...

(e) Personal possession of registration or receipt card; penalties
Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times
carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate
of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to
him pursuant to subsection (d) of this section. Any alien who fails
to comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of
a misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined
not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or
both.

I have posted that before, and you ignored it. It says there - black and white - in the national law, to have that # with you at all times or you'll be put in prison for up to 30 days and/or fined up to $100.

Your employer argument doesn't make sense if you're required to have it at all times.

Also, section A expressly disagrees with you:

(a) Preparation; contents
The Attorney General and the Secretary of State jointly are
authorized and directed to prepare forms for the registration of
aliens under section 1301 of this title, and the Attorney General
is authorized and directed to prepare forms for the registration
and fingerprinting of aliens under section 1302 of this title. Such
forms shall contain inquiries with respect to (1) the date and
place of entry of the alien into the United States; (2) activities
in which he has been and intends to be engaged; (3) the length of
time he expects to remain in the United States; (4) the police and
criminal record, if any, of such alien; and (5) such additional
matters as may be prescribed.

It's not for your employer. It's for law enforcement and international relations purposes.

Have you ever stopped to consider what would happen if people visiting from other nations were to be injured and require hospitalization (but be unconscious)? Who knows who they are? If they are not a U.S. Citizen, how do we know to inform that nation's embassy so that family may be notified? If they are in a bar when the whole place gets busted for drugs or violence, and he's sitting in a cell somewhere (guilty or not) - how does his embassy know where he is? How do the local authorities know to deal with him?

Granted - a lot of that can be compensated for, now, with computers - but a card saying: "I belong here, I'm not being ignorant, so don't be ignorant with me" tends to smooth things over.

It's not, yet, a requirement to carry ID on you if you're just out and about. In either case - it's not a bad idea to carry ID on you.

Not all people that come from south of the border are illegal however, and that is what I am concerned with. I am concerned with people that come here legally and having to deal with harassment by law enforcement because of their skin color and ethnic heritage, this is why this law is wrong.

senatebill1070.com...

B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON, EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY PERSON WHO IS ARRESTED SHALL HAVE THE PERSON’S IMMIGRATION STATUS DETERMINED BEFORE THE PERSON IS RELEASED. THE PERSON’S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR ARIZONA CONSTITUTION. A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:

1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE. 2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE. 3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL

IDENTIFICATION. 4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES

BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.

Emphasis, my own.

In case you're unfamiliar - that is the exact wording of the law.

No it won't happen like that

Since you're pulling the race card a lot - I'll pull my military ID and say I'm the authority on government procedures.

it's to detain them, send them to INS Detention centers to be "processed" eventually there will be a backlog of people who have to be "checked" and this will soon start taking months and even years, all the while legal citizens will rot in these jails.

Observing people crossing the border illegally and/or purchasing false documents is well within the prescriptions of this law. Further - deportation is not backlogged, nor will it become this way. The bill also sets a maximum amount of time someone can be detained in state custody.

They wouldn't need these posse's if it were an instantaneous check.

You have to catch an illegal migrant doing something illegal before their illegal migrant status becomes a subject. That requires manpower.

Like I said, I am concerned with the legal citizens of this country, the people that are going to be unfairly hunted down, possibly killed, by overzealous nuts.

Tell you what - you seal off the border, and I'll run out of potentially illegal people to shoot at much quicker. Hell, if you're going to portray me as a nazi regardless of what I try and say - I may as well be one and just get the damned job done so we can move on to the next problem.

THIS is what pisses me off about civilians. So afraid to make the wrong decision that they don't make any at all, and we just sit in a ship full of holes with no direction.

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

People already wait years in this country in jail awaiting trial.

Are they waiting because their identity cannot be established???

Originally posted by whatukno
If you are driving erratically, then yes, the police have the duty to find out why.

Aha. Guess what, every traffic stop may be attributed to "erratic driving" (same root as "error"). Ran the red light? Erratic! Was speeding? Erratic! Let's find out why! Maybe there is pot in the glove compartment, or else... Seriously.

So that traffic stop analogy of your doesn't work at all. The police will search your car legally if they care. God forbid you have bloodshot eyes or something.