Thermite Experiments and Evidence Summary

Originally posted by curious_soul

Originally posted by Varemia
reply to post by turbofan

 

Hey, did you know that gas burns at around 3000 degrees? Did you know that the gas lines broke when the towers collapsed? Did you know that the gas was igniting constantly underground?

Just curious.

I would like to see a link to this source of information. I've NEVER seen any reference to the WTC's having natural gas lines. I don't think there is no way in hell that would have got approval. Now, there possibley could have been gas lines in the basement levels.

Seriously, i would like to see anything that pertains to natural gas in or around the WTC's.

I was talking about in the basement. The guy I was responding to was talking about properties of metal that could only occur under intense heat. I was informing him of how there WAS intense heat in the basement.

www.bowhunter.com...

About then the first fireballs tumbled into the hole, filling his cramped space with searing heat and a radiant flickering light. That was the single moment Will admits that he almost gave up all hope. Please, God, he fervently prayed, don't let us burn to death! ...

Somehow the gaps in the rubble pinning us were just right to create a kind of cross ventilation. One by one the fireballs burned down and sputtered out. It was hot and smoky and more fireballs kept falling in all around us, but I finally stopped worrying about us burning up.
...
"I kept yelling," Will remembers. "I'd yell '8-13!' which means an officer needs assistance. I kept hollering 8-13 over and over."

But no one came. More fireballs rolled into the hole, yet by this time Will had grown used to them.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by LaBTop

1. It were 47 core columns.

Why thank you, LabTop, for that correction. I withdraw my original estimate. The total number of these pacakges needed to bring down the buildings is actually ONE HUNDRED AND THREE THOUSAND, FOUR HUNDRED. Either thousands and thousands of secret agents would need to descend on the towers to plant these charges all at once, or, one or two secret agents would be able to plant all these charges in about four years.

If THIS doesn't show you truthers just how preposterous these "controlled demolitions" stories are, then nothing will.

LT :Yep, playing the non-educated Archie Bunker card again. Well done.

2. No need for that ridiculous amount of explosive packets at all.
Just go to the third, highest mechanical floors, fill 47 boxed in columns and a few also hollow floor beams with a thermobaric explosive charge, and detonate them at will. It will shatter those columns like glass, and the onset for a global collapse is created.

...in which case you just threw 95% of your own conspiracy theories into the trash. Every single floor in the towers were suspended in air by horizontal support braces running from the core columns to the outer perimeter, so each floor has the exact same design and load bering weight as every other floor. If even *one* floor would legitimately collapse from being unable to withstand the force of the wreckage falling down upon it, then you're necessarily saying they *all* would have legitimately collapsed.

You're openly admitting all this "fell at free fall speed" and "it looks like controlled demoliitons" bit is just conspiracy mongoring rubbish. Do you even realize that?

LT : do you even faintly understand how a bottom-up demolition works? No, as you just demonstrated.
You use the weight of the building that will suddenly get room to fall down a substantial distance, to start a further natural gravitational collapse sequence. When the bottom of the falling part of the building hits the ground, an immense shockwave will travel up that falling part of the building, and demolish all joints, bolds and weldings.
You have to blast a substantial part of the buildings load bearing columns out from under it, and the weight of the building does the rest.
Now we have a small problem with any top-down demolition, you must keep the pace of the downward collapse going, so you have to remove a few more load bearing columns on the way down. And certainly not all columns, as you so hilariously offer to us, because then it would become a tad bit too obvious that a demolition was taking place.

Those columns had wide inspection windows, covered by plates. Just stand on top of an elevator, screw those inspection windows open, lower the thermobaric packet with the ignition cable, shut the window, and glue the ignition sender in place on the wall.

...and I've posted photos ad nauseum showing the condition of the steel they were retrieving at ground zero not one column shows anything even remotely what you're hypothesizing. You're making this up and we both know it.

LT : No. Full lengths of core columns shattered like glass do not appear anymore like steel columns.
They appear as pieces of steel.
And, many researchers already from day one on, told us that the heap of debris looked much too low for the total mass what came down, so things were missing.
And for your information, the FBI and Secret Service were interviewing every NYPD, FDNY and rescue worker every day after they came back from their shift. There were complaints from these very tired and shocked people why on earth they had to endure all those long interviews on what they saw at Ground Zero every day.
Smells like evidence suppression, to me.

Easy answer?
On 9-11-2001.

Easy response? You're on a runaway train of making up crap off the top of your heads and you don't know how to get off.

LT : You are the one doing that with your ridiculous rigging of all three WTC towers at every floor and every column and you know it.
I offer references from official sources for my theories, you just jump in every thread to post only your opinions on about everything. I stay to my theories, and keep adding more evidence.
You should go to my other few new late posts, and try to come up with some solid counter arguments, which I know already you will not be able to, just your usual style.

reply to post by Varemia


You did not understand what the main argument against that was: the main gas lines in South Manhattan were directly closed by OEM personnel, after the first plane hit. See NIST reports and Firefighter Magazine.
OEM had prepared scenarios to follow, when such huge events happened.

And you could be right, there could have been small gas lines to the basement, as thedman ever said :

RARE WTC IMAGE+VID: Whats Causing this Black Smoke at the Base?
www.abovetopsecret.com...
See thedman's posts about small gas-lines only leading to the sub basements.
The kitchen of the "Windows on the World" restaurant on the 107th floor was also down there, he says.
Cooked food was thus send up by freight-elevator nr 50.

I still don't understand why they could not have cooked on electric plates in the restaurant itself, looks a bit more easy and logical. That kitchen probably was just a cooling storage.
Gas in any high-rise is strictly forbidden.

That was btw, Arturo's freight elevator nr 50 that fell down from 19th floor to B1, then people made a hole and rescued him and his female passenger, the carpenter woman, and then a fireball spew out of the opening on top of the elevator car the rescuers had made.
That's much, much later than the plane struck.

Originally posted by Varemia
reply to post by turbofan

 

Hey, did you know that gas burns at around 3000 degrees? Did you know that the gas lines broke when the towers collapsed? Did you know that the gas was igniting constantly underground?

Just curious.

You do realize there are no "broken gas" lines in a DSC machine, correct?

Originally posted by Joey CanoliXRD is a conclusive test for what the aluminum and iron are from. It would cost $150,Instead, he, Farritt, et al, are unaware of this simple fact.

You are honest enough to question Rob's interpretation of the FDR thing, to the point that he banned you from his forum. Now, will you do the same again and investigate what I'm saying?

I've already studied the paper, the process, the science. There is no need to question it.

If I'm honest enough to weed out bad research, then you can conclude that I'm honest enough to continue that
trend if I were to see some questionable conclusions with the dust analysis. Just to clariy, it wasn't the entire
FDR analysis that was questionable, only certain aspects (IE: the flight deck door error).

XRD is not required to test the Al and Fe elements found in the dust samples. Jones/Farrer did several tests
to confirm their results.

More to the point, you should scan through Peteridine's repsonses to me thus far and see the errors and
reaching comments.

I hope you "Joey" understand the implications of these iron rich spheres and the exterme temperatures required
to reduce oxygen from the elements found.

Originally posted by SeventhSo Dave, in your own words please explain how preposterous it would be for one or two agents to plant all these charges over the course of 3-4 years

Long time no see Seventh, good to see you back! I know your question was directed to Dave, but allow me to answer and give some
opinions of what may have happened in a span of months even:

- elevator shafts were under repair. Nano energetic material can be painted onto columns. What if the repair
crew was instructed to paint the columns using a specific "paint" (**cough**) which was supplied by one of
the insiders? They would be doing the work and not even know.

- RF transmitted devices were likely used to rig up such a tall building. No messy conspicuous wires, or
detcord to find pre/post collapse and reduces install time by considerable amounts.

I've done some research and posted a thread covering this; "Igniting Nano Thermite Without Detcord"

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by TrueFalse
lets wait for the debunkers though, they surely got some good explanations

Oh, yes we do...

1) This is an apples and oranges comparison. The steel used in the WTC weren't I beams but box columns, and they were four times as large and ten times thicker. To defeat that type of steel you'd need to place these charges all around the entire perimeter of the beam,

You dont know much about thermite do you? What makes you think the ammount used was just enough to burn the beam in the picture. Pour a bit on top of an engine cover and it will burn all the way through till it hits the street. The Thermite kept reacing inside the fundament of the tower for weeks after the collapse. The boots of the firefighters kept melting. A rather big ball of molten metal dubbed the meteor was eventually recovered from the fundament.

reply to post by Pteridine and reacted on by LaBTop


Pteridine, another scientifically sound addition to the important issue of the two spires still standing after all debris hit the ground level at both WTC towers (this is btw the EXCELLENT source I hinted at but did not remember anymore, found it back now) :

The Spires, Demystified, Part 1
The Spires, Demystified, Part 2

I'm sure you will like the kind of logical and sound reasoning by the people who write all this, and all the other articles in the left column of that web site's pages.
Here are some of the excellent photo-details posted by the author :







Especially this last one, View 5, is a strong indication of thermitic cutting of columns.
I always suspected this NYPD chopper photo to have been photo-shopped, in fact darkened on the right side, to hide the even more blatant white puffs of smoke emanating from the still standing columns there, which seem to be in the process of being chopped to pieces.
When you would lighten up the whole picture, and hit CTRL and + , to enlarge the pictures, you will much better see the reason why that picture is such a strong evidence of thermitic cutting in process, right under our eyes.

As I said, f.ex. the other threads regarding for instance WTC 7, are fodder for numerous new threads here at ATS, so get started, you lazy Truthers.
Trusters are also invited to address this treasure trove of newly found back external threads, with intriguing groundbreaking research.

EDIT : read this post too.

From page 2 of my above two links :





Note that on page 1, View 4 was taken just before View 5. View 4 has the already bended like an elbow column in it, to the left of the spire complex.

But lets take a step back from our analysis and really look at the picture we call "view 5".

This photo contains a wealth of information. Firstly, please look at the ends of the 2 groups of column pairs falling away on the bottom left of the photo.

Why are the ends of these columns "smoking"? Even though they are falling at freefall speed (by definition), their ends are leaving a smoke trail behind them. Does metal burn like wood?

Considering that they were located more than 30 floors away from the "raging fires", what made their ends so hot? Why aren't they "hot" anywhere else along their lengths except for their "severed" ends?

Also, why do these welds just "give way", one after the other? (It can be verified that most all segmentation of core columns happened at or very near their original welds. In the photo "view 5", you can see this happening right before your eyes.)

If you can answer the 2 questions posted above, it is your moral responsibility to make you findings public, or at least get them to our researchers.

My answer: as I proposed already, they probably used a combination of two techniques, first lower a thermitic mixture to the bottom of the hollow core-column parts (three stories high, each), then lower a thermobaric steel-shattering device on top of the thermitic mixture, which thermitic mixture is made in such a manner, that it will explode when the pressure on it will exceed a certain threshold.
You then have a double-edged "sword", to be certain that one or the other will severe those columns at their bases, as can be seen in that View 5.
And "paint" a thin layer of the same pressure triggered thermitic mixture below the floor plates with the cement on it, which could be done while doing "maintenance work" inside the ceiling spaces.
When the natural gravitational collapse set in, triggered by the first column welds destruction, the pressure and/or friction of the collapsing debris would set-off the floor-plates "paint".

EDIT: did anybody ever come up with ONE picture of a floor plate with cement on it, found afterwards in the rubble piles of one of the three demolished towers? I have never ever seen one, not even a small part of one.
There should have been hundreds laying around, expelled just as we saw lots of debris being shot sideways in the debris clouds racing down. NOT ONE PIECE of them.

Originally posted by turbofan

I've already studied the paper, the process, the science. There is no need to question it.

XRD is not required to test the Al and Fe elements found in the dust samples. Jones/Farrer did several tests
to confirm their results.

Ok, I have the answer I expected.

You have no interest in using the state of the art test to determine if the elements came from thermxte, or nanuthermxte, or whatever flavor of the month that Jones, etc claim to have.

That makes you, contrary to your claim, a dishonest researcher and a fraud.

Thx for the admission.

Bomb Distribution and Sequencing Modelling.

This is a plausible attack scenario :

In this essay I show where bombs could be placed to create the type of “collapse” that we actually witnessed.

These are very simplified models. They take advantage of the welded connections along the core columns.

All 47 core columns have their weld connections at the exact same elevations, separated by about 36 feet vertically, all the way up each building.

This means that all core column welds exist only on distinct horizontal planes. These planes are vertically separated by about 36 feet.

By attacking and separating all welds on 2 adjacent horizontal planes collapse can be initiated.

This type of attack can produce the damage to core box column sections that we see in the rubble. And as we have discussed before, we clearly see the overwhelming majority of core box column sections severed at or very near their original welds.

As I mentioned many times in other essays, most every core box column section seen in the debris and clean-up seemed to be broken at or near the original weld surfaces.

Each box column section was originally delivered to the construction site in about 36 foot lengths. 36 feet spans roughly 3 floors in most of the building (see the essay “Floor Heights and Weld Elevations”).

Therefore, these bombs would be placed at or near the welds of each column, once every 3 floors.

A workable model of the elevations of each weld can be found in the “Weld Elevation” essay mentioned before.

Most of these bombs can be placed from the elevator shafts.

The 24 outermost core columns directly support the inside part of the floors for all the open office space surrounding the core structure. This is a very important point. This is explained in the "analysis tools" essays. Please refer to them to better understand this structural aspect of the office flooring.
-snip-
The following bomb placement model comes close to explaining all features observed in the demolitions.



This is drawn over the 36th fl core plan.

Notice there are 32 bombs total. Every column in rows 500, 600, 900 and 1000 are targeted while not one column in rows 700 and 800 is targeted

Absolutely every targeted column is accessible through elevator shafts.

The bombs are placed every third floor, close to the weld planes.

Could not have said it any better, have said it before, approximately the same, without knowing this man's reasoning and essays, so we seem to think along the same lines.

reply to post by Joey Canoli


The Problem With Microspheres.

Criticism of Nanothermite Research.

That should give you both something to chew on, and to debate further.
I still see that picture of those spire columns fall apart, with the smoking ends, and do not feel there is more to say.
And see my above post.

reply to post by Joey Canoli


More like; it makes me a sensible researcher.

You take a chip and put it within a DSC machine and an iron rich sphere appears.

No need for your test.

Obvious by your comments you don't understand how this sort of process takes place, "Joey Canoli"

That's the problem with half of this forum and public in general (lack of scientific understanding and study).

We do not need to talk about thermite or laser painting to discredit the official tale. Here is all it takes.

Official tale: While the steele did not burn over 1000 degrees, it burned hot enough to lose most its strentgh at 600-800 degrees.

Normal Person: How come all those tons of steele that were heating up to 800 degrees did not set the towers ablaze from top to bottom, or reduced anybody who did not make it out in time to ash?

OT: ....

Originally posted by turbofan

No need for your test.

Of course not.

You don't want to shatter your delusions by doing it, nor do you even want to examine whether or not XRD is the accepted method used by any analytic lab.

No surprises there. You will, of course, continue to deny the value of this test, and blindly accept the flawed results of a group of people that are clearly not interested in real science.

And here I thought that you might actually have a smattering of honesty after the Balsamo thingy. Guess you learned your lesson there, eh sporto?

Originally posted by LaBTop

I still see that picture of those spire columns fall apart, with the smoking ends, and do not feel there is more to say.

No, there's something that needs to be said.

To believe that it is smoke, and reject the obviousness that it is merely drywall dust (the core columns were fire proofed with drywall) proves you lack critical thinking ability, and will support any stundielicious notion that supports any wacked out theory about thermxte, or nanu nanu thermxte.

Even though Jones himself has admitted that his "find" wouldn't do a damn thing to the steel, and would be used as some sort of fuse for conventional explosives.

So you disagree with Jones? You think he's wrong? You think he doesn't know what he's talking about?

The sane and rational do. Welcome to our side.

reply to post by Joey Canoli


Hey "Joey" when you are educated enough to debate the science of the spheres, let me know.

Until then, read this:

Your test is redundant. It is not needed to arrive at the conclusion already made.

Thanks.

Originally posted by turbofan

Your test is redundant. It is not needed to arrive at the conclusion already made.

No, it would give conclusive results about whether or not the Fe and Al came from whatever flavor of the month thermxte that Jones is claiming.

So it would be contradictory to the entire sham study, and give the correct analysis. This is why you are too skeered to even make a phone call to find out.

Very telling.

reply to post by Joey Canoli


Jones compared the composition of the pre/post DSC with Tillotson's results.

The data is already available. Read the paper and learn something. Study LLNL's nano thermite data.

Guess what? Your test is redundant.

reply to post by turbofan


I find it amazing thay despite truther claims of their desire to bring "someone" to trial over 9/11, when there is a definitive test for thermxte, admissable in court, that they run away from it.

Guess the TM is just all full of hot air, more interested in bayoneting scarecrows than actually doing what they claim to want.

www.monbiot.com...

"The 9/11 conspiracy theories are a displacement activity. A displacement activity is something you do because you feel incapable of doing what you ought to do. A squirrel sees a larger squirrel stealing its hoard of nuts. Instead of attacking its rival, it sinks its teeth into a tree and starts ripping it to pieces. Faced with the mountainous challenge of the real issues we must confront, the chickens in the “truth” movement focus instead on a fairytale, knowing that nothing they do or say will count, knowing that because the perpetrators don’t exist, they can’t fight back. They demonstrate their courage by repeatedly bayoneting a scarecrow."