Neo-Nazis Rally For Arizona Immigration Law

reply to post by Aim64C

You speak of rights and yet you have no clue what they actually mean. You speak of rights held by citizens - and, yet, illegal residents do not have citizenship rights. It would, therefor, be very important to be sure you can verify your status as a citizen if you wish to cite these rights that you are entitled to.

LEGAL IMMIGRANTS HAVE RIGHTS!

People that come here legally have freaking rights, don't you understand? They have every right you or I have, you don't have to have your freaking papers on you at all times, this isn't Nazi Germany, If you are a citizen of this country, you have every freaking right that a person that is born here has, this is my argument.

But you have made it clear that you don't care if they came here legally or not, you have made it abundantly clear that because they are Latino, to you, it doesn't matter if they were born here, or immigrated legally, to you they are illegal because that is the new racial epithet that you can use against anyone with brown skin.

To you, these people, these American Citizens have no rights because of the color of their skin.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


bottom line, no racist views involved, they are here illegally. if we just let everyone come in with no penalties then our country becomes weaker. people in other countries who want to hurt us know its a weakness of ours and know they can sneak whoever and whatever they want in here. if u dont want to lose your power as a country, do a better job of at least making it look like we can keep you out.

reply to post by buddhasystem


I was making a simple point. There are no community rights enshrined in the constitution, but there are individual rights enshrined there. Unless you have a good argument to justify community rights based on the constitution, the rights of the individual will trump the right of the community to be healthy. This is the essence of a legal society.

reply to post by Aim64C

Have you lived here longer than seven years?

That should answer your question.

I genuinely do not understand this statement. Do people become citizens after residing in America for seven years, even if they are there illegally?

poisoning the pot, "the nazis support it it must be evil" sorry not a convincing argument to allow illegal aliens more rights than American citizens.

reply to post by whatukno


Yes they do have rights. As citizens, formerly from Mexico, they have a duty to show their proper ID during this time of crisis. This is indeed a national crisis. No one is saying to lock up brown ppl, but that's what you seem to be hearing. The United States is having problems with illigal immigrants from Mexico. Therefore, the object of police and patrolmen will be...................Mexicans. What is so hard to understand about that? You keep using the word harrassment. What harrassment? If said individual is legal and within their rights, then there is no problem at all. It has nothing to do with whites vs brown ppl. It has to do with Mexicans being within the US illegally.

If the United States had an immigration problem with neighboring France, then yeah, police would be instructed to ask for papers from white ppl too, but that's not the case. I don't think it's accurate to place this issue soley in the realm of "picking on minorites". The issue is hard to begin with. It also has to be dealt with. Everyone in this country has to abide by its laws. I do not complain when cops break my balls. That's what cops do. If Arozona cops break a Mexican's balls; it's because the situation calls for it. That is just reality. It isn't as if cops are seeing legal brown guys and arbitrarily detaining them for hours on end. They're investigating illegal activity and requesting proper citizenship upon questioning. (Any legal immigrant should be mindful of this and have it with them). Do you not drive without your proper license? It's your priveledge and you carry your license. It's their privilege and they must carry their ID. It's simple. No one is dropping a hammer. They're calling for law enforcement.

Again, if a Mexican American is a legal citizen, he doesn't need you to argue his 4th amendment rights. He needs his ID.

reply to post by spinalremain


"Citizens should voluntarily waive their constitutional rights when there is a vaguely defined national crisis." That's what you said!

It doesn't surprise me that there are so many fascists in America that don't know what they are. It disappoints me.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


I am by no means a fascist lol.

I am merely trying to point out that enforcing the law shouldn't be avoided under a veil of racism. And no, I did not say that. What I said was "This crisis has to be dealt with." I feel that asking for proper identification during the height of illegal immigration is more than applicable. To not do so would be idiotic and catastrophic. We can have the laws without bringing up the 12 years of Nazi Germany. You only use that as a tool. No one is condoning the political views or the legal practices of the NSDAP or the Gestapo for crying out loud.

Better yet, what is your solution to the problem of immigration within the state of Arizona?

reply to post by spinalremain


Despite what Sean Hannity tells you on FOX News, this isn't a "crisis" at all.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~ Benjamin Franklin.

See, Fascists want these kinds of laws to go through, they want Latinos out of the country, laws like this are drafted by white nationalist groups and lobbied through State governments. Look up what lobby groups are supporting these bills, you will see groups like FAIR, and The Pioneer Fund, and people like John Tanton.

Harassing legal citizens because of a fear of "Illegals" (the PC racial epithet of the day) is not right. I don't care what is done to people who come here illegally, for all I care you could build a 30 foot tall wall at the boarder with gun nests. But if a person comes to this country legally, and is detained on the charge that they are here illegally even for one second, that is wrong, it is in my eyes criminal, fascist, and abhorrent.

If I am walking down the street one day and a police officer demands to see my ID he better have a damn good reason for it or he is not getting it. I have protections under the US Constitution and I will not give those up. I won't ask that people who come to this country legally, have done everything right and have become citizens of this country to live under less freedoms than I have.

reply to post by spinalremain


When you place collective security before individual rights, you are a fascist. It's nothing to be ashamed of. It's just a fact.

I don't think that there is a "solution" to the "problem" of immigration in Arizona. For one thing, Arizona is land that was seized from Mexico after the Mexican-American War. It is Mexican land that they were forced to surrender to the United States of America. Mexicans and other Latin Americans have been migrating into the northern Mexican territories for centuries.

Secondly, I doubt whether illegal immigrants are "stealing" jobs. They are coming from countries with weak labour union cultures. Unlike the average American, they do not have a great sense of entitlement to benefits and high wages and pensions. Certainly, they would like to have such things, but they are much more willing to compromise about them than Americans. They are willing to work for less, they are willing to work more, and they are willing to do more dangerous and degrading jobs than the average American worker. This makes them suitable for jobs that Americans do not take and it creates a market of cheap labour; this availability of cheap labour creates jobs. A job is not like an office, it is a task that is assigned to you with the promise of some recompense. Illegal immigrants are willing to do tasks that American workers are not willing to do and employers offer to pay them. Thus, unofficial jobs are created.

Third, I do not think that the legal attacks on illegal immigrants will work. They cannot be enforced without arousing the ire of the People by unjustly discriminating against Hispanics. The legal challenges to these laws will succeed in the end.

Fourth, the influx of illegal Latin American immigrants, combined with the 14th Amendment, means that the southern states will become increasingly "Mexican." The children of migrants that are born in Arizona will be American citizens. They, or their children, or their grandchildren, will grow up to be strong patriots. They will be patriotic towards both the USA and the United States of Mexico. They will increasingly support open borders and closer cultural contact between Mexico and the Mexican territories seized by the USA. They will increasingly support Latin American cultural initiatives within the USA. They will work towards a synthesis of USA and USM cultures. Eventually, the borders will disappear and the North American Union will appear.

Obviously, all four of these processes are already underway. Latin American migration waves are breaking down the boundaries between the nations of North America. In time, 'illegal immigration' will become a non-issue.

Oh, boy.

reply to post by whatukno

LEGAL IMMIGRANTS HAVE RIGHTS!

All the more reason to be capable of verifying you are a legal citizen.

People that come here legally have freaking rights, don't you understand? They have every right you or I have, you don't have to have your freaking papers on you at all times, this isn't Nazi Germany, If you are a citizen of this country, you have every freaking right that a person that is born here has, this is my argument.

And you don't seem to understand that there are no "papers." It's called an ID card. It is made of plastic, about the size of a credit card - or your cell phone, if you fail to understand what an ID card is. When you become a citizen - you are instructed to have that ID with you at all times.

Failure to comply with a reasonable request can result in longer-than-necessary encounters with law enforcement. Just like driving without my license is.

But you have made it clear that you don't care if they came here legally or not, you have made it abundantly clear that because they are Latino, to you, it doesn't matter if they were born here, or immigrated legally, to you they are illegal because that is the new racial epithet that you can use against anyone with brown skin.

I have made it clear that if you are a citizen of this country, it is your responsibility to have a legal form of ID on you at all times that establishes you as a citizen. Failure to comply places you at the discretion of individual police officers and the search function on law enforcement databases. Any inconvenience you encounter due to your failure to comply is unfortunate, but completely and totally avoidable.

You are bringing race into the issue where there is no racial issue. As I have said - yes, 80% of the illegal population in Arizona is Latino. There is nothing you or I can do about the fact that Mexico is primarily made up of Latinos, and Arizona shares a border with Mexico and not with France, Japan, or some other country of homogeneous ethnicity.

To you, these people, these American Citizens have no rights because of the color of their skin.

You are either a troll, or horribly lacking in both reading comprehension and sanity. I'm leaning towards that last one.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap

I genuinely do not understand this statement. Do people become citizens after residing in America for seven years, even if they are there illegally?

I stand, corrected - it's five years.

en.wikipedia.org...

The Supreme Court has never explicitly ruled on whether children born in the United States to illegal immigrant parents are entitled to birthright citizenship via the 14th Amendment,[5] although it has generally been assumed that they are.[6] A birth certificate (a.k.a Certificate of Live Birth for children born in certain states) issued by a U.S. state or territorial government is evidence of citizenship, and is usually accepted as proof of citizenship.

In the case of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898), the Supreme Court ruled that a person becomes a citizen of the United States at the time of birth, by virtue of the first clause of the 14th amendment of the Constitution, if that person is:

* Born in the United States
* Has parents that are subjects of a foreign power, but not in any diplomatic or official capacity of that foreign power
* Has parents that have permanent domicile and residence in the United States
* Has parents that are in the United States for business

Therefor, you are a citizen - if by no other merit than you were issued a U.S./state birth certificate.

To become a naturalized United States citizen, one must be at least eighteen years of age at the time of filing, a legal permanent resident of the United States, and have had a status of a legal permanent resident in the United States for five years less 90 days before they apply (this requirement is reduced to three years less 90 days if they (a) acquired legal permanent resident status, (b) have been married to and living with a citizen for the past three years and (c) the spouse has been a U.S. citizen for at least three years prior to the applicant applying for naturalization.) They must have been physically present for at least 30 months of 60 months prior to the date of filing their application. Also during those 60 months if the legal permanent resident was outside of the U.S. for a continuous period of 6 months or more they are disqualified from naturalizing (certain exceptions apply for those continuous periods of six months to 1 year). They must be a "person of good moral character", and must pass a test on United States history and government[8][9] Most applicants must also have a working knowledge of the English language.[8] There are exceptions, introduced in 1990, for long-resident older applicants and those with mental or physical disabilities.[10][11] This requirement for an ability to read, write, and speak English is not regarded[who?] as too difficult,[clarification needed] since the test requires that applicants read and write in English.

And this is where I got the seven years from, though I was mistaken and it is five.

When you place collective security before individual rights, you are a fascist. It's nothing to be ashamed of. It's just a fact.

Fascism is the unification of business/corporate interests and government interests. It has nothing to do with social rights anymore than democracy does.

Further - there is a difference between individual rights and common sense. You cannot have a country if you let people do whatever the hell they want, or wander in and out from any country they so please. It just donut work.

There's a line in the sand. Cross it, and you need a reason to be there and an authority to approve you access. This is not "collective security before individual rights" - you have the right to be an American enjoying the benefits of being an American.

don't think that there is a "solution" to the "problem" of immigration in Arizona. For one thing, Arizona is land that was seized from Mexico after the Mexican-American War. It is Mexican land that they were forced to surrender to the United States of America.

This is a factor. However, if they wish to take Arizona and the south back, they are more than willing to start a war. It will end the same as last time - but perhaps it will re-affirm the concept of a border.

A wall would also go a long way in preventing people from just walking across. I know ATS is all about denying physics and common sense - but I've yet to see someone run through a wall made of concrete, or successfully scale ten feet of razor wire.

With all the billions we spend on funding new research into how frisbees and kites fly each year, I would imagine we could divert some of that spending to building a sufficient "wall."

I think even Mexicans confused about what century they are living in will still be able to figure out what the meaning and purpose of a twenty-foot wall topped with razor-wire means.

We could also do the whole Korea thing and just fill the area with countless landmines. That seems to be pretty damned effective, where's Korea's illegal immigrant problem? You know when you will run into a fence or wall... but you never quite know when you'll run into that land mine.

Thus, unofficial jobs are created.

I will borrow a trick from our zany little knowledge base up there:

So, you have openly admitted to supporting slavery and the disregard of rights for human beings!

.... that came off flat... I'll have to work on my impressions of a spastastic fountain of hatred.

Third, I do not think that the legal attacks on illegal immigrants will work. They cannot be enforced without arousing the ire of the People by unjustly discriminating against Hispanics. The legal challenges to these laws will succeed in the end.

www.alternet.org...

"Several months after the law was applied, it's possible to observe a lower number of Hispanics in that area of America. We estimate there are 100,000 less Hispanics compared to the start of 2010," said the report by the private BBVA Bancomer foundation, released at the two-day Global Forum on Migration and Development, in the Pacific resort of Puerto Vallarta.

Though it is admitted that many of those illegals likely fled to other states - it is pretty clear that many of these illegals would rather pick up and move (about 25+% of them) without any conflict or involvement with law enforcement. If the national policy were actually enforced, and we simply said "you have 60 days where you can simply walk back to where you came from with no questions asked and no hard feelings; after that, we'll kick you so hard on your way out that you'll be tasting shoe polish for a month" - then I imagine a substantial portion - if not the majority - would simply self-deport.

I will admit that the immigration system needs to be streamlined and made more applicant-friendly, but we also have to enforce our borders and policy.

Fourth, the influx of illegal Latin American immigrants, combined with the 14th Amendment, means that the southern states will become increasingly "Mexican." The children of migrants that are born in Arizona will be American citizens.

Supreme court rulings have yet to establish this. This is one of the issues that is being pressured for rulings or for clarification through legislation.

They will increasingly support Latin American cultural initiatives within the USA. They will work towards a synthesis of USA and USM cultures. Eventually, the borders will disappear and the North American Union will appear.

This will not happen anymore than a union of America and Canada. We have a more positive relationship with Canada, and even there, there's no real border conflict or problem (because those in the civilized world apparently understand the concept of a passport and point of entry).

Obviously, all four of these processes are already underway. Latin American migration waves are breaking down the boundaries between the nations of North America. In time, 'illegal immigration' will become a non-issue.

And at the rate things are going, so with the U.S. We either enforce our borders, or we don't. I choose to enforce mine. If you wish to be over-run by anyone who wishes to waltz into your country, then so be it - your country no longer has any jurisdiction over my territory and all legal authority is rendered null and void. You have one week to vacate your offices before all persons and possessions are declared 'my' property or enemies of this state and will be summarily destroyed. Your compliance is not optional.

Originally posted by Redwookieaz
Great. Just what my beloved home needs now. A bunch of stupid nazis running around getting in trouble. That is not the association I want people making in their heads after watching the news. Arizona=nazis. Ridiculous.

I was thinking much the same. I'm not an Arizonan yet, but I will be moving there in about six month's time to the Phoenix area. I currently live in Cook Co. IL and I am very sad to admit when I tell some people around here that I'm relocating to AZ they say some rather derogatory things about my future home and the people who live there. It really burns my behind. I keep attempting to point out that whether or not they personally agree with the law themselves, the state of Arizona has the right to make its own laws! Some people just can't seem to grasp that concept. Sad.

reply to post by Aim64C


Let us imagine that we live in an alternate universe. The only difference between this alternate universe and our own, familiar world is that America did not invade Iraq. In 2004, America instead dedicated its military might to the construction of an enormous fortified barrier across the entire Southern border. When this project was announced, the headlines all read: "The Great Wall of America."

This is what happened after they began to build the Wall. President Bush made good on his promise to enforce the national immigration policy. Immediately, Hispanic American advocacy groups began a campaign of lawsuits to challenge the immigration laws, hoping to have them repealed.

Acting on Executive Orders, the FBI and INS began a massive, nation-wide campaign to crack down on illegal immigration. In the initial raids, many families were apprehended and deported. However, reports of these raids quickly spread across the country. Illegal aliens began to flee their places of residence, fearing that they would be rounded up next.

For the most part, they fled across state borders. They had little interest in returning to their home countries. Fleeing across state borders allowed them to escape the states' immigration enforcement officers, but not the FBI. Many families were captured and deported, but many more escaped detection for years.

The Wall was completed by 2008. An enormously expensive edifice, it successfully prevented all illegal entry of the United States. It had cost more than money.

With the Wall complete, it was now impossible for the hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens still in America to leave. Most did not want to get deported for fear that they would lose everything that they had gained in America. Many of their children had been born in America, and for some this proved to be a blessing, as they could now remain in the country. Those without children had to remain on the move, to avoid being caught in immigration sweeps.

Anxious to be rid of the illegal aliens and their 'anchorbabies,' in 2008 the electorate had demanded the repeal of the 14th Amendment. President Romney and his supermajority caucus obliged these patriots the next year. Some families found themselves under arrest without warning as their children's citizenships were declared void by law. Many others fled the police.

It is now 2010 in that universe. Hundreds of thousands of illegal (Latin) Americans still reside within the United States. Unable and unwilling to leave, they were forced to rely on underworld connections to survive in America. Deprived of American identities, they were forced to use increasingly sophisticated counterfeit ID. Many began studying American accents so that they could lead a normal American life under a false identity. Many others were unable to fit in with normal American society, especially the children that grew up as nomads. They were unable to make a living through honest, legal means. These enclaves of illegal Americans began to run underground economies and politics parallel to the citizens'. Their culture became a mixture of American customs and the customs of the various countries that they had originated in. They constituted their own, hidden government of the Latin Exile; an Exilarchy. (I hope you can see where this parallel leads).

These are not really changes to the status quo. Rather what has changed is the population of the criminal Hispanic population in the United States. Their numbers have swollen thanks to the enormous number of illegal Americans trapped in the United States. Now the drug cartels and the gangs and the syndicates get stronger. They can afford better legal support than ever before; they can hire Hispanic American legal centers to challenge laws and to lobby Congress. The leaders of these syndicates and the leaders of the Exilarchy will have their voices heard louder and more clearly than ever. They will get what they want if they are persistent.

You see, in both worlds the borders were opened. In our world, the border will open because of the changing sympathies of future generations of Americans. In the Anti-Illegal World, the border will open because of the growing wealth of the illegal underworld. In that world, the end of the illegal alien crisis will be like the end of Prohibition; the nation will breathe a sigh of relief as the syndicates become legitimate businesses. The crime rate will drop and the nation will be much safer. I wouldn't be surprised if the crisis had developed into a race war on American streets, in that other world.

reply to post by Aim64C

All the more reason to be capable of verifying you are a legal citizen.

If you are a legal citizen, there should be no reason the police have to question whether or not you are a legal citizen. The "reasonable suspicion" is not justified, there should be no reason that the officer had any suspicion whatsoever. Therefore, seeing as how the "reasonable suspicion" in the case of a legal US resident was not justified, it then is a violation of that person's 4th Amendment right to be secure in their personal papers and effects.

I have made it clear that if you are a citizen of this country, it is your responsibility to have a legal form of ID on you at all times that establishes you as a citizen.

No, you don't have to have your papers on you at all times, even when driving, if you are pulled over without your licence to drive, you have 24 hours to produce it. You do not have to have your papers on you at all times, this is the United States, not Nazi Germany.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap

Let us imagine that we live in an alternate universe.

Okay.

I'll point out the first problem that I doubt you've realized - we live in this universe.

With the Wall complete, it was now impossible for the hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens still in America to leave.

This has already been addressed in my previous post. I grow tired of repeating myself and will leave you to find it.

Most did not want to get deported for fear that they would lose everything that they had gained in America.

I will cry a tear for them after escorting them across the border and leveling my barrel at any who attempt to re-enter.

Many of their children had been born in America, and for some this proved to be a blessing, as they could now remain in the country. Those without children had to remain on the move, to avoid being caught in immigration sweeps.

These people are not confused. They know exactly what they are doing - that their immigration here is illegal. Period. I do not share in your sympathy - they are not a group of people that requires saving or protection to glorify my own egotism.

Anxious to be rid of the illegal aliens and their 'anchorbabies,' in 2008 the electorate had demanded the repeal of the 14th Amendment.

The 14th amendment has no jurisdiction in this case.

It is now 2010 in that universe. Hundreds of thousands of illegal (Latin) Americans still reside within the United States. Unable and unwilling to leave, they were forced to rely on underworld connections to survive in America. Deprived of American identities, they were forced to use increasingly sophisticated counterfeit ID. Many began studying American accents so that they could lead a normal American life under a false identity. Many others were unable to fit in with normal American society, especially the children that grew up as nomads. They were unable to make a living through honest, legal means. These enclaves of illegal Americans began to run underground economies and politics parallel to the citizens'. Their culture became a mixture of American customs and the customs of the various countries that they had originated in. They constituted their own, hidden government of the Latin Exile; an Exilarchy. (I hope you can see where this parallel leads).

You are failing to factor in actual immigration reform. No one here is against forming a process by which these individuals could apply for citizenship and proceed through legally. The problem is those laws do not exist. No law or process exists for which someone already illegally in this country can legally apply for citizenship.

Current laws require -all- illegal immigrants to be deported. Period. You enforce the law, or you don't. If you're not going to enforce the law, then you are no longer necessary and will be replaced. It is not the duty of law enforcement and the judiciary system to make or amend laws. That is the role of legislatures and legislatures, alone. If they wish to change the laws that were made by people before them, then that is their prerogative. However, the law is the law.

These are not really changes to the status quo. Rather what has changed is the population of the criminal Hispanic population in the United States. Their numbers have swollen thanks to the enormous number of illegal Americans trapped in the United States. Now the drug cartels and the gangs and the syndicates get stronger. They can afford better legal support than ever before; they can hire Hispanic American legal centers to challenge laws and to lobby Congress. The leaders of these syndicates and the leaders of the Exilarchy will have their voices heard louder and more clearly than ever. They will get what they want if they are persistent.

The problem, however, is that drug cartels cannot operate without a product. Their largest cash 'crops' are narcotics grown and processed in South America. With a virtually impenetrable wall cutting off those supply lines - the major source of funding is cut out.

I am sure some of these syndicates would remain - but it is more likely they would secure their own avenues of departure to continue business elsewhere or via other means. Some would attempt to form the "Latino Mafia" - and that would work about as well as it did for all previous mafia installments.

You see, in both worlds the borders were opened.

No, I don't. You don't, either.

In our world, the border will open because of the changing sympathies of future generations of Americans.

You're daft. Over 60% of the nation support the immigration bill while only some 20% oppose. This divide has only increased over time and will continue to do so.

This blatant disregard for our nation's laws is only causing further fissures in our population. The crime and drug trade running rampant through the southwest brought about by the open border is only increasing resentment toward Latino populations that is not warranted. Latinos have become the new porch-monkeys in society because of the crime and filth the open border brings with it - it is a reputation the Latino community does -not- deserve. Neither do they deserve to be considered illegal simply because they are Latino (and even as far north as Missouri - just about every Latino's citizenship status is questioned as a social topic).

Do you not see how the lack of border enforcement is tearing this country apart!? We have states being reprimanded for enforcing FEDERAL LAW. We have the NATIONAL government coming out and PUBLICLY denouncing a piece of legislation by one of its member states! Do you have any idea how wrong that is!? We are the God Damned United States. The world has made it pretty damned clear by now that if we don't stand up for each other, no one else is going to.

And here we are - states publicly announcing boycotts against other states - threatening to shut off power to each other and interrupt each others' mutual economies.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT FOR THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT IN THE FIRST PLACE. To prevent this kind of insanity from tearing the nation apart. This is why the powers of the state were clearly defined against the powers of the nation - to set the precedent that states can make their own decisions (they are big kids now - wearing pull-ups and everything) while staying within certain guidelines established by all states as being fundamental to being part of the union.

The whole goal is for the federal government to settle disputes like this, and instead, it is only being used to fan the flames further.

No, sir, there is NOT a sense of empathy shared by the states towards Mexico. The -legal- citizens (the ones that have the right to be there and to vote) have said they have had enough of the illegals. 60% of the nation agrees. Polls involving Iran show more public support for Iran than for Mexico.

reply to post by whatukno

If you are a legal citizen, there should be no reason the police have to question whether or not you are a legal citizen.

This makes no sense, whatsoever. How do I tell you apart from an illegal citizen? You have a drivers license or state-issued ID. The illegal doesn't (or has a faulty one). You have records of being a legal citizen. The illegal citizen doesn't.

The "reasonable suspicion" is not justified, there should be no reason that the officer had any suspicion whatsoever. Therefore, seeing as how the "reasonable suspicion" in the case of a legal US resident was not justified, it then is a violation of that person's 4th Amendment right to be secure in their personal papers and effects.

Court rulings have already established that your citizenship may be brought into question if, during a lawful encounter with an officer, you fail to present a state or federal ID.

You are not stopped because the officer thinks you are an illegal (unless, of course, you are a known illegal or seen purchasing counterfeit IDs, crossing the border illegally, etc). The officer can't stop you because he/she thinks you are an illegal.

No, you don't have to have your papers on you at all times, even when driving, if you are pulled over without your licence to drive, you have 24 hours to produce it. You do not have to have your papers on you at all times, this is the United States, not Nazi Germany.

This is incorrect. Most states require that you produce an ID when stopped in traffic - while policies between states differ (and enforcement is up to officers in the field) - I am aware of no state that does not contractually bind you to carrying you drivers' license with you while driving. That is the point of issuing the damned thing.

en.wikipedia.org...

Because a large number of countries, including Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United Kingdom and the United States have no national identification cards and because of the widespread use of cars, driving licenses are often used as a de facto standard form of identification.

Many European countries, New Zealand and Canada require drivers to produce their license on demand when driving. In such countries, the driver must always carry their license on them when driving. In the United Kingdom, it is not necessary for drivers to carry their driving licence while driving. However, if stopped, a driver may be required to produce their licence at a nominated police station within seven days. The police issue a form for this purpose,[5] colloquially known as the "seven-day wonder" or a "producer".

Some European countries require adults to carry identification at all times. A driving licence is not necessarily valid as identification in every European country.

I suppose Canada is now Nazi Germany?

You have been told multiple times that legal immigrants are issued identification cards that solidify their identity and status as a U.S. citizen. Along with that, they are told, specifically, to keep that ID with them at all times when outside their home. Even visitors to this nation are instructed to keep their passport with them at all times when not in their residence. That is why that stuff is issued to you.

Here we go: law.onecle.com...

(d) Certificate of alien registration or alien receipt card
Every alien in the United States who has been registered and
fingerprinted under the provisions of the Alien Registration Act,
1940, or under the provisions of this chapter shall be issued a
certificate of alien registration or an alien registration receipt
card in such form and manner and at such time as shall be
prescribed under regulations issued by the Attorney General.
(e) Personal possession of registration or receipt card; penalties
Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times
carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate
of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to
him pursuant to subsection (d) of this section. Any alien who fails
to comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of
a misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined
not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or
both.

That is the U.S. National law. Emphasis my own.

reply to post by Aim64C

You are not stopped because the officer thinks you are an illegal (unless, of course, you are a known illegal or seen purchasing counterfeit IDs, crossing the border illegally, etc). The officer can't stop you because he/she thinks you are an illegal.

Therefore no reason to check whether or not you are here legally. It's simply not in the states purview, it's a federal issue.

Checking someones citizenship status because of a traffic stop, makes about as much sense as searching a person's home for child porn because they were speeding. They aren't related and it's not a reasonable search.

Terry V. Ohio dictated the "Reasonable Suspicion" idea, giving officers a wide birth in searching a person, but the officer must inform the person that they have a reasonable suspicion based on something, if that is not found to be the case, if the officer does not find what he thinks he would, the officer did not satisfy his reasonable suspicion, should have never had a reason to be suspicious and has violated the persons civil rights.

This is the case here. This is what is going to start happening, when cops start harassing legal citizens checking their immigration status, they are going to be sued for violating that citizens civil rights, if they are in the country legally, and are citizens of this country, there is no reason to harass them, violating their 4th Amendment rights, and causing them tremendous amounts of pain and suffering.

I know that if I had my citizenship questioned by a police officer, I would certainly sue. But thankfully being a Caucasian they probably won't ever check me anyway even if I was in Arizona or Texas or the other states. But if I did travel there and was accosted by an officer who demanded my "papers" I am certain that a decent lawyer would make me quite the wealthy man.

They already have laws that allow police officers to ask for identification when you have committed some infraction of the law or are suspected of committing an infraction.

What the Arizona law states is that now the officer has the right to request verification of your identity based on the suspicion that you are here illegally.

20 B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES,

What would be deemed reasonable suspicion of you being here illegally? I think some have mentioned these 2.

1) skin color.
2) you speak another language
3 ???

They have successfully passed a law that targets skin color and language as reasonable suspicion of a crime.

I will repeat this.

SKIN COLOR IS REASONABLE SUSPICION OF A CRIME.

I will repeat

SKIN COLOR IS REASONABLE SUSPICION OF A CRIME.


Peace

The illegals are not just taking the jobs that citizens won't do. Where I was employed the illegals made way above minumum wage. They made less than the citizens but still way above minumum wage. As for the actual jobs that citizens won't do because of the low wages, it doesn't take millions of illegals to fill those jobs.

The illegals are not just a problem on the borders. I am from the Northeast and we have a big problem here. There are now factory jobs that require you to be bilingual and speak spanish. We have immigrants from all over the world and are not required to speak their language, only spanish. One of the requirements of becoming a citizen is to learn the english language.

Though Arizona's illegal population has gone down, may of those illegals just moved to other States. If other States want to mirror Arizona laws, don't be surprised. Arizona is simply enforcing already existing laws.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


Looks to me like the usual effort to discredit those who support securing the borders as white racists. Ho Hum. The neo-nazis eat...does that mean everyone who eats is a neo-nazi? Black Panthers walk. Does that mean everyone who walks supports the racism of the Black Panthers?

reply to post by sara123123


The point is, laws like this are being supported and pushed through by white nationalist lobby groups.

Here's this too, you know the brouhaha with the body scanners at airports, the TSA pat downs? This is the same thing only going after a smaller segment of the population a specific segment of the population, this is fascist ideology at work here.

Imagine, just because you look a certain way, the police having the authority and right to detain you and search you. Would it be fair? Would it be right?

No it's not, and that is what these laws are going to be. Each and every person that is detained by this law is going to have to wait in a jail cell till their identity is confirmed, and if these laws go into effect, it won't be long before there is a long and lengthy backlog.

First it will be days before someone is confirmed a US Citizen, then weeks, then months, then years, eventually some people are going to spend years in a jail cell, waiting for uncaring officers to get around to checking whether or not they actually belong in this country.

Jailed on no charges, no court, just waiting to be confirmed. That is what this is going to be.