My son chose not to say the Pledge of Allegiance at school ther other day

Originally posted by Miraj
reply to post by OldCorp

 

I starred you for the first three paragraphs.

The rest is just an assuming right wing rant.

OPs kid should have said it, but now that they harassed him for it, he shouldn't say it.

Why should he have said it?

There is no valid answer to that question.

reply to post by Funkydung


Hey everyone,

I say say that your son had a right to do what he did. I too, once believed in America. I think that you and your son need to confront the teacher for what he/she did. Your son has a GOD given right to stand up for his beliefs.
I encourage you and your son to hold fast and don't back down.

reply to post by ra.ra3


we were never america, we are simply on part of north america. If u dont understand that I dont know about ur basic knowledge or your uneducated opinion.

Land of the free???
but NOT free to choise to not say the Pledge.

The Pledge of Allegiance is Only to brain wash you to be a slave.
If you can not see that. Then it is working.

Originally posted by HomeBrew
Is this a public (United Stated Goverment funded in part or in whole) school, or a private school?

hey thanks guys for the replys...ive been gone for a few days and its good to see people finding this interesting...thanks again...


hey homebrew...yah this is a government school...i wanted to put him in a private school when he was young but his mom wouldnt have any of it. everytime i want to do something positive for him she either denys him or if he does get started in something about 1/3 of the way thru she pulls him out...examples....guitar lessons...he went for about 6 weeks and was really picking it up...she pulls him out...martial arts...5 weeks pulls him out for baseball...its been a rough 14 years for me...but when i get him i do my best to instill positive thoughts and lessons for him and try to tell him the truth about the world around him.

Originally posted by AmericanDaughter
They actually said the pledge in school!!??
Awesome but I'm shocked!
And I don't believe this story.

well believe it..as much as i dont believe it its true.

People aren't even allowed to wear clothes to school that say they love America anymore or have an American flag on their bike.

this i really dont believe...

If this story is true then Shame upon the parents teaching (in this case IF it was true the kid didn't even Know Why he didn't want to say the pledge- poor thing)

he does know why and he told them that it was his choice.

their attitude toward their conutry/the one the flag represents and the disrespect for those who Died so they CAN say the pledge Or almost anything else.

his attitude toward this country as is mine is that we love our country but really cant pledge an alligence to a piece of fabric...or to the people who call themselves government...seeing how they are the ones who are stealing our money by force and driving this country into the ground..being corrupt and turning this place into a police state....if this country and government was what it was suppose to be and that is free then we would be proud to at least pledge...but we dont pledge allegiance to a corrupt government that is taking our freedoms away daily. the way i see it is that it is the governments fault for tainting our country and our flag.

No wonder this country is full of a socialist anti America generation with parents like you and a prez that doesn't salute the flag either....

we def not socialist we believe in freedom...and we def arent anti american...america is the last hope of freedom in this world but its fading fast..

Sadly, 'the let's all hate and bring down America plan' is Almost going according to schedule; these clueless children will be running what's left of America some day and parents that teach disrespect for their country will/Should be sorry

like i said we dont hate america...we dont blame america...i think you know who we do blame. and its not the peoples schedule thats bringing america down its...we know who is right on schedule to do that. as for the clueless children that gonna be running america some day and the parents that teach disrespect for their country is the ones we have to really be worried about. your right they should be sorry.

Originally posted by OldCorp


I don't like my government in it's current configuration. Democrats and Republicans BOTH are controlled by special interests, and once they get to Washington it seems like even the most well meaning Congressmen think their first duty is to their reelection campaign, and not to those whose interests they are supposed to represent.

exactly.

Nevertheless, my eyes well with tears whenever I hear the Star Spangled Banner, and when I pledge allegiance to the flag I do so with my whole heart. I do this, not in support of the numbnuts running our country, but for what this country - and it's flag - are SUPPOSED to represent.

and that is your choice and i do not dislike you for doing so. when this country gets back on track and the flag represents what its suppose to then we will consider saying the pledge.

I'm not trying to be mean, but you have failed to do the right thing by your son. You say you support his decision to not recite the pledge; but by your/his own admission he doesn't know why he decided to do that. I think he is probably taking his cues from you, and it makes me wonder why you have such disdain for the values that made this country great, that he would think it's OK to disrespect the most visible symbol of our greatness.

that is your opinion and theres nothing wrong with having one. he is 14 and not yet ready to make speeches at congress yet but at least he is understanding a LOT more than the rest of those kids in school what is happening and is forming his opinions just as we do...give him a little time he may be another jfk. the rest of those kids in school know nothing about what is happening. he does learn from what i tell him..he sure isnt learning about anything that is happening in washington from the shcool. i hope your kidding when you say you wonder why i have such disdain for the values that make this country great....the values that make this country great is why we love this country and hate to see them crumble underneath our feet because of the lack of education the majority of our children have. we need to uphold the values that made this country great not keep them from our children to be eventually lost forever to an mtv american idol generation.

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and ask, "Did you vote for Obama?" I'm willing to bet the answer is yes. His attitude toward our country is the epitome of what is wrong with the left. He wants to destroy our country, bringing the greatest nation in the history of the world to its knees by destroying its institutions and disrespecting its traditions so he can create his Communist utopia; and he's dragging the rest of you along with him.

that was a wild stab. hell no i didnt vote for obama haha and your description of him (the government in general) is probably why my son doesnt want to say the pledge anymore...maybe that whole concept hasnt formed in his mind yet it doesnt take much for an intelligent person to figure out even at a young age.. i couldnt have said it better.

If you want my advice, teach him the values this country was founded upon (unless you are one of those who see the Founders as nothing more than rich, white, slave owning traitors - in which case you're both lost.) Teach him the meaning of personal responsibility, hard work, and self-sacrifice for the benefit of others; teach him that while things aren't going that well at the moment, we can always aspire to be great once again. Have him memorize the Declaration of Independence, or at least this part:

that is exactly what im am doing because i know the government run shcool will not. this is why he stood up for what he believes in..personal responsibliity hard work self sacrifice for the benefit of others...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

THOSE are the ideals the flag represents. If you have a problem with that, then I don't know what to tell you. In any case, I wish you and your son well.

yes you are right these are the ideals that the flag represents but that is no longer happening in this country anymore. thanks for the words my friend...

Originally posted by OldCorp

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
reply to post by OldCorp

 

I fully support your right to feel and think however you wish on this subject, and I too put my hand over my heart and pay full attention to the National Anthem.

The pledge of allegiance, however, is something that should never be forced on anyone. To pledge oneself to anything under any kind of force is crossing major ethical lines that should not be crossed.

And I won't even mention the ethical issues of pledging oneself to a flag to begin with.

edit on 16-11-2010 by captaintyinknots because: (no reason given)

I see your valid point, but IMO, if you want to be a citizen of this country, then you had damn well better pledge allegiance to it. If you don't, there are plenty of other countries in which to live. Immigrants do it (the legal ones) and do it proudly; in fact, they study for years to have the privilege. I think that's one of the problems with our country today: many people do not care about anything greater than themselves, nor are they willing to sacrifice anything or give of themselves unless it benefits them personally.

Is a little loyalty too much to ask?

not in a free country you dont have to pledge anything if you dont want to...this is what the founding fathers was trying to get away from when they told the king to kiss their arse. if we pledge we do to our creator and no man nor symbol.

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
reply to post by Funkydung

 

edit to add:

what was his "punishment?" What kind of trouble did he get into?

sounds like all the teacher did was ask him "why?" according to your story. so what was his reason? why doesnt he just be honest and tell the teacher why....so the question is does he know why? what is he taking a stand against? You dont need to tell him to say anything. Telling him what to say is lame. Just as lame as forcing people to say it who really dont believe in it would be.

edit on 17-11-2010 by open_eyeballs because: (no reason given)

he told them that it was his choice. that was good enough..he got sent to office and they grilled him and he kept telling them that it was his choice not to do it and why was they making such a big deal out of it....

Originally posted by sakokrap
reply to post by Funkydung

 

I applaud your son sir.

I am an x-infantry combat vet who took an oath to support and defend the Constitution, and I myself will not say the pledge of allegiance (to the flag) in any case whatsoever. (Further, I refuse to stand either and understand that I may offend some people by choosing such actions).

I am personally offended by people's action to pledge allegiance to a flag myself. It is merely a symbol of an idea, albeit an idea founded in the Constitution, but a mere shadowy symbol of an intangible idea. Nothing I feel worthy of pledging fielty to.

Please do inform your son that I, a man who did duty in the military with plenty of suckage ("if it ain't raining, we ain't training"!), sincerely appreciates his courage and I feel proud of my service only when I hear stories of courage, vigilance and honor such as he has shown.

thank you sir....he has a grand dad that fought in viet nam(who to this day deals with memories of hell on earth just because a few politicians thought it best to kill a few million) and a step father that is a marine...both of those good people understand that this country isn't what it use to be and understand what freedom of choice is and also understand who has taken over washington these days. like i said earlier if these people was protecting our freedoms and teaching our younger generations what freedom means and how to protect it there wouldnt be a problem. but these people not only do not protect our freedoms but are taking them away from us...and the sad part is the kids that surround my son have no eartly clue as to what is happening and i mean that seriously.

reply to post by captaintyinknots


Because it's our countries symbol.

Is this his country or not? Keep in mind, I'm not some right wing brain washed nut job.. Simply put, pledging to the flag, which symbolizes the history of our nation is pledging allegiance to our nation.. And even if you don't like how things are going politically, you don't gain anything by symbolically abandoning it.

Well now how does he feel about the other that did say it? He dosent mind if they say it do he? Hes not going to take anyone to court so he can have things they way he wants them is he?

Originally posted by westcoast
reply to post by sakokrap

 

There is a clear difference between disobedience because of a strong belief, or just because you want to be a turd and go against all and any authority just because you can.

i hope you dont think my son is a turd trying to be cool in school because if you do you got it all wrong.

I do NOT see kids being disobedient because they feel it is their constitutional right to stand against doing something they do not believe in for some strong moral or ethical reason. It is because they are spoiled and undisciplined and think it is their 'right' to say and do whatever they want, society be darned.

of course you dont....because kids have no idea what their constitutional rights are...the ones that dont have a clue and decide not to stand and say it probably do have a attitude problem...see that the difference between them and my son...he actually know a bit about the bill of rights and the constitution and about politics. pretty amazing at 14 i know but hey it all starts with the parents. trust me he is not spoiled rotten and it would be really sad if he was.

(OP, I am not referring to your child here...I don't want you to think my comments are a personal attack against him at all. I am speaking of my own personal experience with school age kids in my own community. If your son IS doing this due to a moral belief than I do respect that, I just feel that the majority of these situations are more about disobedience.)

ok i just read that haha thank you. i feel if the kids was taught a little something about the bill of right and the constitution more would be able to make up their own minds.....my son said that they do not teach anything about the bill of right or the constitution at his school which doesnt surprise me in the least.

When I was growing up here in the U.S., originally being from Switzerland, I would always be stunned by everybody saying this "pledge of allegiance" every morning and looking at the flag and putting your right hand on your heart. I was not used to this, but I remember being young and kind of going with it for a while to fit in and all. As I got older, I was more educated and saw this country for what it has now become, and I stopped participating in these acts. Just so you know, I had a green card up until a year or so ago, when I was granted dual citizenship. I would get the dirtiest looks from a lot of people and teachers sometimes even forced me to stand up during the anthem until I was able to resist. I had been called a "terrorist" and a "nazi" many times. This shows the ignorance of people nowadays all too well. I understand that it may seem disrespectful to many, but I don't understand why. If this country is as great and free as people have said it is, everyone should have the right to or not to partake in any kind of "pledge of allegiance". During my last year at school, I noticed others were also starting not to participate in these events because these individuals also did not see any reason to partake. In these situations you should have a choice. You either take part or not, and no one should ever be discriminated against for not doing so. I've been called an idiot for not standing up during the anthem or pledge of allegiance. Unfortunately these individuals don't even know exactly what they are doing when they are just taking part in a drill that they've known their whole lives. I find it very ironic being called a "nazi" when I did not stand up. No one should be getting your son in trouble for this. I am sorry to hear this.

P.S.

Max Cavalera!

Originally posted by LAinhabitant
reply to post by sakokrap

 

There's a reason he didn't say it.
1. He disagrees with what it says
2. He disagrees with what the flag stands for
3. He doesn't have any pride or respect or allegiance for the country the flag represents.
4. He is parroting his parents beliefs
5. He is choosing to be defiant, oppositional, lazy or 'cool' by refusing to say it.
6. He is exercising his right to free speech and doesn't believe he should have to say it.

I can't think of any other reasons why he wouldn't say it and again I believe he should be able to state his 'belief' that the OP said he was standing up for.

like i said earlier...give him a chance...give him a little time...he's not quite ready to speak in front of congress yet but he is just trying things out.....at least he is standing up for his personal choice and thats what he told them. and of course he pays attention to the corrupt things that is happening around us...he knows that washington is stealing from us by the end of a gun...he sees innocent people being put in cages knowing they haven't hurt anyone and he's really doesn't appreciate it much. the way things are going what do you expect...for him just to keep his head in the sand.... most kids have their heads in the american idol fantasy and do not understand what is happening...they are more worried about what kind of drugs they can get their hands on rather than trying to understand what the pledge is all about. like i said earlier he loves his country as i do....he just believe its a choice and it is his choice and nobody should force it on him or pull him out of class and taken to the office for it...that in itself just makes it worse....it is opening his eyes a little wider....give him a little time to figure things out....

All I have to say its no wonder the govt it taking control, noone has any pride in their country, when people stop caring, thats when the govt steps in and wrests control...
maybe its too late now, but there WAS a time when WE THE PEOPLE did have the power, but then the socialists let it go
Shame on all of you

Originally posted by Logarock
Well now how does he feel about the other that did say it? He dosent mind if they say it do he? Hes not going to take anyone to court so he can have things they way he wants them is he?

na he doesnt mind what others do...he respects others choices as long as it doesn't cause harm to him. he has friends all over that shcool. he's a very well liked young man. if others say it he doesnt care its what they want to do...

Originally posted by Funkydung

Originally posted by OldCorp


I don't like my government in it's current configuration. Democrats and Republicans BOTH are controlled by special interests, and once they get to Washington it seems like even the most well meaning Congressmen think their first duty is to their reelection campaign, and not to those whose interests they are supposed to represent.

exactly.

Nevertheless, my eyes well with tears whenever I hear the Star Spangled Banner, and when I pledge allegiance to the flag I do so with my whole heart. I do this, not in support of the numbnuts running our country, but for what this country - and it's flag - are SUPPOSED to represent.

and that is your choice and i do not dislike you for doing so. when this country gets back on track and the flag represents what its suppose to then we will consider saying the pledge.

I'm not trying to be mean, but you have failed to do the right thing by your son. You say you support his decision to not recite the pledge; but by your/his own admission he doesn't know why he decided to do that. I think he is probably taking his cues from you, and it makes me wonder why you have such disdain for the values that made this country great, that he would think it's OK to disrespect the most visible symbol of our greatness.

that is your opinion and theres nothing wrong with having one. he is 14 and not yet ready to make speeches at congress yet but at least he is understanding a LOT more than the rest of those kids in school what is happening and is forming his opinions just as we do...give him a little time he may be another jfk. the rest of those kids in school know nothing about what is happening. he does learn from what i tell him..he sure isnt learning about anything that is happening in washington from the shcool. i hope your kidding when you say you wonder why i have such disdain for the values that make this country great....the values that make this country great is why we love this country and hate to see them crumble underneath our feet because of the lack of education the majority of our children have. we need to uphold the values that made this country great not keep them from our children to be eventually lost forever to an mtv american idol generation.

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and ask, "Did you vote for Obama?" I'm willing to bet the answer is yes. His attitude toward our country is the epitome of what is wrong with the left. He wants to destroy our country, bringing the greatest nation in the history of the world to its knees by destroying its institutions and disrespecting its traditions so he can create his Communist utopia; and he's dragging the rest of you along with him.

that was a wild stab. hell no i didnt vote for obama haha and your description of him (the government in general) is probably why my son doesnt want to say the pledge anymore...maybe that whole concept hasnt formed in his mind yet it doesnt take much for an intelligent person to figure out even at a young age.. i couldnt have said it better.

If you want my advice, teach him the values this country was founded upon (unless you are one of those who see the Founders as nothing more than rich, white, slave owning traitors - in which case you're both lost.) Teach him the meaning of personal responsibility, hard work, and self-sacrifice for the benefit of others; teach him that while things aren't going that well at the moment, we can always aspire to be great once again. Have him memorize the Declaration of Independence, or at least this part:

that is exactly what im am doing because i know the government run shcool will not. this is why he stood up for what he believes in..personal responsibliity hard work self sacrifice for the benefit of others...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

THOSE are the ideals the flag represents. If you have a problem with that, then I don't know what to tell you. In any case, I wish you and your son well.

yes you are right these are the ideals that the flag represents but that is no longer happening in this country anymore. thanks for the words my friend...

edit on 18-11-2010 by Funkydung because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-11-2010 by Funkydung because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-11-2010 by Funkydung because: (no reason given)

I FULLY support your son's right to do as he wishes regarding the Pledge of Allegiance. I also agree with you (agreeing with me ) that our country has taken a wrong turn somewhere. The children of the 60's, of which I AM a part, have taken the "F*ck the government" stance a bit too far. While our current leadership has decided that Socialism, and disdain for the institutions and traditions that made this country the greatest the world has ever seen - disdain shown every day by O-BUM-A apologizing to the world for our actions - are hip, and cool, they couldn't be further from the truth. Instead of trying to emulate Soviet Russia, we should be trying to return to the beliefs that made us great in the first place.

I got this video in an email today, and uploaded it to my Youtube channel. I think you should have your son watch it so that he can understand what the Pledge is SUPPOSED to stand for. Even though our leadership in DC thinks this attitude is outmoded and "quaint," it is what made us great once - and if more people return to this way of thinking, will make us great once again.



To close this post, I'd like to share one last Iconic image of what the Flag means to me; Courage, Bravery, and Sacrifice. (I hope this works...)




I wish you and your son well Funky Dung. As I said, I fully support his right to do as he wishes - I just hope he can discern the difference between what the Flag is SUPPOSED to represent, and what America hating left has twisted it to mean, and chooses wisely.

Cheers.

I am going to break this down into parts.

Originally posted by Funkydung

he is 14 and he told me the other day that he got in trouble for not saying the pledge....he understands that something is not right about it

What is not right about it?

and of course i have been teaching him about liberty and freedom and of course the state

This is good. It is important. Everyone should do this.

but he really couldn't remember what to tell the teachers when they asked him why and if it was some sort of religious reason.....

If he couldn't remember why he felt the way he felt, then he should have just said the pledge and been done with it. Without knowing why he doesn't want to say the pledge, he is just being obstinate. Nonconformism is good....but it has to have limits, unless one embraces the idea of being a social pariah.

so he just told them that it was his choice and that he loved America but he just feel right about saying the pledge..and that they shouldn't make a big deal about it but they did

You are right, it is his right. But if he cannot defend his actions, especially something like the pledge (which is going to raise ire), then he has to expect that those actions will not be readily accepted. It is the way of the world in adults. You son, being 14, needs to begin understanding things like debate logic.

....any suggestions on what i need to tell him to tell the teachers next time?

Yep. Nothing. He needs to decide for himself how he feels about things. YOu can teach him things, but it should be done socratically, by leading him with a series of questions. Otherwise, you just have an automaton that parrots your own beliefs, rather than espousing his own.

something sorta simple that he can remember because he is the only one in school that is actually standing up for his personal beliefs.

Are they his beliefs, or yours? If he cannot recall why he believes what he claims to believe, then they are not likely his personal beliefs. Quit filling your kids head full of things that are going to make his life difficult.

i'm very proud of him but i don't want this to cause him to be an outcast at school.....

Then don't have him do things that are going to make him an outcast.

he is very well liked at school and everyone really looks up to him but when the teachers cant understand why he wouldn't pledge they can come against him....anything that i can tell him?

How can they understand when he is unable to tell them?

or something that i can point him to that he can read and understand why some people don't say the pledge...and something he can tell these teachers without being seeming to be mean or a have a smart mouth...something kinda lite and to the point without getting him further in trouble..thanks guys

Provide him material, both pro and con to the discussion, and let him make his own conclusions. If he even cares to make any, that is.

hmm.
when i was 14 my father moved us from small town canada to trenton jew jersey. sp. new jersey. can u say culture shock? anyway, when pledge of allegience came over the loud speaker, (this was in the early 80's) i was allowed to sit down and put my head down. i am a canadian citizen and a full treaty indian.
but 1 thing that amazed me was the american history ie: 13 states and slavery and all that. i was in awe at the theatrics that the teacher used teaching about the slaves and serfs.

anyways im 40 now and 2 kids of my own and i would say let them make they're own choice. looking back on it id want them to learn other diverse cultures.