Why does Education in America "suck"???

Simple answer is in one little word.

Unions

The Teachers' Unions of which there are two, one is raving liberal, the other is insanely farther left than the first.

These Teachers' Unions have blocked every attempt at State and Federal controls on teacher quality since 1983 when the National Commission on Excellence in Education pubished "A Nation at Risk".

Keeping it simple, the publication denoted that the main crisis of Education was the teachers, that the teachers should be tested and that they should be payed based on how well they test and so forth.

Boy that really set the teachers in an uproar, their little Unions threatened all hell if they weren't allowed to be fat lazy slobs that could sit on their thumbs all day and receive a pay check.

Oh in case you wanted to know, teachers were given the test not for "consequences" and most failed.

Now, that is the simple answer and here's why.

The Teachers' Unions only block changes to the current problems with education, the more complicated answer involves answering the question "what changes are necessary for better education?"

Well that is where Democrats and Republicans differ.

One problem is "drop-out" rate, how to solve this? Lower standards decreases drop-out rate, increase standards increases drop-out rate. Sort of a lose-lose situation.

Should there be Federal Standards? I don't think so, it creates State's Rights issues.

There's also a problem on agreeing why ethnic groups tend to do more poorly than whites.

Republicans state that these ethnic groups, mainly blacks, have broken homes and little in the way of a family structure. (That's a statistical fact so you self righteous "equal rights" people just shove it).

Democrats argue that Blacks and other ethnics are paid less and thus their schools are funded more poorly and so forth.

Both are probably right, but that's over-simplifying the differences.

None of that really matters simply because again the Teachers' Unions block any attempts at changing the system. Why work harder for the same pay?

There's the problem with education in America in a nut-shell.

Note, it has nothing to do with the Federal Government.

So stop using education as a way of attacking Bush, or attacking Kerry or supporting either of them.

Education policy is largely controlled by local school boards, if you have a problem with education start with your neighbors first. And help break up those stupid flaming-liberal Teachers' Unions.

Sorry, FreeMason,

I am a teacher, and here in GA we do not have unions. We are on our own when it comes to our rights.

marg not every teacher is in a Union, just as not every one is in a Union. I don't see how your not being in a Union has ANY relevancy to my post other than it gave it a boost back to the top of the "recent posts" area.

Now if you are going to try and say that you are evidence that Teachers Unions have not blocked every attempt at reforming the education system to be more demanding, then be my guest. Other-wise I'm not sure if you're just trying to "discredit" my post.

So its basically due to the "Office Space" modivation issue.

I dont think it has anything to do with the teachers. Its the School Boards, the ones that set the curriculum. Teachers dont have time to actually get in depth with kids about subjects that actually make a difference because every day of their year is mapped out with worksheets, overhead transparencies, and everyones favorite...benchmark exams.

The problem I see is parents blaming the teachers for their childrens lack of attention and commitment to the stuff they need to learn. Angry parents get good teachers fired, its the ignorant parents that cant accept their children being the problem that really mess up the system. Education starts at home.

Look at other countries' education system and see how good you have it.

Unions or not - I'm all for testing of teachers and on a regular basis (if this isn't already being done). I mean, shouldn't they have to get certified and then keep updating their knowledge and getting re-certified? Knowledge is always increasing, just look at science and technology. Why on earth shouldn't teachers have to prove that they are up to date on the latest learnings and that they are best equiped to actually "teach". After all, they hold our contry's future in their hands.

Hey bandit- ive got a friend whos dad lives in aruba...im going there next summer...maybe ill see you

My mother is a teacher, its a crazy world seeing it from the view of a student, a teacher, and a parent at the same time. Like bandit said, we do have it awfully good, but as good old citizens of the USA, we always think we're being cheated. But being amazingly good compared to the systems of other countries is no excuse to not make it better.

Scat I'd like to say you were on target but you're not. I knew more history than both my history teachers in High School, to the extent that I ended up often times interrupting them. It was very sad. The problems are deep but the Teachers Unions interrupt the solving of those problems FAR more than partisan politics or citizens' lack of knowledge on the issues.

Ironically Scat, one of the suggestions by "A Nation at Risk" that the Teachers Unions beset upon like a plague, was to increase school length to 7 hours a day and 220 days a year.

Is that enough time for you?

Education does start at home jrod, which could be a great reason why ethnic minorities are poorer at finishing education than whites, however many European nations do not share the same "family structure" that Americans still do, and their education system is judged to be better when it comes to math, writing and science.

So that isn't the "nail" so to speak.

The first problem IS the Teachers Unions, they have resisted changes. As I said the more complicated problem is what those changes really need to be.

I personally think that there needs to be 3 levels of oversite on the teachers, local (parent), state and federal. That way every teacher is being effectively checked that they are teaching, and not just trying to control a group of "punks".

This includes oversite over the entire system, ensuring that kids are appropriately taught respect and responsibility.

But that local governments (school boards) still decide what is best for their children to learn, curriculums and such.

I have an Aunt in Long Island who is a retired elementary teacher. She said that she could not fail students. Parents would raise such a fuss, then the principlal, that is was just easier to pass everyone.

Freemason- what about cirriculum? my understanding of the American education system seems to be that it is a sporadic, up-and-down thign where local boards insert whatever cirriculum they wish. Also, many Americans I have talked to have felt that teachers replaced education about the rest of the world with good old fashioned 'patriotism'.

Just wondering, because several of my American coworkers have brought up this point.

DE

Originally posted by FreeMason
Scat I'd like to say you were on target but you're not.

Ooo harsh. I dont know what it added to the discussion, but harsh.

Is that enough time for you?

yeah, its plenty of time to babysit people who dont want to be there.

I personally think that there needs to be 3 levels of oversite on the teachers, local (parent), state and federal. That way every teacher is being effectively checked that they are teaching, and not just trying to control a group of "punks".

How old are you? Are you sitting in high school as we speak? Teachers are paid to be babysitters my friend, thats not what they want to be. Teachers are radiant when they get to teach their one honors class, with people who actually want to be there. Sounds like you want to make teachers the slaves. Teachers arent allowed to teach anymore friend. Teachers are allowed to,like you said, control a group of punks. Instead of talking to their students, with the STUDENTS starting the conversations, teachers are stuck on "lunch duty" or "hallway monitor duty." The children who WANT to learn are far and in between, and usually too scared to say anything. Maybe you live somewhere else, but where I live, the teachers are already "checked" enough, they're "checked" to the point that they are no longer teachers, they are chaperones who give out page numbers, worksheets, and occasionally read from a lovely script called "cirriculum."

Its not the teachers my friend, its the students.

And dont attack me either, I am a student.

Curme, a counter point that is very important to that, is that the Teachers if graded poorly for how their students performed, would be completely against the policy of LETTING them fail their students. How are you proposing that problem be solved?

Allow teachers to fail students but not be punished themselves? This is primary and secondary education, things the people deem children need, not College which is a persons individual choice. How do you propose to prevent failings of students?

How do you fail a student who doesn't care? What good is that?

Deus, I'm not sure what point you're talking about? That teachers aren't teaching facts, just patriotic garbage?

That is one good reason NOT to "Federalise" the Education system (if that is or isn't your point), because once it is Federalised it will be used as a tool of nationalism as it was in France after WW2, and in Germany, Japan and so forth.

America is a "Union of States" and those states are an amalgamation of societies, so nationalism would destroy that even further, it already has destroyed it significantly. Keeping education at a local policy level is the best way to prevent teachers from teaching how glorious the nation is as a whole.

The people you're talking to probably are from a patriotic region and so that is displayed more.

Scat, "Teachers arent allowed to teach anymore friend."

Teachers don't want to teach anymore, that was my initial point, in 1983 a proposal was sent to the Feds to enforce certain criteria that would be managed at the State and Local levels, to ensure that teachers were teaching. The two Teachers Unions exploded in protest.

And I was a student of High School once too Scat, and not too long ago that it is drastically different than your school now ... though certainly a much less restricted time. lol

A problem is students but not "the" problem. Areas with nuclear families show much better students than areas without. Areas where teachers are more focused on teaching than on trying to keep order are shown to have better results as well.

You have to figure out how to place cause, is it bad students preventing teaching? Or bad teachers?

It varies where you are as it can be both, but generally when one isn't present the other isn't either. That is, if you have bad teachers the teacher is going to lose interest in teaching, if you have bad teachers the student won't want to learn.

So by introducing good teachers (through testing and such as in "A Nation at Risk") you can solve the over-all problem without having to be too invasive as to actually try to alter the "society" in which the student grows-up.

Originally posted by FreeMason


Deus, I'm not sure what point you're talking about? That teachers aren't teaching facts, just patriotic garbage?

That is one good reason NOT to "Federalise" the Education system (if that is or isn't your point), because once it is Federalised it will be used as a tool of nationalism as it was in France after WW2, and in Germany, Japan and so forth.

America is a "Union of States" and those states are an amalgamation of societies, so nationalism would destroy that even further, it already has destroyed it significantly. Keeping education at a local policy level is the best way to prevent teachers from teaching how glorious the nation is as a whole.

The people you're talking to probably are from a patriotic region and so that is displayed more.

I'm trying to bring up two points- that education standards are not the same across the various states, and that there is a distinct lack of education about other nations, cultures, etc. Now, you can't jsut say that America's education system jsut flat otu sucks. I'm sure some states have excellent systems, but others, well, don't. And since there's no universal standard, switching schools can either leave you too far ahead of teh game, or too far behind.

Yeah, sure, patriotism is all fine and good, but it sometimes shouldn't be in the cirriculum, particularly when learning about other countries. I guess that's simply my opinion. Here, we were taught to value prettymuch every culture, and respect that fact that its social nroms weren't our own. My coworker (sharon) brought up the subject due to the content of one of her Canadian son's textbooks, and she was shocked.

"I was never taught like that!" she said, "We only learned about how great America is, not about other places. I didn't even know most of this stuff."

We're taught plenty of Canadian history, but seeing as our country (as well as yours) was founded by and continues to accept a great deal of immigrants, we are taught about various other cultures. In some schools, a sociology credit is mandatory, I think.

DE

Correction in my post:

"That is, if you have bad teachers the teacher is going to lose interest in teaching"

Corrected to "...if you have bad students..."

Teachers of the present chose the life they live. They certainly do want to teach. Unfortunately, they cant anymore, or they will be fired. ive seen it happened and it hurts.

Teachers do inspire students, but with the mindset this generation has grown up in, it basically takes a teacher throwing parties everyday to get kids to be excited about school. But even then, we dont respect them because, as Ferris Beuler beautifully put, you cant respect someone that kisses your ass.

One point I always think about in relation to education, is the stigma that exists about education. As you were saying, teaching responsibility. Many students don't understand the importance of education at a young level. This should probably start with the family, and would take a careful balance of teaching that everything will not be given to someone on a silver platter and that the sky is the limit as far as one's ambitions go.

I always thought it would be a good idea to increase funding for public residential schools and for more private schools. I went to the first free residential public high school in the country. I first found out about it in middle school after I had been missing months of school. The school instantly attracted me to do better until I was able to apply for admission to the school. I knew that if I got into this school, I would have better chances for higher education. The school had an advanced curriculum and almost all the classes were college level taught by phDs.

All in all, I believe there should be more diversity in the options for schooling. Students and their families can look around for the school that meets their needs and interest. But at the same time, kids should be taught at a younger age the importance of education and becoming well-balanced.

One more thing, I remember way back in middle school that teachers were required to take a competency test, only say that they could get paid better. It didn't even matter to the fact that they were allowed to teach!!!!

[edit on 28-6-2004 by Jamuhn]

I think Sharon is exaggerating a bit. I was outraged at how "packed" our Text books were with "other cultures".

For instance, WW2 consisted of 25 pages about, which was about 14 pages of Blacks and Native Americans in the War. Outrageous.

As you said it differs from locale to locale, but this was not our locale's interests, Nevada has a problem of influx of retarded Californians...

I have no problem of teaching "other cultures" but it needs to be done properly, America in many places is being "phased" out and replaced with something else. You wouldn't know a white person fought in WW2 if it weren't for your grandparents where I am from.

I'm also probably somewhat younger than sharon so she's remembering early 80s education late 70s, and I'm not. The change in Education standards in localities would have occured when the "hippy" generation finally came of age. Instead of being balanced (teaching as it is) they just got rid of a lot of pro-American stuff and stuffed pro-Everyone else stuff in its place.

Our Government Book spent more time trying to "convince" the reader that the Iroqois had anything to do with the formation of our Constitution, than it did to try and explain how our Constitution was really formulated.

Then our Government teacher interrupted and said, "I can't really be saying this but the reason that is is our text books are selected based on how many minorities are mentioned and no other criteria. That Iroqois stuff is wrong." That stuck with me lol. So I mean your views are slanted by whatever experiences Sharon had

I had the complete opposite experience.

Education should be chosen locally, after all locals know how to deal with local problems the best. And primary and secondary education is not training you to be a man of the world, but a person of the community you are in.

Higher education is good for that....you need a base of local understanding, and national understanding before you can go learning about other nations and such.

This is my views of course because I'm an "Anti-Federalist" who believes the strongest thing about America was it was a Union of States not that it was governed by Washington D.C.

And I very much want that power of the States to be real, and not "granted".

As for transfers to other schools, America isn't always like that , there is a big scuff about vouchers.

Democrats claim that all the money will be concentrated making the bad schools even more poor, they think this because they think poverty has something to do with education quality. Obviously they've never been to the Mid-West.

Republicans wish to see it allowed as it allows people to choose the BEST school for their children.

The issue is "federal funding" vouchers, do the parents have to pay to switch to another School, or will the Federal government pay for it? After all it is crossing jurisdictions and so forth.

But that's an interesting point you made, guess you Canadians aren't taught enough about America ... it's a land where in many places you can not just waltz into another school that's better

I believe being able to choose your school would create a competition that would force schools to better themselves, in fact it would be a good way without enforced testing and such, to ensure that teachers are doing their jobs. As if they are not competitive (teaching well) they will lose students and their school will lose funding, so the schools will only hire teachers that will bring in the most money so to speak. And that is teachers that will actually teach and not be lazy fat arses.

The problem with education is not the teachers, but rather the school system, here in GA, we do not have unions, we are the mercy of the school system and the parents, we do not have rights and when it comes to problems in the classrooms and students failing the blame falls on the teacher and not the student, school system does not wants you to fail students because it is not good for the records, in order to understand the dilemma a teacher have to face everyday in a classroom you have to go and spend time in the school. It is easy to blame the teachers for the failure of education in this country but is the educational system the one that is to blame.