My son chose not to say the Pledge of Allegiance at school ther other day

reply to post by Funkydung


edit to add:

what was his "punishment?" What kind of trouble did he get into?

sounds like all the teacher did was ask him "why?" according to your story. so what was his reason? why doesnt he just be honest and tell the teacher why....so the question is does he know why? what is he taking a stand against? You dont need to tell him to say anything. Telling him what to say is lame. Just as lame as forcing people to say it who really dont believe in it would be.

My son is 15 and I just asked him if he says the pledge at school. He answered "yes". I asked him if he minded saying it? He answered, "No. Why would I?" I told him that because some people don't think they should have to say it, and asked what it means to him. He responded, "Because it's about what our country stands for and respecting the people who fought for it."

Amen to that.

That is all I have to say.

reply to post by Funkydung


Wow, a boy of 14 who refuses to be brainwashed - you have a great kid.

No-one should be forced to do anything, and those who try to force people into anything should be stopped.

Freedom of speech is also freedom to not say anything.
Lip service IMHO, is not something to teach a child if you want them to grow up to be real.

As far as the people who fought and died for freedom...
I suggest a good read of Smedly Butler's ( The Marine Commandant who testified before congress about the elder Bushes attempt to enlist him to commit a coup on the US government) "War Is A Racket"

PS the coup occured the day Kennedy was assassinated by the next generation.

So pledging to that which actually is, as opposed to what is now a fairy tale, is well ...
I think Raging Panda put it well enough above.

reply to post by Funkydung


I applaud your son sir.

I am an x-infantry combat vet who took an oath to support and defend the Constitution, and I myself will not say the pledge of allegiance (to the flag) in any case whatsoever. (Further, I refuse to stand either and understand that I may offend some people by choosing such actions).

I am personally offended by people's action to pledge allegiance to a flag myself. It is merely a symbol of an idea, albeit an idea founded in the Constitution, but a mere shadowy symbol of an intangible idea. Nothing I feel worthy of pledging fielty to.

Please do inform your son that I, a man who did duty in the military with plenty of suckage ("if it ain't raining, we ain't training"!), sincerely appreciates his courage and I feel proud of my service only when I hear stories of courage, vigilance and honor such as he has shown.

reply to post by sakokrap


Don't be so quick to bestow hero title on this 14 year-old. He already said that he didn't know why he didn't say it.

I have watched kids in class sit while others stood and said the alliegence. It's obvious that most of the time it has nothing to do with standing up for thier beliefs. It's becuase they are too lazy to get off their behinds and they think they look cool to go against authority.

It's this belief that they can do whatever they want, the teachers be darned, that feeds this attitude that is out there these days. No pride, no responsibility and no respect.

I agree that our government sucks right now and I have little respect for the current leaders. But I DO respect what the United States stands for. I think it is still a great country and we can get back on the right track again...but not by losing faith. Our society as a whole is spinning out of control. I see these kids with a complete lack of pride and faith and it's a terrible thing.

reply to post by westcoast


WestCoast, I'm surprised you allow someone to get into your kid's head like that. If he sees a flag and thinks that is his country and sees the blood of soldiers sacrificed, he has been bewildered a bit (IMHO).

As a combat vet airborne infantryman myself, I certainly did not take an oath to support and defend any flag. Further, to insinuate that the fallen amongst us fell for a symbol is a terrible grievance. If anything, men died because of bad luck, for brotherly love, or at the most idealistic in order to help government secure inalienable Rights for the populace. (Caveat- of course there were fellas who fell because they loved battle and finally caught the bullet with their name on it).

In my whole service, the flag was a symbol of our zone. Kind of like video games that use different colors to identify territories under control of some player. For Republicans to swear allegiance to "red" and Democrats to do so for "blue" seems ridiculous, no? Then why would it be any different for the stars and stripes.

Is your son familiar with what happened to the Wermacht after the Nazi's came to power? How they ceased swearing allegiance to the populace, and instead to the symbol of the Party (and the Chancellor himself)? Has your son ever seen the made-for-kids movie, "The Wave"?

You probably should have something more to say about all that sir.

reply to post by OldCorp


I starred you for the first three paragraphs.

The rest is just an assuming right wing rant.

OPs kid should have said it, but now that they harassed him for it, he shouldn't say it.

reply to post by westcoast


Now, I see some good old disobedience as one of the main ingredients of liberty. I don't particularly like going with the herd, and have always appreciated those who have been able to find the courage to choose their own independent actions. It has been the Rosa Parks, the Dred Scotts, the Ed & Elaine Browns who have changed things.

Forfeiting our silent obedient consent, in my humble opinion, is worse than apathy or ignorance. If these kids don't feel compelled to pledge their allegiance (that is a BIG DEAL!), then sure as hell they shouldn't be doing it. If some kids don't want to stand up because they're lazy, or they don't agree, then I appreciate them more than the kids who surrender their silent obedient consent and stand without knowing why- just because everyone else is doing it.

I myself appreciate Rugged Individualism, and all the branches thereof much more than herd-like clicks who utilize social pressures to drive conformity. Those are free expressions! Freely engaging as they choose, in a manner that they want to do (of particular merit to me, like I said, is disobedience).

I understand that these actions threaten the social order that many have become familiar with. This also is a natural occurrence. If things never changed socially, we'd still be beating females in the head and dragging them behind the bushes. Change itself isn't a bad thing, and the redefinition of social structures should be of highest appreciation by all (provided they're enhancing the well being of individuals, and peripherally societies).

reply to post by sakokrap


I'm not going to even try and change your mind, or more importantly, your beliefs. I respect you for your strong feelings regarding this and obvious personal experience that has created it.

Having said that, I think you are taking this wayyyy too literally. We are talking about kids and symbolism. As a child growing up, we started out every day saying the pledge of allegience. I was NEVER questioned by ANYONE whether or not to say it, or if it was our 'right' to NOT say it.

Why is it different now? For the same reason that there isn't corporal punishment in schools, that kids tell their teachers to F off and think its okay and cool to do so. It is about lack of respect. Not just for our country but for authority. This generation growing up today seems to think they are born with the rights and priveledges they have and don't need to earn any of it.

When I stand and salute the flag on the football field at my sons games and say the pledge of allegience with the hundreds of other americans standing around me, I am not doing it to a 'flag'. I am joing the people of my community and saying outloud, together with them that yes, I DO have pride in this country. I have pride in my community and I still believe that what we have is worth fighting for to keep. Yes, we might be a bit screwed up right now, but I still have faith and beleive in us as a democracy.

The fact that kids feel it is okay to sit back and smirk at the teacher instead of saying the pledge of allegience is a symptom of an illness in our society. We need to repair our foundation, then work on our infrastructure. We need to instill in our children the pride and honor that it takes to do that. It starts out with small things...it needs to start in our homes and our own small communities.

reply to post by sakokrap


There is a clear difference between disobedience because of a strong belief, or just because you want to be a turd and go against all and any authority just because you can.

I do NOT see kids being disobedient because they feel it is their constitutional right to stand against doing something they do not believe in for some strong moral or ethical reason. It is because they are spoiled and undisciplined and think it is their 'right' to say and do whatever they want, society be darned.

(OP, I am not referring to your child here...I don't want you to think my comments are a personal attack against him at all. I am speaking of my own personal experience with school age kids in my own community. If your son IS doing this due to a moral belief than I do respect that, I just feel that the majority of these situations are more about disobedience.)

reply to post by OldCorp


Welcome to ATS OldCorp.

By your post, I see that you understand that the flag represents different things to different folks. You used the words, "supposed to" and "symbol" and "not the numbnuts running..." Obviously, that flag is something emotive ("my eyes well with tears"), and can illicit any manner of heart-grumblings of just about any different type of folk.

I'm guessing you're an X-jarhead by your handle. As a jarhead, you would have taken an oath to the Constitution, not the symbol of it. I also imagine you likely would agree with me that if skewl kids pledged allegiance to the Constitution, that would be a step in a better direction.

Problem with those symbols is what they represent. It's different from one to another. It can be confuscated, and made to appear as something it in fact is not. By your "numbnuts" comment, I imagine you'd agree with me that those folks out there in DC aren't much reading that Constitution, and the government (or whatever one may call it) there is more a part of the flag, and less a part of the Constitution. No?

I'm not swearing any fielty to a flag/symbol- I want the meat and potatoes, not the marketing publication graphic artist rendering of it. I want the good stuff itself. No?

So, if we go down to Dennys and order up some fancy looking food from the menu and it shows up limp and small compared to the picture, you're not going to cover me when I say- Hey, this symbol/picture/representation of the good stuff is inaccurate. ? You bet you are. It ain't right. And I'm not expecting you to go around to your buddies and showing them the picture of the food, saying- that is some good grub right there- when you well know it isn't so in fact.

Same goes for that flag. It's a symbol. It has changed over time. Sure, it ain't easy in the guts to see what it has become with the numbnuts and all... but it ain't today what it was 100 years ago. That just ain't so about the Constitution. It isn't a "Living Document." It is just the same as it was when the last Amendment was ratified. No change. Still meat and potatoes, no bs, no fancy illustration, no numbnuts.

1981 movie about symbols and their use in a high-school class experiment. Based on actual events.

reply to post by Funkydung


You state your son is the only one willing to stand up for his personal beliefs. If they are his personal beliefs he should be able to state them. if he tells his teacher what I believe or someone else here believes then it is no longer his belief but someone elses. He needs to figure out for himself what it is about the Pledge that he personally disagrees with. Surely he has a reason and an opinion.

reply to post by westcoast


I can appreciate your expressions WestCoast. You're enjoining your community in a cultural ritual to build and fortify your sense of community. There's nothing wrong with that at all, and I don't have any objections for you.

I have similarly seen these expressions in churches. I think it is often called the "Praise" portion of the communal acts. The singing, the music, the emotional experience is part of a social dynamic that helps to congeal the group together. Understood.

The Pledge of Allegiance as a ritual act is a different matter than what I was referring to (which, you're right, is a much more literal/ideological/philosophical perspective). These rituals were likely something you cherished doing with your father as he watched you play. To me, that seems a matter of heritage, cultural ritual, and moreover, I can understand your emotions about the miscreants who could be perceived as degrading that social ritual/harmony which you hold in high regard. I have no arguments with you on any of these points sir.

(You gotta know though, I was one of those miscreants running around under the bleachers fishing for a kiss from some gal, or trying to find out where the party was ;-) ) I think I turned out okay, even though I took a different road with different social rituals and cultural heritage ;-)

reply to post by LAinhabitant


I got kicked out of one of those "pep rallies" once for not standing for the Pledge. The teacher was FURIOUS with me, and dragged me out by the arm as everyone stood with their hands on their chest. I didn't much mind getting out of the rally (it was a windfall in my eyes), but didn't like him putting his hands on me. (Honestly, I was kinda freaked out by the fury in his eyes. He was one of my teachers the year previous).

Even then, I wouldn't have been able to tell you why I didn't want to do it. I just knew that I didn't know why everyone was doing it, and didn't have a good reason to stand up and pretend to "go with the herd." I was 15. Like I said, I wouldn't have been able to say why I didn't stand, other than to say I didn't know why I should (other than the reason of pretending to be like everyone else, which definitely was something I was opposed to do itself).

reply to post by sakokrap


There's a reason he didn't say it.
1. He disagrees with what it says
2. He disagrees with what the flag stands for
3. He doesn't have any pride or respect or allegiance for the country the flag represents.
4. He is parroting his parents beliefs
5. He is choosing to be defiant, oppositional, lazy or 'cool' by refusing to say it.
6. He is exercising his right to free speech and doesn't believe he should have to say it.

I can't think of any other reasons why he wouldn't say it and again I believe he should be able to state his 'belief' that the OP said he was standing up for.

More silly government propaganda regurgitated from nationalists . "The pledge is about our freeedommmss!!!? And this country! And the flag!!!! You need to be loyal to your country because the hierarchy told you so!"..... "Sieg Heil!"

"I pledge myself to the republic, for which it stands"

In essence "Here is a verbal contract saying I will do whatever I can to make sure the republic turns this ticking time bomb that was once a democracy into a corporatocracy to fuel our own pockets and kill off the population in the process."

Saying the pledge these days is disrespectful to the flag, the forefathers, the country. Because what today's "America" is has nothing to do with being "one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

reply to post by Funkydung


Two sides to every story. Talk to the teacher and find out what really happened. If your son simply stood up quietly and did not recite the pledge there is absolutely no reason for anyone to speak with him about it, other than perhaps quietly and privately why he choose not to recite it. I think it would be reasonable to find out how they knew he was not reciting it. If he simply stood up it would be diffficult for them to even know.

If, however he disrupted the reciting the pledge, either by not standing or by drawing attention to his not reciting it, he should have been sanctioned by the teacher. He has no right to disrupt others. The reciting of the pledge is not an opportunity being served up to him to express his political beliefs. There are other forums where that is appropriate.

If he chooses not to recite it, the teacher should ask him to quietly leave the room and return when its over.

Originally posted by OldCorp

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
reply to post by OldCorp

 

I fully support your right to feel and think however you wish on this subject, and I too put my hand over my heart and pay full attention to the National Anthem.

The pledge of allegiance, however, is something that should never be forced on anyone. To pledge oneself to anything under any kind of force is crossing major ethical lines that should not be crossed.

And I won't even mention the ethical issues of pledging oneself to a flag to begin with.

edit on 16-11-2010 by captaintyinknots because: (no reason given)

I see your valid point, but IMO, if you want to be a citizen of this country, then you had damn well better pledge allegiance to it. If you don't, there are plenty of other countries in which to live. Immigrants do it (the legal ones) and do it proudly; in fact, they study for years to have the privilege. I think that's one of the problems with our country today: many people do not care about anything greater than themselves, nor are they willing to sacrifice anything or give of themselves unless it benefits them personally.

Is a little loyalty too much to ask?

The greatest thing about this country, he very principal that it was founded on, is freedom.

Do you understand what it means to pledge allegiance to something? I support my country. I will not, however, pledge blind allegiance to a flag, ever. The meaning of symbols can change. Once one is pledged to something, there is no going back.

It's funny that you say 'there are plenty of other countries in which to live'. Most of those countries dont give you a choice. Very humorous to me that your solution to someone exercising their freedom of speech is to send them to a place in which they have none. Bit of an oxymoron, wouldn't you say?

Sure we live in a free country, but if you don't do as we say, you shouldn't be allowed to live in it.

Do you see the flaw in the logic (or lack thereof) here?

I am not sure how you make the leap from not saying the pledge to being self focused and unwilling to sacrifice. A great argument could be made that speaking up against ones government is the greatest sacrifice, and the most unselfish thing a person could do.

As for immigrants, did you consider that our system of nationalization is built on indoctrination? That the whole idea is that those immigrants WILL come in and be a good worker bee and nothing else.

Loyalty is great. Blind allegiance only leads to tyranny.