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BTW stop looking to wiki for facts if i edit the page about the moon and re wrote it as being made of swiss cheese im sure half the internet population would believe it as FACT :'(
Originally posted by Havick007
Constellations specific to ancient Egypt
Ancient Egyptians called the northern stars around the circumpolar star “Ikhemw-sek” (imperishable stars) and the southern stars “Ikhemw-wredj” (unwearying stars). This naming (tireless stars) is probably because the southern stars especially on and about the celestial equator travel a very long distance after they rise above the East horizon before they sink below the West horizon, while the northern stars move counterclockwise around the celestial north pole.
On ancient Egyptian tombs and ceilings of temples, northern constellations were discovered. These stars are called “Ikhemw-sek” (imperishable stars) because they are generally assumed to be “northern circumpolar stars” never sinking below the horizon. The oldest existing northern constellation is a constellation named “Meskhetyw.” It was drawn as a forefoot of a bull on the interior lid of the wooden coffin for the man named Idy which dated from the First Intermediate Period (from 2145 B.C. to about 2025 B.C.) and was excavated in Asyut.
There are two famous constellations among the southern stars called Ikhemw-wredj (unwearying stars): a constellation called Sah corresponding to the current Onion's Belt and Sirius called Sepdet. The name Sah was first found in the “Pyramid Text” engraved in the Pyramid of Unas, the last king of the 5th Dynasty, Old Kingdom (reign: from 2340 B.C. to 2320 B.C.).
Source
So are you saying they didnt use constellations at all and only focused on single stars?
Originally posted by Havick007Yes i am talking about Egyptians because the Sphinx is in Egypt but instead of refering to current day or the Egyptians of the Dynastic periods i am going further back. I picked Leo because that is the entire point of this thread and how it relates to Aker.
Originally posted by Havick007Not just the fact there are two lions in the symbol for Aker (sometimes also represented by two Human heads on either side of the horizon symbol) but because at that date in time it fits well with the myth and meaning behind Aker, the location of the Sphinx, the direction it faces and the stars at dusk, through the night and at dawn.
What date? 10,500 BC?
None of them refer to the stars as a shape of anything (lion, crab, bull, etc.).
Further on the right of the pole, there is a female hippopotamus carrying a crocodile on her back and the astronomical instrument called Merekhet as well as a crocodile in her hands. Also a lying lion, crocodile, and human beings were drawn on the left.
Source
The famous Zodiac of Dendera confounds today's visitors who may look for a reflection of modern-day astrological beliefs. This bas-relief actually represented a night skyscape, on the ceiling of a chapel in the Temple of Hathor at Dendera, where the mysteries of the resurrection of the god Osiris were celebrated.
''The Dendera Affair''
The controversy around the zodiac, called the "Dendera Affair", involved people of the likes of Joseph Fourier (who estimated that the age was 2500 BC[6]), Thomas Young, Jean-François Champollion, and Jean-Baptiste Biot.[7] Johann Karl Burckhardt and Jean-Baptiste Coraboeuf held, after analysis of the zodiac, that the ancient Egyptians understood the precession of the equinoxes. Champollion, among others, believed that it was a religious zodiac. Champollion deciphered the names of Tiberius, Claudius, Nero and Domitian on the ceiling of Dendera's temple, and placed the zodiac in the era of Roman rule over Egypt.
It was worshipped in ancient Egypt, as its entry into Leo in the heat of Summer coincided with the annual flooding of the Nile. Regulus, the star which marks the Lion's heart, was worshipped as the ruler of the heavens throughout Europe and Asia as far back as 4000 BC.
Stars and Mythology
Water erosion debate - Wiki
From his investigation of the Enclosure's geology, Schoch concluded that the main type of weathering evident on the Sphinx Enclosure walls could only have been caused by prolonged and extensive rain.[20] According to Schoch, the area has experienced a mean annual rainfall of approximately one inch (2.5 cm) since the Old Kingdom (c. 2686–2134 BC), and since Egypt's last period of significant rainfall ended between the late fourth and early 3rd millennium BC,[21] he dates the Sphinx's construction to the 6th millennium BC or 5th millennium BC.
The chief proponents of the water erosion theory have rejected these alternative explanations. Reader, for example, points to the tombs dug into the Enclosure walls during Dynasty XXVI (c. 600 BC), and notes that the entrances of the tombs have weathered so lightly that original chisel marks are still clearly visible. He points out that if the weathering on the Enclosure walls (up to a metre deep in places) had been created by any of the proposed alternative causes of erosion, the tomb entrances would have been weathered much more severely.[32] Similarly, Schoch points out that the alternative explanations do not account for the absence of similar weathering patterns on other rock surfaces in the Giza pyramid complex.
Originally posted by Harte
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
reply to post by Harte
Harte: After so doing, what you then will have is a description of exactly what you've done in the same thread.
SC: Utter nonsense! Are you suggesting here that the consensus opinion of mainstream Egyptologists is that the Sphinx was originally carved as something else other than the head of a pharaoh? Is that really what you are suggesting here?
Why would you even ask this question?
Oh, never mind. I just realized. You would ask this question in order to avoid providing citations to support what you claimed:
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
Orthodoxy completely discounts the possibility that an original lion’s head on a lion’s body might have later been recarved into the head of a pharaoh, assuming that it had always been a pharaoh's head.
Obviously, you must muddy the waters, considering you've been caught red-handed making vapid, empty and baseless claims without providing any documentation for them - a charge you continue to make against Byrd right here in this thread.
And you and I both know that there can be no documentation for such a claim, since (again, both you and I know) the claim is a complete fabrication, a straw man created by you so that you could might make an otherwise unmakeable point - that "orthodoxy" consists of a bunch of evil men conspiring to keep "the truth" from us ordinary folks while simultaneously trying to maintain their "cushy, high paying" jobs.
Harte
Originally posted by Havick007
reply to post by Harte
There were people in Egypt around that time, it was called the Neolithic Period and goes back to 12000BC. Although science will say around that time you would be looking at a more hunter/gatherer type civilisation there were still people there.
This thread is not about current known facts... it's a theory. Which is what i like about ATS, although you seem to think this is a university lecture... perhaps you are in the wrong place.
Originally posted by Havick007
None of them refer to the stars as a shape of anything (lion, crab, bull, etc.).
Further on the right of the pole, there is a female hippopotamus carrying a crocodile on her back and the astronomical instrument called Merekhet as well as a crocodile in her hands. Also a lying lion, crocodile, and human beings were drawn on the left.
Source
The above quote doesnt specifically say the Lion was a representation of the stars, it's the closest i have found so far. I want to go through the Pyramid texts and also some more of Ptolemy's treatise on astrology (to find any refernece to previous astrological charts they took from the Egyptians) in more detail than last time and also some related documents.
When it comes to the Greeks and even the Romans it wouldnt be the first time a conquering army or civilisation stole knowledge or ideas and claimed it as their own.
Originally posted by Havick007
In regard to astrology or the zodiac there is The Dendera Zodiac[/url] and although i realise it is widely believed and dated to be in 1st century BC there are others out there that beleive it could be much older, somewhere around 2,500BC.
Originally posted by Havick007The ancient Egyptians used to worship it as well as it's relation to the Sun conicided with the summer solstice and the annual flooding of the nile -
It was worshipped in ancient Egypt, as its entry into Leo in the heat of Summer coincided with the annual flooding of the Nile. Regulus, the star which marks the Lion's heart, was worshipped as the ruler of the heavens throughout Europe and Asia as far back as 4000 BC.
Stars and Mythology
In any case, there are many allusions in these texts that make it implicit if not explicit that certain zodiacal constellation were perceived as 'The Scales', 'The Bull', 'The Lion' and so forth. But in the case of Leo, the identification with a 'lion' or 'Sphinx' seems certain. In Keeper of Genesis we devote quite a few pages of the book to make this point clear (see Chapter 10). We show that the entity the ancient Egyptians called 'Horus of the Horizon' was identified to both the Sphinx and the constellation of Leo. There can be little doubt of this. Even the ancient Greeks knew that the Egyptians identified the constellation of Leo with the idea of a sphinx, pointing out that they used sphinxes as fountains to symbolise the summer solstice sun in Leo at the time of the Nile's annual flood.
This thread is not about current known facts... it's a theory. Which is what i like about ATS, although you seem to think this is a university lecture... perhaps you are in the wrong place.
Originally posted by CayceFan
I've been reading these pages for the last 30 minutes or so and just cant bite my tongue any longer.
I have the score as SC- 6 and Harte- 0. Anyone disagree? Really Harte, you seem somewhat intelligent just admit defeat gracefully.
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
Orthodoxy completely discounts the possibility that an original lion’s head on a lion’s body might have later been recarved into the head of a pharaoh, assuming that it had always been a pharaoh's head.
Harte: I take it then that you are prepared to support this remark?:
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
Orthodoxy completely discounts the possibility that an original lion’s head on a lion’s body might have later been recarved into the head of a pharaoh, assuming that it had always been a pharaoh's head.
You are of the opinion that the above is not an "absolute statement," which is exactly the sort of statement Creighton was complaining about in his post that caught my attention?
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
reply to post by Harte
Harte: I take it then that you are prepared to support this remark?:
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
Orthodoxy completely discounts the possibility that an original lion’s head on a lion’s body might have later been recarved into the head of a pharaoh, assuming that it had always been a pharaoh's head.
You are of the opinion that the above is not an "absolute statement," which is exactly the sort of statement Creighton was complaining about in his post that caught my attention?
SC: If the consensus opinion of mainstream Egytology is that the Sphinx might not have been crafted with the head of an ancient Egyptian King (Khufu, Radjedef, Rachaf or whoever) of the 4th Dynasty, then I - unlike Byrd - will gladly stand corrected and will happily modify/qualify my statement on this matter accordingly in future posts.
Originally posted by Harte
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
reply to post by Harte
Harte: I take it then that you are prepared to support this remark?:
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
Orthodoxy completely discounts the possibility that an original lion’s head on a lion’s body might have later been recarved into the head of a pharaoh, assuming that it had always been a pharaoh's head.
You are of the opinion that the above is not an "absolute statement," which is exactly the sort of statement Creighton was complaining about in his post that caught my attention?
SC: If the consensus opinion of mainstream Egytology is that the Sphinx might not have been crafted with the head of an ancient Egyptian King (Khufu, Radjedef, Rachaf or whoever) of the 4th Dynasty, then I - unlike Byrd - will gladly stand corrected and will happily modify/qualify my statement on this matter accordingly in future posts.
Harte: My beef was with you complaining about Byrd's "absolute" statement while following it up with one of your own.
Harte
Harte: There is no evidence for an earlier date than the Old Kingdom, and plenty of evidence for the Old Kingdom date itself.
Havick007: So your saying you don't agree at all in regards to this thread or the purpose behind it and that the age of the Sphinx (not the pyramids) could not be far older than the old kingdom?
Possibly you aren't aware of exactly how Greek the Dendera temple actually is. Even all the god's names there are given in the Greek version. There's simply no question at all that the place is purely Ptolemaic.
Originally posted by Havick007
Looking at the Dendera Zodiac what part of it resembles Greek influence? Because just looking at it it seems very Egyptian...
There were inscroptions carved on it thayt linked it to the Ptolemaic period but could they have been carved on the existing stone at a later date?
No opinion neccesary here, i just want you to answer me the above question, could the greek related inscriptions have been carved at a later date?
Pharaoh Ptolemy XV,Caesarion,son of Julius Caesar and Cleopatra,(second from right) offering incense to the goddess Hathor. Next to him is his "ka". His mother Cleopatra stands behind him, she wears an atef-crown. On the left are the god Ihy and his mother the goddess Hathor with the sceptre "ouas". From the surrounding wall of the Hathor Temple,Dendera. (332-30 BCE),Ptolemaic Period.
Temple of Hathor, Dendera, Egypt