9/11, THE CASE FOR TRUTH: Part 1; The Build up to September 11th 2001

"and your explanation also call for this 'magical' jet fuel to, not just cause explosions on 'Que' of the buildings' collapse, but also somehow dribble down and cause explosions in the basement of the building...."

Aaahhh yes...that magical jet fuel. When it wasn't exploding on impact, it was shooting down the elevator shafts, blowing out the lobby and causing explosions in the basement level. And when it wasn't doing that, it settled on the floor of impact and caused all these random flammable objects to go BOOM!

"just a hint dave...using a condescending tone is not a substitute for 'factual' evidence..."

When one cannot use intellect to gain authority and respect, they usually resort to condescending tactics to reinvent themselves as a phony authority figure. This tactic is used to intimidate others from debating the issues, since the person utilizing it usually has no skills in recognizing these issues, let alone debating them.

In short, when you don't know what the hell you are talking about, just pound your chest a few times, repeat the same moronic catch phrases like a broken record and hope nobody catches on and calls you on it.

Originally posted by SphinxMontreal
"and your explanation also call for this 'magical' jet fuel to, not just cause explosions on 'Que' of the buildings' collapse, but also somehow dribble down and cause explosions in the basement of the building...."

Aaahhh yes...that magical jet fuel. When it wasn't exploding on impact, it was shooting down the elevator shafts, blowing out the lobby and causing explosions in the basement level. And when it wasn't doing that, it settled on the floor of impact and caused all these random flammable objects to go BOOM!

"just a hint dave...using a condescending tone is not a substitute for 'factual' evidence..."

When one cannot use intellect to gain authority and respect, they usually resort to condescending tactics to reinvent themselves as a phony authority figure. This tactic is used to intimidate others from debating the issues, since the person utilizing it usually has no skills in recognizing these issues, let alone debating them.

In short, when you don't know what the hell you are talking about, just pound your chest a few times, repeat the same moronic catch phrases like a broken record and hope nobody catches on and calls you on it.

Well and truly said.

2nd line.

Originally posted by dereks

Originally posted by hdutton
Actually the designers DID state that they should survive an impact from a Boeing 747; the largest plane likely to strick them at the time of their construction.

Oh dear, yet another lie from a damn fool conspiracy site - the WTC buildings were unveiled to the public on January 18, 1964, The Boeing 747 was not even started to be designed until 1965... and did not fly until 1969

You really should not believe anything one of those damn fool conspiracy sites states without checking!

What's this dereks? Can't come up with an original condescending epithet so you're plagiarizing G.O.D.'s (Good Old Dave's) standard line od "damn fool conspiracy site".

reply to post by dereks


O K. My bad! I got in a hurry and hit the 4 rather than the 0.

This would make a little difference between a 707 and a 747.

Actually there is a good deal more difference than just the numbers.

Originally posted by jambatrumpet
You once again present highly unlikely scenarios as the 'norm'....and somehow these 'flammable materials' just 'happened' to explode at the same time of the buildings collapse (as that is the point at which witness' heard the explosions)...

I do not think it is necessary to explain why sounds of explosions would be emanating form a building that's collapsing any more than a loud bang would be emanating fro a gun that has a bullet flinging out out it.

And this is all assuming that the jet fuel didn't burn up in the original explosion upon impact, and somehow 'simmered' for hours...

You are being fast and loose with your facts. The south tower fell 56 minutes after the impact and the North tower collapsed a little over an hour and a half after the impact. It was WTC 7 that "burned for hours" but it wasn't being fed by aviation fuel.

and your explanation also call for this 'magical' jet fuel to, not just cause explosions on 'Que' of the buildings' collapse, but also somehow dribble down and cause explosions in the basement of the building....

William Rodriguez' testimony to NIST states that fireballs from the impact came down the elevator shafts and reached the sub-basements, namely becuase the fellow he rescued was on the elevator at the time. The force from the flames pushed the elevator down several floors to the sub-basement and caused him to be horribly burned. Are you saying William Rodriguez is a liar?

just a hint dave...using a condescending tone is not a substitute for 'factual' evidence...

If my frustration is influencing the tone of my posts then that is my own human failure, but nonetheless it's still exasperating to be required to have to debunk the exact same nonsense time after time after time, particularly when the answers to most of your questions have already been answered in myriad reports years ago. Despite your objections to the integrity of the 9/11 commission report it's still your responsibility to read it to know what the lies are that you claim are there, and yet the truthers here keep speculating whether or not there had been a shoot down order or whether interceptors had been scrambled. Plus, the knee jerk relex to accuse everyone from NY firefighters to NY policemen to even a taxi driver out by the Pentagon of being liars and secret gov't agents is thoroughly disgusting.

Can we agree at least that accusing Ted Olsen of lying about receiving a phone call from his wife is uncalled for?

Amazing thread. Thank you

Alot of info here,,, thanks!

reply to post by GoodOlDave

Dave, dave, dave...

First of all, you completely ignored the question of:
"what is the explanation for these 'myriad of electrical transformers' laying dormant and suddenly exploding within seconds of the collapse of the buildings?"

Secondly,
Your claim of William Rodriguez' testimony proving that fireballs from the jet engine fuel traveled down the elevator shafts is fiction as well....

All of the passenger elevators in both world trade center buildings are 'jogged' between sections. A fire ball could have only traveled to next lower 'skylobby'. There is not ONE passenger elevator shaft that leads from impact floor to ground level. See diagram here: www.abovetopsecret.com...


To your point of me ignoring eyewitness testimony? Also fiction..I believe all of the eyewitness'..including the cab driver @ the pentagon (yes, I believe a plane hit the pentagon)..

You are the one who claims the dozens of firefighters who witnessed explosions are somehow mistaken...

Hmmm, its hard to think on this matter, is it?
The no plane theory sucks. Although sometimes i could believe it!
The pull-theorie is the one i like most (use of explosives) because its the most plausible... Although sometimes i think its just the it happend... 4 planes got hijacked and crashed (3 of them) at the designated targets!

I movie i just made:

Well Kiwi I believe you have made a case that can't be denied or disputed. No one could respond to anything you posted in this "Part 1; The Build up to September 11th 2001." Anything posted in this thread that dealt with any topics occurring on 9/11 or after was off topic and imo should be deleted. So a "debunker" who has read this thread can never use "all the questions have been answered" as a response without knowing he or she is lying. I keep checking on this thread to try to provide some info as possible rebuttals if need be, but no one has addressed anything. The only attempt I saw was a weak one that said this is from loose change or something. Good post there.

This thread just briefly goes over some oddities involving the hijackers themselves. If anyone cares to look closer at theses "culprits", here's is a link: www.historycommons.org.../11_hijackers

Originally posted by RomanMaroni
Well Kiwi I believe you have made a case that can't be denied or disputed. No one could respond to anything you posted in this "Part 1; The Build up to September 11th 2001." Anything posted in this thread that dealt with any topics occurring on 9/11 or after was off topic and imo should be deleted. So a "debunker" who has read this thread can never use "all the questions have been answered" as a response without knowing he or she is lying. I keep checking on this thread to try to provide some info as possible rebuttals if need be, but no one has addressed anything. The only attempt I saw was a weak one that said this is from loose change or something. Good post there.

This thread just briefly goes over some oddities involving the hijackers themselves. If anyone cares to look closer at theses "culprits", here's is a link: www.historycommons.org.../11_hijackers

edit on 4-11-2010 by RomanMaroni because: (no reason given)

Thanks RomanMaroni, thanks for the post and link. You are right that there has been almost nothing on this thread from OSers debating Part 1, I believe this is quite telling and important.

The evidence, although taken individually is quite circumstantial, however when viewed in its entirety is truly compelling.

I'm busy on Part 2, I'll drop you a U2U when I'm done bro!

Originally posted by jambatrumpet
reply to post by GoodOlDave

 

Dave, dave, dave...

First of all, you completely ignored the question of:
"what is the explanation for these 'myriad of electrical transformers' laying dormant and suddenly exploding within seconds of the collapse of the buildings?"

No I didn't. It's just that explosions were being heard all that morning so the fact that the explosions would continue to be heard up until the moment of actual collapse isn't something I thought would be up for debate. The fires causing the flammable objects to go BOOM would continue to be doing this as long as there were fires and flammable items to go BOOM.

Secondly,
Your claim of William Rodriguez' testimony proving that fireballs from the jet engine fuel traveled down the elevator shafts is fiction as well....

All of the passenger elevators in both world trade center buildings are 'jogged' between sections. A fire ball could have only traveled to next lower 'skylobby'. There is not ONE passenger elevator shaft that leads from impact floor to ground level. See diagram here:

Yes, I know there was only one elevator that ran through the full length of the building. This was the very same elevator William Rodriguez rescued the burned passenger from. The reason why this elevator was the one that got hit with the fireballs from the burning fuel is self evident.

To your point of me ignoring eyewitness testimony? Also fiction..I believe all of the eyewitness'..including the cab driver @ the pentagon (yes, I believe a plane hit the pentagon)..

...then I must point out that you are a minority here. Whenever I point out that firefighters specifically report the fires were burning out of control in WTC 7 and were causing a three story bulge in the side of the building, these eyewitnesses are usually accused of being secret gov't agents in knee jerk reflex. It isn't becuase they have any actual evidence that they're secret agents, it's becuase the eyewitnesses are saying things these people don't want to believe is true.

You are the one who claims the dozens of firefighters who witnessed explosions are somehow mistaken...

This claim is a lie. I specifically said...and you even responded to it...that I acknowledge there were explosions heard throughout the building. Where you're embellishing things on your own is your claim these were actually explosives rather than any of the flammable objects in the building going BOOM as the fires reached them in turn, not to mention all the other undocumented deterioration that was occurring. I talked to one woman who worked in the towers and she specifically saw the elevator doors explode outwards in a sheet of flame and pushing her coworker across the room, as well as a sound like gigantic boulders crashing down the emergency stairwell from above as she evacuated the building.

I can explain how burning jet fuel and pieces of structure falling from the damage from plane impacts would cause this phenomena, as well as people outsiude the building believing these were bombs going off. Can *you* point out how thermite could ever push an elevator down several floors and make the sound of boulders crashing down stairs?

reply to post by GoodOlDave

No I didn't. It's just that explosions were being heard all that morning so the fact that the explosions would continue to be heard up until the moment of actual collapse isn't something I thought would be up for debate. The fires causing the flammable objects to go BOOM would continue to be doing this as long as there were fires and flammable items to go BOOM.

We are not talking about everyone having a few cans of hair spray in their office Dave. These were not little pops from some cans, hair spray or spray paint.
You can make up all the excuses you want into trying to explain to why there were explosions. Your excuses are not the facts.

It was proven that steel beams where hurled up in the air over 600 feet away and some where BLASTED into other buildings and photos and video proved it. So, yes this supports the credible eyewitness such as NYC Firemen, NYC Police, First responders and professionals who worked in these Trade Centers All going on public record to hearing explosions before and after impact and as the WTC where being demolished.

Science has proved jet fuel and office fires did not melt the steel in the WTC. That leaves one thing only, and that is demolition, and many experts agree.

A good thread Kiwifoot S&F. I suppose you will be getting into the conflicts of interests in the 9/11 Commission not to mention the shoddy investigation that was pretty much controlled by the White House since day 1.The Able Danger story deserves it's own thread I think.

Let's continue with the build up to 9/11. Despite all the claims no one could have ever imagined terrorists using planes as missiles and flying them into buildings, let's look at at Operation Bojinka in 1995.

In 1995, Ramzi Yousef, mastermind of the '93 WTC bombing, is arrested in Pakistan. Despite a massive manhunt for Yousef, he was only arrested because a recruit turned him in. He was living in a Bin Laden owned house with his uncle Khalid Sheik Mohammed. Even though he was the most wanted man in the world, linked to dozens of attacks including the 93 WTC bombing, the CIA tries to stop the FBI from arresting him saying they wanted to continue tracking him. Could possibly be because he was recruited by the CIA in the late 80's or maybe because of his obvious and known connections within the ISI. Upon his arrest, Yousef makes a confession before he even gets to the US.

The Operation Bojinka plot has two main components. On January 12, Pope John Paul II is scheduled to visit Manila and stay for five days. A series of bombs along his parade route would be detonated by remote control, killing thousands, including the Pope. Yousef’s apartment is only 500 feet from the residence where the Pope will be staying. Then, starting January 21, a series of bombs would be placed on airplanes. Five men, Yousef, Wali Khan Amin Shah, Abdul Hakim Murad, Abd al-Karim Yousef, and Khalid Al-Shaikh (thought to be an alias for KSM) would depart to different Asian cities and place a timed bomb on board during the first leg of passenger planes traveling to Los Angeles, San Francisco, Honolulu, and New York. They would then transfer to another flight and place a second bomb on board that flight. In all, 11 to 12 planes would blow up in a two day period over the Pacific. If successful, some 4,000 people would have been killed. A second wave of attacks involving crashing airplanes into buildings in the US would go forward later, once the pilots are trained for it.

This second wave was a plan to dive bomb commercial airliners into US buildings. This is first learned through a Bojinka plotter Abdul Hakim Murad. A Philippine investigator writes a memo regarding Murad's confession that says, “With regards to their plan to dive-crash a commercial aircraft at the CIA headquarters, subject alleged that the idea of doing same came out during his casual conversation with [Yousef ] and there is no specific plan yet for its execution. What the subject [has] in his mind is that he will board any American commercial aircraft pretending to be an ordinary passenger. Then he will hijack said aircraft, control its cockpit, and dive it at the CIA headquarters. He will use no bomb or explosives. It is simply a suicidal mission that he is very much willing to execute.”

This second wave was fully revealed to the US in '95. The targets in the US include CIA building, the Pentagon, WTC, Sears Tower, Congress, White House, nuclear power plants, ... This was all discovered and shared with the US by Philippine authorities. Yousef's confession doesn't include the second wave or Bin Laden or KSM. US authorities also verify the second wave from Yousef's computer. Odd that in '95 Newsday reported “Some crucial computer evidence against notorious terrorist suspect Ramzi Yousef has been destroyed, and the FBI has begun an investigation into whether the CIA is responsible…” and goes on to say the CIA “provided the FBI with a summary of the files, indicating they contained detailed information about Yousef’s coconspirators in the United States and overseas, including their names, addresses and in some cases, even phone numbers.… But when the CIA turned over the actual computer and disks, Justice Department experts determined that at least three separate computer deletion programs had been used to erase some of the data, law-enforcement sources said.”

In '96, Yousef and Murad are convicted for Bojinka. The trial lasts 3 months and produces a 6,000 page transcript, but there is no mention of the Bojinka second wave, which is basically the blueprint for 9/11. Despite Philippine investigator Rodolfo Mendoza's clearly detailed outline of the plot, the FBI doesn't call him to testify and is not even mentioned at the trial. But Mendoza's assistant will testify but doesn't make mention of Mendoza.

Ramzi Yousef was protected by the CIA, ISI and the FBI. Despite being on the most wanted list, he was able to travel and continue plotting new attacks. Yousef was also very close to alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed. The CIA was monitoring Yousef and KSM for years. They could have arrested them anytime they wanted to from the late 80's. After being known as being the man in the '93 WTC bombings, he was still free and was almost pull off Operation Bojinka. Why was the second wave so hush hush? Why didn't the FBI or CIA want anyone to know about plans that involved commercial airliners with us regular civilians? And how is it even possible for the President of the US and his National Security Advisor to say 6 years after Bojinka no one could have even imagined something like 9/11?

A Bojinka plotter, Abdul Hakim Murad, also claimed responsibility for the OKC Bombing. A Philippine undercover operative says Terry Nichols met with Murad and Yousef in the Philippines in '94 where they discussed blowing up the OKC Building and other buildings.

Shot for the info Kiwi, 9/11 was long time coming and some government peeps knew exactly what was cracking.

Really makes my blood boil when people blatantly ignore these "suspicious events" that unfolded before 9/11... it
actually just proves that we are being dumbed down... and outcasted as "unpatriotic conspiracy nuts" on purpose.

S&F

reply to post by RomanMaroni
The CIA was protecting it's ISI assets Yousef and KSM just like the FBI was protecting Atta and the rest.It had nothing to do with tracking them.

reply to post by mike dangerously


I agree with you Mike, but even though all the evidence points towards it and seems a logical conclusion, we still have to use speculation. Let's see if we can possibly find some info where the CIA has been involved in protecting terrorists. Surely we won't find anything because it is well known that the US doesn't deal with terrorists. Oh wait ... here's something ...

In late 1999, the Saudis add two 9/11 hijackers to their watch list and inform the CIA about it. The two hijackers are Nawaf Alhazmi and Khalid Almihdhar. The Saudi Intelligence minister tells the CIA these 2 are with Al-Qaeda and involved in the '98 Embassy bombings and attempts to smuggle arms into the UK. It should be noted the CIA denies it was alerted, but coincidentally start tracking these 2 terrorists at this time. Also, these 2 aren't watch listed at this time despite the CIA stressing to agents to share all info and put anyone with "reasonable suspicion" on the list. In December '99, these 2 are identified as Al-Qaeda operatives due to attending an Al-Qaeda summit in Malaysia but still aren't watch listed. Both these men have US passports and 50-60 CIA agents are notified that they are traveling. One report says Alhazmi is in the US. Still the FBI isn't notified and no watch list update. Eight CIA offices were notified of the summit. The CIA was running an operation to track Al-Qaeda at the airport in Dubai. UAE officals make a copy of Almihdhar's passport and fax it to the CIA's Bin Laden Unit. The CIA learns his full name and discovers he has a multiple entry visa to the US through April 2000. Not watch listed. The summit was for four days, but for some reason, the CIA only video tapes the first day and only tapes operatives arriving. Still they are able to get Nawaf Alzhazmi, Khalid Almihdhar, and Bojinka plotter Hambali on video. Hambali was already known to the CIA as a Bojinka plotter. A CIA officer known only as James, knows about Almihdhar's US visa and twice briefs FBI officials about the summit but fails to mention the visa. He also fails to talk to the right people as he will brief FBI agents who are not contact points for CIA. "James" also writes an email to several CIA officials that says, "Thus far, a lot of suspicious activity has been observed [in Malaysia] but nothing that would indicate evidence of an impending attack or criminal enterprise. [I told the first FBI agent] that as soon as something concrete is developed leading us to the criminal arena or to known FBI cases, we will immediately bring FBI into the loop. Like [the first FBI agent] yesterday, [the second FBI agent] stated that this was a fine approach and thanked me for keeping him in the loop.” After 9/11, "James" refuses to talk to DOJ Inspector General, but does tell the CIA's inspector general he has no recollection of any of this.

After the summit, CIA Bin Laden Unit chief Richard Blee never did an intelligence report to be shared in the intelligence community. This summit was so important, Blee had to repeatedly brief CIA leadership on it, and that information was passed on to National Security Advisor Sandy Berger and FBI director Louis Freeh. It is because of this failure to do a report, Almihdhar and Alhazmi are able to "disappear" to Thailand later.

The CIA then fails to act on calls that link the Malaysian summit to the Cole bombings and the 9/11 Hijackers hotel. The calls are to/from a payphone outside of the summit, The Washington Hotel in Bangkok where 2 Al-Qaeda operatives involved in the Cole bombing are staying (and will later be joined by 9/11 hijackers Nawaf Alhazmi and Khalid Almihdhar), and Fahad Al-Quso's house in Yemen. Ai-Quoso was a top Al-Qaeda operative, and was supposed to videotape the Cole bombing. However, he "overslept" despite numerous calls to his cell phone all the way up until the bombing.

January 5 2000, Doug Miller, FBI agent assigned to the CIA Bin Laden Unit, gets a cable saying 9/11 hijacker Almihdhar has a US visa. He drafts a cable to inform the FBI. The cable says Almihdhar has a US visa, planned to stay in New York for 3 months, the links between his phone and the '98 African Embassy bombings. states the CIA has pictures of Almihdhar, and he will send the pictures separately. CIA Bin Laden Unit Deputy Chief, Tom Wilshire, blocks the cable and says it's not a matter for the FBI. So an Al-Qaeda terrorist was heading to the US, but CIA deputy Chief says it's not a matter for the FBI. Then the CIA sends out a cable to its agents saying the information had been shared with the FBI. Then, it's routine practice to follow up and make sure the FBI received the info. So it would have been routine because the cable went out saying they sent the info. However, no follow up was done.

When Almihdhar and Alhazmi "disappear" into Thailand, the CIA is notified they are en route. They only know of one of the passengers as Alhazmi. They know Almihdhar has an associate name Nawaf, but fails to put the names together which would have at least led to him being watch listed. The CIA monitoring the summit, knows of a person by the first name Nawaf and one by the last name Alhazmi but just couldn't "connect the dots" as we all heard so many times. Had they put these together, they would have most likely identified Alhazmi's brother Salem who is also a 9/11 hijacker. Richard Blee goes on to lie to his superiors and say they were continuing the Malaysia monitoring when in fact these men had already gone to Thailand. Blee says he wasn't aware the terrorists had left Malaysia. The CIA was fully aware they were in Thailand because they sent the cable to Thailand alerting the CIA there these men were coming. The CIA then says they were unable to locate them in Thailand. Even though they were at the very hotel the CIA was monitoring from Malaysia.

This is all before they came to the US .. which they were able to enter undetected because they still hadn't been at least put on the watch list that only requires "reasonable suspicion." They had just attended an AL-QUEDA SUMMIT with OTHER KNOWN TERRORISTS INCLUDING KNOWN BOJINKA PLOTTERS and HAD VISAS TO ENTER THE US. The SUMMIT was SO IMPORTANT that over it's FOUR DAYS there were MULTIPLE UPDATES AND BRIEFINGS with the NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR and the FBI CHIEF.

Originally posted by jambatrumpet
All of the passenger elevators in both world trade center buildings are 'jogged' between sections. A fire ball could have only traveled to next lower 'skylobby'. There is not ONE passenger elevator shaft that leads from impact floor to ground level. See diagram here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Not true! This shows that there was, in fact, a single express elevator that ran the length of the building:
science.howstuffworks.com...

reply to post by RomanMaroni
The CIA and FBI when you look at the way they operated you come away with 2 possibilities either they are incompetent which would point to reckless endangerment or we have a parallel system with moles embedded through out the intelligence community and that is a frightening idea.