Freemasonry, secret or not?

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
This page says that Pinochet was a 2nd degree Mason:

The page is incorrect.

This page says that he received the grade of "Captain" and was kicked out for nonattendance and nonpayment of dues:

There is not a grade of "captain" in Freemasonry, and second degree members are not required to pay dues.

Castro didn't tear down the Grand Orient of Cuba, at which he was initiated during his early 20's.

Castro was never initiated into any Masonic organization, nor did any "Grand Orient of Cuba" exist on the island. The Grand Lodge of Cuba, which existed then and still exists today, has never counted Fidel Castro as a member.

The Bolsheviks were sponsored by Trotsky, who was a French lodge Freemason.

Trotsky never joined any Lodge in France, nor anywhere else. In his autobiography, "My Life", Trotsky says that he studied Freemasonry while in prison, but found Marxism a more suitable tool of establishing brotherhood.

Conspiracy theorists such as Albert Mackey, right?

While Mackey was not a conspiracy theorist, many of his ideas are outdated, and were never accepted by actual historians and scholars.

Wikipedia is not 100% correct. You should realize this.

I used Wikipedia as a reference, not as a source. I'm very familiar with ramsay's career.

Free masons are No more a Secret,i am here to reveal your true Purpose those who you call masters are not really helping you Guys Truth is out and it will set you free.
Visit this thread.

Truth About 13 and 666 Carbon atomic structure

reply to post by Arcot


I guess you had to spill the beans.

interesting theory, and would be wonderful should it be real. being as it's just a theory, and one that is "out there" just a bit, I will wait to see if we get instructions for making carbon 7. If I get the step by step's, I will post them for all. If not, I will continue as before.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Arcot

 

I guess you had to spill the beans.

interesting theory, and would be wonderful should it be real. being as it's just a theory, and one that is "out there" just a bit, I will wait to see if we get instructions for making carbon 7. If I get the step by step's, I will post them for all. If not, I will continue as before.

If you are able achieve this you have just created a Philosopher's Stone.
This Truth will set free all masons. All humanity is a mason you should have Love and compassion towards nature and universe
Word masons has hidden meaning is -Ma- is called Mother Earth sons are Children's of earth.
so we all are children's of Earth hence we all are Masons.
Freemasons word is a call for help when insiders started to manipulate masons(children's of earth),one of spiritual masters has kept this name and formed a group called Freemasons to Free all masons hence one day all masons will be free that day is not far children's of earth will be free hence humanity is set free this is the Goal of all Masons set Humanity free.
We all are brothers and sisters please understand your purpose
Spread this to all Masons.

Originally posted by TheLoneArcher
reply to post by vcwxvwligen

 

I am certainly not anti-anti-Mason. I am here to help those that are not Masons or are anti-Mason understand that we are not evil, devil worshipers, or trying to takle over the world.

I for one, and I hope I can speak for other Masons here, am here to help.

Great. You should help some of your brethren who insist on engaging in personal attacks after running out of things to say.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
This page says that Pinochet was a 2nd degree Mason:

The page is incorrect.

It's incorrect because the author never entered a lodge?

This page says that he received the grade of "Captain" and was kicked out for nonattendance and nonpayment of dues:

There is not a grade of "captain" in Freemasonry, and second degree members are not required to pay dues.

Maybe not in the Scottish Rite or whatever group you're in. Freemasonry isn't just the Scottish Rite and the York Rite and I'm sure you know this.
William Morgan wasn't called "captain" because he wanted to be on a cereal box.

Castro was never initiated into any Masonic organization, nor did any "Grand Orient of Cuba" exist on the island. The Grand Lodge of Cuba, which existed then and still exists today, has never counted Fidel Castro as a member.

Well, I guess that's just the personal opinion of one man. Right?

Trotsky never joined any Lodge in France, nor anywhere else. In his autobiography, "My Life", Trotsky says that he studied Freemasonry while in prison, but found Marxism a more suitable tool of establishing brotherhood.

That doesn't prove that he was never initiated.

Conspiracy theorists such as Albert Mackey, right?

While Mackey was not a conspiracy theorist, many of his ideas are outdated, and were never accepted by actual historians and scholars.

Of course he wasn't a conspiracy theorist, because he was a 33rd Freemason. He wrote about the Jesuits creating the Lodge of Perfection, and how it was adapted to make the Scottish Rite.

You wanna know what's outdated? A lot of the Masonic apologies that I've seen here and heard elsewhere. I haven't seen or heard a single apology that I didn't read in a book from the 1800's. The apologies are fine, but for some reason, the facts are invalid, especially those which connect the Freemasons to other groups or to 19th-century occultists. This is cherry-picking as far as I'm concerned.

Wikipedia is not 100% correct. You should realize this.

I used Wikipedia as a reference, not as a source. I'm very familiar with ramsay's career.

Apparently more familiar than the Freemasons whom I cited, and happen to disagree with you.

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
reply to post by network dude

 

It seems like you have an aversion to frank sexual discussion.

The connection between the occult and sexual expression is an intimate one, and you are going to have to confront it sooner or later.

Apparently I am not well versed in the sex magick part of masonry should it exist. I have never heard of any sexual connection either with our symbolism of actions. Masonry being a fraternity, and me being heterosexual, well, lets just say not compatible. I have heard all about sex magic with other occult schools such as OTO but even then, only by people here discussing it. So in conclusion, I don't fear the conversation, I just don't see it's relevance.

Maybe because you have gotten a censored commentary.

The Tau displayed upon the Apron worn by those of Master rank is a form of the Cross, and also of the Hammer of Thor, of Scandinavian religion. It is displayed triply, to signify that the wearer has brought his three lower natures (physical, emotional, and mental) under complete control ; that he has crucified them and keeps them repressed by the hammer of a strong will.

The further important point should be noticed that the Apron covers the creative, generative organ:, of the body ; and it is especially to these that the significance of the Tau attaches. Spiritual self building and the erection of the "superstructure" are dependent upon the supply of creative energy available from the generative nervous centre, the "power-house" of the human organism. Thence that energy passes upwards through other ganglionic "transformers" and, reaching the brain, becomes finally sublimated and transformed to consciousness. Conservation of that energy is therefore indispensable both for generating consciousness and providing the material for the finer vehicle or "superstructure" in which that consciousness may function ; the life-energy is always creative, either in the direction of physical propagation or in that of super-physical up-building ; hence the importance attached in religious spheres to celibacy.

W. L. Wilmhurst - Masonic Initiation

Originally posted by wcitizen
What would be lost by transparency? If masonry is as good as you allege, why keep it so secret. Why the secret handshakes? Why not simply wear a badge. Wearing a badge would cut through the widespread belief that masonry is corrupt and takes care of its own above all else - such as in a court of law, or in appointing political positions.

Why not be transparent, declare you are a mason through a badge, for example, and let the world see your integrity?

You sound a lot like Adolph Hitler, but to address your idea, most Masons have Masonic rings, or decals on their car.

The modes of recognition were for protection in a time when the church was out of control. It is tradition.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Maybe not in the Scottish Rite or whatever group you're in. Freemasonry isn't just the Scottish Rite and the York Rite and I'm sure you know this.
William Morgan wasn't called "captain" because he wanted to be on a cereal box.

So what group does the rank of just "Captain" belong to that Morgan belonged to? As far as I can see though, he was said to have been a Captain in the War of 1812.

In the 3 bodies of the York Rite you do have a: Royal Arch Captain, Captain of the Guard, and Captain General.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Well, I guess that's just the personal opinion of one man. Right?

No, that's fact, and Masonic Light is probably one of the great sources of Masonic history on this site.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
That doesn't prove that he was never initiated.

Then please enlighten us with the Initiation dates.

Originally posted by Taskism

Originally posted by wcitizen
What would be lost by transparency? If masonry is as good as you allege, why keep it so secret. Why the secret handshakes? Why not simply wear a badge. Wearing a badge would cut through the widespread belief that masonry is corrupt and takes care of its own above all else - such as in a court of law, or in appointing political positions.

Why not be transparent, declare you are a mason through a badge, for example, and let the world see your integrity?

You sound a lot like Adolph Hitler, but to address your idea, most Masons have Masonic rings, or decals on their car.

The modes of recognition were for protection in a time when the church was out of control. It is tradition.

edit on 12/2/1010 by Taskism because: (no reason given)

If you took the trouble to read what I was saying, you would see exactly the spirit in which I was speaking.
It's despicable to use that analogy, but it shows how brainwashed you are into the gutter press's way of distorting things in the name of sensationalism. It's the masons themselves who use 'secret' signs to recognise each other - most of the public wouldn't be aware of the secret handshakes, etc, which masons use...so I was simply throwing up suggestions which would mean that everyone knew where they stood...not just those aware of the secrets - in order to make it impossible for the 'fraternity' to abuse their connections - as I believe they often do.

Totalitarianism is always developed in secret. The Illuminati plan their Agenda in secret. Secrecy is ruining and destroying our world, so yes, I take a strong stand against secrecy in today's world. If you consider that to be like Naziism, so be it.... some people find the truth a threat too.

Many people are genuinely concerned about a masonic fraternity which they believe is one of the elements which undermines the fabric of fariness, openess and honesty in our society. If you were the good guys you purport to be, that would be of conern to you and you would look to find ways to genuinely show people it's not the case....but no, just call others Nazis that's a much better way of dealing with the issue.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
It's incorrect because the author never entered a lodge?

It is incorrect because, for example, Pinochet was not a Mason.

Maybe not in the Scottish Rite or whatever group you're in. Freemasonry isn't just the Scottish Rite and the York Rite and I'm sure you know this.
William Morgan wasn't called "captain" because he wanted to be on a cereal box.

Morgan was called "captain" because he (falsely) had claimed to have been a captain in the United States Army.

Well, I guess that's just the personal opinion of one man. Right?

No. Facts and opinions are different things.

That doesn't prove that he was never initiated.

Trotsky never claimed to have been initiated.

Of course he wasn't a conspiracy theorist, because he was a 33rd Freemason. He wrote about the Jesuits creating the Lodge of Perfection, and how it was adapted to make the Scottish Rite.

And Mackey has been proven incorrect. He confused the Clermont Chapter of Rose Croix with the Jesuit College of Clermont.

Link

Originally posted by wcitizen
What would be lost by transparency? If masonry is as good as you allege, why keep it so secret. Why the secret handshakes? Why not simply wear a badge. Wearing a badge would cut through the widespread belief that masonry is corrupt and takes care of its own above all else - such as in a court of law, or in appointing political positions.

Why not be transparent, declare you are a mason through a badge, for example, and let the world see your integrity?

Originally posted by wcitizen
If you took the trouble to read what I was saying, you would see exactly the spirit in which I was speaking.
It's despicable to use that analogy, but it shows how brainwashed you are into the gutter press's way of distorting things in the name of sensationalism. It's the masons themselves who use 'secret' signs to recognise each other - most of the public wouldn't be aware of the secret handshakes, etc, which masons use...so I was simply throwing up suggestions which would mean that everyone knew where they stood...not just those aware of the secrets - in order to make it impossible for the 'fraternity' to abuse their connections - as I believe they often do.

Totalitarianism is always developed in secret. The Illuminati plan their Agenda in secret. Secrecy is ruining and destroying our world, so yes, I take a strong stand against secrecy in today's world. If you consider that to be like Naziism, so be it.... some people find the truth a threat too.

Many people are genuinely concerned about a masonic fraternity which they believe is one of the elements which undermines the fabric of fariness, openess and honesty in our society. If you were the good guys you purport to be, that would be of conern to you and you would look to find ways to genuinely show people it's not the case....but no, just call others Nazis that's a much better way of dealing with the issue.

Taskism is right, this sounds very much like something from Nazi Germany. Why stop at Freemasons wearing badges? Why not force church/synagogue/mosque goers to wear badges so we know what Judges will give a fellow church goer a little leniency during trial or throw the whole thing? Or letting their religious faith affect their political position.

At least in America, I have the Freedom to Assemble and as such I will never be forced into a compulsory registry. I will not wear your version of a scarlet letter because you don't get my Fraternity. Maybe instead of a badge you'd mark us with a numbered tattoo. The road you are wanting us to travel down is one towards tyranny and fascism.

Using secret signs/modes of recognition is not illegal, immoral, and dishonest. Plus, it wouldn't be a secret if everyone knew them now would it.

Necessity/protection of the people is the cry and plea of the tyrant. And as our good Brother, and Founding Father, Ben Franklin wished to be our national motto, "Resistance to Tyranny is Obedience to God".

Everyone keeps secrets from others. Don't kid yourself.

What they perceive and what reality is, are two different things. Masons will never give into irrational fear or hatred. If you knew anything about Freemasonry is that it strives for its members to live moral lives; to be fair, honest, and and charitable to their fellow man.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
It's incorrect because the author never entered a lodge?

It is incorrect because, for example, Pinochet was not a Mason.

So are you saying the the author has never entered a lodge, or that it is your personal belief that Pinochet was not a Mason?

Maybe not in the Scottish Rite or whatever group you're in. Freemasonry isn't just the Scottish Rite and the York Rite and I'm sure you know this.
William Morgan wasn't called "captain" because he wanted to be on a cereal box.

Morgan was called "captain" because he (falsely) had claimed to have been a captain in the United States Army.

The degree of "Captain" has existed in Freemasonry, and "Captain" is still a position in the lodge in some degrees.

15th degree initiation:
.
.
.
Captain of Guard - Sovereign Master, there is without one who desires the honor of being admitted into your presence.
Sovereign Master - Who is he?
Captain of Guard - A Jew by nation, a Prince by blood, descendant from the race of David, and tribe of Judah, but a captive and slave by misfortune.
Sovereign Master - What is his name?
Captain of Guard - Zerubbabel.
Sovereign Master - What is his age?
Captain of Guard - Seventy years.
Sovereign Master - What motives bring him hither?
Captain of Guard - The tears and distresses of his brethren.
Sovereign Master - Let him be admitted. (Captain opens the door, the Master of Ceremonies conducts him seven times around the room). By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept when we remembered Zion, we hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof, for there they who carried us away captives required of us a song
.
.
.

Well, I guess that's just the personal opinion of one man. Right?

No. Facts and opinions are different things.

Too bad your facts consist of drive-by denials.

That doesn't prove that he was never initiated.

Trotsky never claimed to have been initiated.

Typical denial

Of course he wasn't a conspiracy theorist, because he was a 33rd Freemason. He wrote about the Jesuits creating the Lodge of Perfection, and how it was adapted to make the Scottish Rite.

And Mackey has been proven incorrect. He confused the Clermont Chapter of Rose Croix with the Jesuit College of Clermont.

Link

That page cites no sources.

According to Heckethorn, the Chapter of Clermont was infiltrated by the Jesuits.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligenThe degree of "Captain" has existed in Freemasonry, and "Captain" is still a position in the lodge in some degrees.

That's not a position in the lodge, that's a role in a play...

Originally posted by vcwxvwligenToo bad your facts consist of drive-by denials.

Too bad your posts consist of fairy tales.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Ah, here we are on page 33. Must be synchronicity I don't know what exactly Freemasonry is about at its core, but the influence of Freemasons at the highest levels of government since the beginning of this country as an independent nation is to see the least, disorienting. Secret societies have no place in a democracy, at least no place in disproportionate positions of influence and it's quite clear that Masons have risen to these positions with astonishing frequency. It is a dynamic worthy of study and it lurks on the shadowed edge of our history everywhere you turn . . . if you care to look with eyes open. All I can say is Masons may be benign for the most part, but it's not those masons I'm concerned with. It's the ones that seek and achieve power and the whole idea that what we might call clubs, were they public, exist as secret societies - circles of power elites - when they cloak themselves in secrecy and exercise political, temporal power from a place of amoral governance and philosophy. We don't need you and we don't want to be ruled those who can't or won't make distinctions between systems of belief or the ethics involved in exercising power. Do what thou wilt, just don't do it in my neighborhood.

Originally posted by ghostpigeon
Ah, here we are on page 33. Must be synchronicity I don't know what exactly Freemasonry is about at its core, but the influence of Freemasons at the highest levels of government since the beginning of this country as an independent nation is to see the least, disorienting.

What Freemasonry is about, at its core, is the equality of man. Period. Masons were at (and perhaps organized) the Boston Tea Party; Masons signed the Declaration of Independence; Masons started our public school; Masons were some of our first elected officials at both the national and state levels.

Masonry has always opposed tyranny, and thus it has always been outlawed by tyrants. Hitler, Mussolini, and Saddam Hussein are a short list of some of the tyrants who have outlawed Masonry under their regimes.

Masons were involved in freeing America from the reign of King George III, and it's rumored (but unproven) that Masons were involved in freeing France from the reign of Louis XVI in the French Revolution.

This is a pretty long list of fighting for the freedom of the individual...

Secret societies have no place in a democracy, at least no place in disproportionate positions of influence and it's quite clear that Masons have risen to these positions with astonishing frequency.

It's fine for you to say the society has no place in democracy, and truth be told, the organization wants no political position. But are you also saying the individual members of a society have no right to democratically elected positions simply because of their associations?

It's the ones that seek and achieve power... when they cloak themselves in secrecy and exercise political, temporal power from a place of amoral governance and philosophy. We don't need you and we don't want to be ruled those who can't or won't make distinctions between systems of belief or the ethics involved in exercising power. Do what thou wilt, just don't do it in my neighborhood.

What about Masonic philosophy is amoral? Any examples? And where would you be if there hadn't been men like them to found the United States?

No way can this page be left on 33,
Where is everybody, annual meeting?

When I review this thread, I'm very tempted to say that if you don't like Freemasonry, then you are perfectly free to leave the United States and move to China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or any of the other places that has officially banned the Fraternity. However, this nation was founded in significant part by men who either were Freemasons or who were well acquainted with the precepts and teachings of the Fraternity through their friendship with men who were members. The United States, as at least one historian has observed, is in no insignificant measure a Masonic Republic in its conception --- notions like holding office for a time and then returning to the ranks, elected leadership, and the equality of men (however imperfectly implemented... we're working towards an ideal) were ideas to which many of our founders became accustomed whilst sitting in Lodge.

You are free to be critical of the Fraternity. In point of fact, I will defend to the death your right to be critical. However, it would be nice if you simply realized that had Masons wanted to rule the United States from the shadows, they could have easily done it. Instead, they chose to bring forth a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the very Masonic proposition that all men are created equal.

Feh -- I guess I'm just made grumpy by the constant repetition of the same silly charges against Freemasonry to which any educated reply is dismissed on the grounds that the informed person is, per se, biased. In this fashion, the conspiracy theorist attempts to insure that the only credible argument comes from people as ignorant as himself.

reply to post by driley


So if the Masonic belief is that all men are created equal, how come you keep secrets from us?
Also, how come women cannot join the fraternity?
Are women created equal also or you forgot about that equation.
Im not from the states, im ok there.
The truth is, no matter how hard yo try in here to convince the members in here, in real life, things are different.