You think you deserve to earn more than $200k a year?

reply to post by kidkboom

If I were to sit here today and condone the segregative mindset of the Middle Fish, I would be playing into the hands of the Big Fish. And though I respect your opinion, I do NOT agree with the mASTERS. I am clearly in no position to rival any of these mammoth forces today. And, I am alone. But in another sense, I am not alone. And in that sense, a potential army of like-minded wakers stands with me.

The most important thing we can do, from this position, is to come to a common ground, though we don't all share the same view on the details - common enough that our combined footing becomes as stable as it can. That way, when that switch comes all at once, the Plantation you refer to, there will be hope. Many people think I'm crazy when I speak like this, and that's okay for now. But Mr. Orwell was a lot less far off from accurate than he ever knew.

And if you're like me, you've not forgotten: "If there is hope, it lie in the plebes."

I'm a big Orwell fan too, and always loved some of the lines from his 1984, including your quote.

I used to think that statement was true, because, well, it just HAD to be true! But the more I learned about the cage being fashioned for us, the more likely it seemed that our chances of escape were being systematically eliminated. That's a very "negative" assessment obviously, and surely there is still "time", but when I look at the immense "progress" our masters have made in such a short time, there isn't as much hope as I once had.

And yet, you make a constructive suggestion. What might be the "common ground" that we might share?

This almost sounds like the makings for a good thread! Certainly, those on ATS already are better prepared to explore such a concept, and I'd like to think that I am open enough to think it might be worthwhile.

We all have many differences, ways of looking at our world, but perhaps we plebes can find something of a common ground, before it's too late.

Be sure to let me know if you start such a thread, I'll be happy to support your endeavor.

JR

reply to post by JR MacBeth


I think the op is questioning if people that make 200k or more disserves thier salary based on how hard they work vs low end work that pays 10-20k?

Thats rather subjective. Does busting your ass working 2 jobs for less than 20k a year is hard? Sacrificing food,better schooling,health care,children's food, any entertainment to pay the rent and keep the lights on hard?
Getting evicted because an employer played games with your sub 20 hour schedual.

No one disserves thier wage. Its all luck,right place right time,hard work at the right time, and the cards that were dealt to you. You telling me a kid growing up in a inner city hell hole has the same opportunities to make 200k/yr as a well off kid in a SAFE subburb?

Inner city schools are garbage. Thats why people don't excel in them. Low property tax == shatty schools. High property tax == Good schools.
The poor are screwed before they even started to play "the game".

reply to post by byteshertz


You sound like you would enjoy a life of Cynicism. Have a read from Wiki on this Grecian school of philosophy:

Cynicism


In my opinion no one deserves what they have. We are all random events caused by and constantly influenced by the vagaries and infinite possibilities of a vast and uncaring universe. I am not worth $200,000, $2000 or even $.02. There is no way to solve the worth of a life. No system current or future will adequately solve the question of worth to everyone's satisfaction.

That said, we all have a measure of control over not only our own material destiny but that of those around us. I was taught when young not to complain about my own lack of anything material as there is always someone more needy. That's easy to comprehend and prove. We see it daily. What you have and are capable of creating and earning is a vast fortune. You are far richer than many. Are you satisfied with what you've done for the lives of those less fortunate than you? Are you a daily example of spreading material wealth and comfort at least the wealth and comfort that you control? Is there a crumb in your pantry to spare for one who hungers? Is there a coat in your closet to warm one who is cold? Is there a place beneath your roof to house one who is homeless?

This is not an attack on you. This is just the way of the world. There is now and always will be someone with more and someone with less than you. Are you any more deserving of life than one who dies seconds after birth? Of course not but we rarely "count our blessings" to such an extent. Although it would seem only reasonable that we should. We are much more willing to count and envy the blessings of others rather than share our own. Our frustration comes from the guilt of having not adequately shared the vastness of our own wealth, as insignificant as that might seem. That sharing would mean the world to another and likely be a lesson to all.

Originally posted by John_Rodger_Cornman
reply to post by JR MacBeth

 

I think the op is questioning if people that make 200k or more disserves thier salary based on how hard they work vs low end work that pays 10-20k?

Thats rather subjective. Does busting your ass working 2 jobs for less than 20k a year is hard? Sacrificing food,better schooling,health care,children's food, any entertainment to pay the rent and keep the lights on hard?
Getting evicted because an employer played games with your sub 20 hour schedual.

No one disserves thier wage. Its all luck,right place right time,hard work at the right time, and the cards that were dealt to you. You telling me a kid growing up in a inner city hell hole has the same opportunities to make 200k/yr as a well off kid in a SAFE subburb?

Inner city schools are garbage. Thats why people don't excel in them. Low property tax == shatty schools. High property tax == Good schools.
The poor are screwed before they even started to play "the game".

edit on 14-11-2010 by John_Rodger_Cornman because: (no reason given)

Yeah, you're right, all pretty subjective, but I'm sure most people see where the OP is coming from. Most have been there at one time or another, or might still be there.

And you're right too about "luck", I see some people posting here who might not give that factor enough weight, but it's probably the biggest of them all. And that shouldn't take anything away from the many hard/smart workers who have posted about their struggle, and their current situation being well-earned. Of course, our own attitudes and efforts are very important, and can indeed make a huge difference in our well-being.

But there is a lot of whining about this screwed up reality, and sometimes in the process, we identify the wrong "enemy". Is our neighbor who drives a better car "our" problem? Or maybe it's the folks who live "up-town", maybe they're the problem? Maybe we should draw a line, and all just agree that people making over $200K each year are the problem?

Obviously not. Most of the time, our biggest problem looks back at us from the mirror, and we waste lots of energy trying to assign "blame" for the many screwed up ("unfair") things in our lives. If we fail to realize that we are often our own biggest "enemy", then what good would it do us if someone literally gave us more money? Like the "hopeless" drug addict, who if given a million, would find himself dead twice as fast as he would have otherwise. The amount of money certainly cannot be the primary concern.

Beyond that, once we get past that which is truly "ours", then we should look outward, look at injustice (economic and otherwise) that may be hurting us all, and look for reasons for the way things are. If we find some of those reasons, then maybe we can hazard a guess at some potential solutions, and at a minimum, share our thoughts with our fellows.

Of course, no one can seem to agree on what the problems are, let alone which might be the biggest ones. kidkboom above alluded to that issue, and I think it might be worth some time trying to find some common ground, at least amongst those of us who have some notion that things aren't quite right. Personally, I'm not terribly optimistic, but it couldn't hurt to see if there is enough common ground really, to somehow be more effective than we are currently.

JR

Originally posted by JR MacBeth

Originally posted by John_Rodger_Cornman
reply to post by JR MacBeth

 

I think the op is questioning if people that make 200k or more disserves thier salary based on how hard they work vs low end work that pays 10-20k?

Thats rather subjective. Does busting your ass working 2 jobs for less than 20k a year is hard? Sacrificing food,better schooling,health care,children's food, any entertainment to pay the rent and keep the lights on hard?
Getting evicted because an employer played games with your sub 20 hour schedual.

No one disserves thier wage. Its all luck,right place right time,hard work at the right time, and the cards that were dealt to you. You telling me a kid growing up in a inner city hell hole has the same opportunities to make 200k/yr as a well off kid in a SAFE subburb?

Inner city schools are garbage. Thats why people don't excel in them. Low property tax == shatty schools. High property tax == Good schools.
The poor are screwed before they even started to play "the game".

edit on 14-11-2010 by John_Rodger_Cornman because: (no reason given)

Yeah, you're right, all pretty subjective, but I'm sure most people see where the OP is coming from. Most have been there at one time or another, or might still be there.

And you're right too about "luck", I see some people posting here who might not give that factor enough weight, but it's probably the biggest of them all. And that shouldn't take anything away from the many hard/smart workers who have posted about their struggle, and their current situation being well-earned. Of course, our own attitudes and efforts are very important, and can indeed make a huge difference in our well-being.

But there is a lot of whining about this screwed up reality, and sometimes in the process, we identify the wrong "enemy". Is our neighbor who drives a better car "our" problem? Or maybe it's the folks who live "up-town", maybe they're the problem? Maybe we should draw a line, and all just agree that people making over $200K each year are the problem?

Obviously not. Most of the time, our biggest problem looks back at us from the mirror, and we waste lots of energy trying to assign "blame" for the many screwed up ("unfair") things in our lives. If we fail to realize that we are often our own biggest "enemy", then what good would it do us if someone literally gave us more money? Like the "hopeless" drug addict, who if given a million, would find himself dead twice as fast as he would have otherwise. The amount of money certainly cannot be the primary concern.

Beyond that, once we get past that which is truly "ours", then we should look outward, look at injustice (economic and otherwise) that may be hurting us all, and look for reasons for the way things are. If we find some of those reasons, then maybe we can hazard a guess at some potential solutions, and at a minimum, share our thoughts with our fellows.

Of course, no one can seem to agree on what the problems are, let alone which might be the biggest ones. kidkboom above alluded to that issue, and I think it might be worth some time trying to find some common ground, at least amongst those of us who have some notion that things aren't quite right. Personally, I'm not terribly optimistic, but it couldn't hurt to see if there is enough common ground really, to somehow be more effective than we are currently.

JR

I agree stop whining and vote to remove ALL government. Stop whining and stop buying non-publically owned corporate products and stop using thier banks and institutions.

Stop using thier fake monies and fake democracy.

Stop whining and stop voting in thier political theatre and kick them out of the country.

Originally posted by kiwifoot
I don't begrudge people earning 200k, I don't have a problem with folk earning 500k. However, when I see hedge fund managers, bankers and traders making 2-150 MILLION for GAMBLING, that's all it is, then I think enough is enough.

Gambling with other people's money, no less, and still taking their skim even if they lose it.

I think there are people who deserve over 200K a year. Example. Your a single parent and have 5 kids, one gets cancer and has to get treatment and now needs specialty care and drugs. You also have 4 other kids who all want to go to university one wants to be a doctor one a lawyer and the other 2 don't know what to do yet. You have 5 mouths to feed including you, need a larger house to accomodate your children and want them to go to university and that costs alot. you also have the scenario of one child being sick and needing more care, your also a single parent. So does that mean your family should suffer because 200k a year is enough? for some yes others no. I say you make what you work hard to make. My own mother a single mother works 80 hours a week and has worked hard to get to where she is. Yeah its not fair some people make more than others but there is always some one below and above you. Life isn't fair, plain and simple. Some people are born into wealth some are not so lucky. life is a game of chance.

Great Thread! Lots of great debate on this thread.

I earn over $100k and have earned $200k in the past and do deserve it. I've spent my adult life building a business to give my family a better life and to leave a legacy. I've helped 100's of famililies through my business (financial industry), and recruited and trained and licensed dozens of men and women for careers in this induatry. I plan to make sure my siblings are looked after and certain organizations are funded. I expect my income to rise sharply in the coming years. I've had times in my life when i couldn't afford food, so i know what that's like.

I've put in long hours year after year and WORKED ON ME. I firmly believe you will earn up to your level of belief in yourself, and rarely above it. Why do they pay average people an average income? Because they are average! I was average, I'm not any longer.

I've had NO MONEY and now I HAVE MONEY. All other things being equal, I'll take the money. Money is how we keep score in North America, and my hard work and long hours paying the price up front is letting me buy my life back.

ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE can move from where they are at to where they want to be. WHAT are YOU willing to do to change your life?

After reading through this thread and all the valid opinions/points on both sides, I'm divided. My only problem with the OP is the $200k mark. Even here in the Midwest, $200k/year isn't all that much, although still way more than most people make.

I've noticed a lot of posts stating greed/hoarding is "human nature" or "the law of the jungle" etc. The way I see it, humans have for millenia modified/manipulated nature for our needs. With all the intelligence and technology we have today, we have the means to change human nature. Sure, lots of animals thrive because of survival of the fittest and that's great, but lots of animals also wouldn't think twice about cannibalizing their own kind to get ahead. I like to think us humans are able to rise above our own self interests and look at the bigger picture, which is global society as a whole.

"A society is ultimately judged by how it treats its weakest and most vulnerable members." Could only find this quote attributed to anonymous so if anybody could tell me who originally quoted this it would be great. I think this pretty much sums up my position on this subject.

Also found this great quote while looking for the above quote: In a country well governed poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed wealth is something to be ashamed of. -Confucius

My 2 cents.

Originally posted by thov420
In a country well governed poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed wealth is something to be ashamed of. -Confucius

My 2 cents.

Awesome Confucius quote, hadn't heard that before.

Must be Singapore's motto!

reply to post by The Wave


The problems of the current generation are inherited from the prior generation.

You have no right calling us whiners, when you and your peers ruined the economy to it's current point.

reply to post by fonenyc


Well put!

reply to post by Rhebefree


Are you outta touch with reality? The game will always be there even if you remove the players. Remove all the middle and lower class and the upper class will just eat away at each other forcing there to be another middle and lower class. the middle and lower class is needed for the dynamics of this game. The sooner you realize that the better off you'll be. If you can't beat them, join them. Millions have said it and so have I. And you don't have to go to college to be wealthy. I barely graduated high school, now i make more then my family combined and i'm not even 30 yet. And yet you tell me that i don't deserve my money. And somehow your gonna bring up exploding babies into this convo. Well if you don't like exploding babies in africa then maybe you should play the game, get some money, and go defuse the baby bomb.

reply to post by joeshsamp


So how about you let us idiots in on the secret then? How does one without some degree go about making a good ammount of money? Seriously, I am just starting over again, we have our business registered, have been giving our cards out to every store that sells flooring, so far 4 small jobs in a little over a year. Not much more we can do than what we are doing. We spent our last savings on oil for the winter, the rest we spent paying off the government thugs to get our business registered, and account set up and all that.

Wealth should be capped. Jesus said so.

Under Roosevelt, very high earners were taxed 80%+. These days that would be called Communism. Duh.

reply to post by rizla


The problem is that, excluding those that worked their way from the bottom to the top, most people with lots of money take many things they have for granted. They do not really understand what it's like to battle their way through financial hurdles and have to budget for things. They don't understand the pain that mortgage rate rises have on the family that has only been able to make ends meet the last few months. They don't understand the stress placed on people who have to keep up with utility bill rises that are disproportionate to pay rises they might receive per year.

Not trying to demonise people that are financially well-off, because there are some very generous people out there that want to help those who are less fortunate. I am just saying that, like most circumstances in life, unless you have lived in the shoes of somebody that struggles financially, then you probably do not understand how lucky you are to have what you do until it is taken way from you.

reply to post by rizla


I vote we take back the two bailouts, and use the 2 trillion to revive Roosevelt.

Originally posted by SevenThunders
Complete nonsense. It's not a zero sum game. The money you earn is not depriving someone else. Case in point: who gets more done, a factory worker in a fully automated, modern factory, or a slave in the stone age era? What is the ratio of the value of the goods produced between the two?

Not true. At any moment in time there is a finite amount of money. However inflation always increases the amount of money which gets distorted so that at time t2 a larger proportion of the total is in the hands of fewer people. This is why deflation is so scary for the money markets. High inflation prevents the supression of low wages hence why that is feared also. Keep low inflation and anti inflation policies and then you can suppress lower wages to "control inflation".

Originally posted by SevenThunders
Supposing you worked in a state of the art factory and got paid $150. However the value of the products that you produced (which didn't exist prior to your efforts), was 10 times that at $1500. Have you sucked out and forever destroyed $150 from the worlds economy, or did you just add $1350 to the total net worth of the world?

Thanks for the numbers. As I said at time t2 with medium inflation lets say 2-3% over 10 years and two cycles of wage restraint! We end up with pay of $165 and products worth $1950. So who pockets the increase of $300?

By the way who pockets the $1350 of your original example?

Originally posted by SevenThunders
That's why its not a zero sum game and making money is not stealing from someone else. That concept is a hellish one that comes from Marxist and Leninists who want to destroy everything so that they can be your overlords. That's how the liberals prosper. They know that if they can make you unemployed and dependent upon their miserable handouts, they will have your vote for life.

Marx's analysis was spot on but his solution to the problem was extreme and took no account of human greed. In a true Marxist state there are no overlords. There has never been a true communist oacstate. Those supposed communist states have been dictatorships with money supply controlled by and totally owned by the elite few. Perfect facists .....quite ironic really!

I love the totally unrealistic perceptoions of the economy. If everyone worked to improve their lot we would all be wealthy individuals. What total nonsense. Who cleans the toilets? The rubbish off the streets? Empties dustbins etc etc. Nobody with money , nobody with money ever will so how the hell do all those rather unpleasant jobs get done in the ever so perfect we are all rich world of fantasy?

Finitie resources at any moment in time ensures finite distribution of said resources. There will always be people at the bottom. A good anaolgy is a football coach. Whenever a team gets relegated the manager gets fired and yet every year a team MUST get relegated. There is also a finite supply of managers and yet those smae "failed" managers end up managing different clubs that don't get relegated.

The "system" dynamically reallocates winners and losers SOMEBODY EVERY YEAR LOSES! Likewise with all economies there will always be poor people. Our humanity dictates how poor those poor will be. The US isn't high up on that regard.

Originally posted by WisdomSeeker

I've put in long hours year after year and WORKED ON ME. I firmly believe you will earn up to your level of belief in yourself, and rarely above it. Why do they pay average people an average income? Because they are average! I was average, I'm not any longer.

I've had NO MONEY and now I HAVE MONEY. All other things being equal, I'll take the money. Money is how we keep score in North America, and my hard work and long hours paying the price up front is letting me buy my life back.

ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE can move from where they are at to where they want to be. WHAT are YOU willing to do to change your life?

I completely agree. We live in a capitalistic society where special skills are demanded more highly than average skills. Life is all about choices and risks. I have risked my future by going into debt to go to college BECAUSE i want to be a specialized worker that will make more than the average laborer. I completely agree that we live in a society where we have an upper, lower, and middle class (though it is slowly dwindling). Thats the way the world works. If there is not any incentives for the harder jobs that require vast amounts of schooling, why become a doctor? or a lawyer?

You're under the impression that success = failure of others?

You obviously have no idea how work works.

My friend I did not say "the less someone else makes" I said for your wealth to increase you must directly or indirectly take that wealth from others

That's not how it works.

Companies hire people who will produce for them and out of that company's earnings comes your pay. You're not "taking" anything from anyone else. You're being compensated for your time, because time is valuable.

You also make the point that someone working 14 hours a day as a janitor making 30,000 dollars a year is equivalent to say a software engineer putting in 14 hours a day who makes 50,000 bucks a year. Saying that this dynamic isn't fair.

Should the janitor worker make what the software engineer makes just cause they work the same amount of hours per day? Nope. you earn what the market pays for the skills you have. It is UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL to change this circumstance through education or other training. These are all personal choices.

I would not pay a janitor 50,000 a year-on par with the engineer, because the skills of the engineer are more valuable to me if I'm running a software company. The janitor that cleans the offices where my engineers work didn't take the job thinking his work was more important to the bottom line of the company than the engineer. And anyone who thinks so is bound to fail in business and in life.

You don't DESERVE anything but OPPORTUNITY. If you don't take advantage of opportunities, too bad, so sad.

If the market calls for a salary of 300,000 a year for a particular skill set that I need, I will gladly pay it. The worker in question would be wholly entitled to every dime I pay for the work he/she puts in. So yes, you do deserve ONLY what you work for, no more no less.