There has to be some TORTURE situations that are JUSTIFIED

Tortured and torturer
Yeah well Im sure they aint dumb neither, because they know if a person is telling lies or not ( I would assume) the amount of pain is to get them to talk, Im sure they are not getting them to speak false lies. so the torture is to get them to speak. If after an hour of minimal torture I don’t agree to speak the words they want to hear and the keep it up lets say a few days, or up the pain. I start to just totally agree then they could read my expressions and see im just going along to stop the pain. But if I give minor details along the process of torture then they will keep going till they feel I have given up all details of what I know.
As the one being tortured I will give off signs of honesty and lies, so the torturer would be skilled in this kind of reading and pick up on how to proceed.

Instead of being analytical about all of it, just put yourself in each of the shoes.
And the witches being buried was a quota, we got that now adays, its the courts and police who need to fill the quota to pull over, capture speeders, arrest and apprehend as many warrants by the end of the month to satisfy the demand for defendants to give money to the courts. Commit a crime and 90% of the time there are several charges placed on you, I believe this is solely to give the prosecutor different ways to entrap you , by dropping a charge to appease you, so you feel like you got away with something like you won, and getting your to plea out to another! And if you decided to box it up (take it to a jury) which is your right, they 99% of the time max your sentence out if your found guilty! Why?? Well because you challenged the court, and they don’t like that.

reply to post by Joshuadrooney


Yeah, and funny how one of those wielding the knife seemed to have on a star of David.
Moral highground. PLEASE.

I don't want to be like them.

reply to post by Joshuadrooney


your justifying torture of muslims, you think muslims should have no human rights, so what you moaning about westerners being beheaded for? they see it as totally fine after all its o.k. to kill and torture muslims.

what you have said throughout the thread is a bit like moaning about how certain people act then going of and acting exactly the same. if you want to act like that fine, but don't moan about people doing the same thing as you, its hypocritical.

Originally posted by MoreFunky85
reply to post by oozyism

 

Im talking about Bin Laden and legitimate terrorists. I dont agree with the torture of innocents.

hahahaha ignorance is bliss aint it...

reply to post by Alda1981


....................... so you don’t regard Bin Laden a legitimate target.

Yes your right ignorance is bliss but that is for another time.

It is more effective to offer benefits and privileges for those who are compliant and cooperative than to torture those who aren’t. Not just as far as intelligence gathering is concerned but also for its usefulness in propaganda.

When you capture someone who is very likely to have useful information, someone detained on a targeted house raid for example, interrogating them at the scene of their capture is proven to yield more information than subsequent torture.

Torture might be useful in some extremely rare cases because it takes less time to achieve results, that is if there is anything to gain from the individual in the first place. There are many ways to obtain information and the most effective method is dependent on the individual and what you want from them. For example you could offer them money or freedom, it doesn’t mean that they will eventually get it.

There was one instance in Afghanistan where an Italian and his two Afghan interpreters were captured and soon to be executed, so a transfer was arranged with a Taliban commander to release two lower-ranking Taliban leaders in return for the hostages. The two were tracked by the ISA to a meeting in a compound with the commander who had organised the deal and the SBS killed all of them.

Torture is the tool of the insane, inhumane, and sociopathic individuals..

I am of the mind (and training) that if I ever catch anyone performing these acts, I would "sanction" them immediately, release the individual being tortured, and move on..

Never a reason for torture to be justified (only a pus&y would torture, lacking the manhood to do real research and investigation)

It has been proven that you will get anything you want when torture is applied, however the information you get is "false" and only meant to stop the pain of the torture itself based on the torturers questioning..

You torture intentionally, death is the only thing you deserve..

NO torture is justified. If any American here believes otherwise, then they are disgraceful of this beautiful country.

Before we invaded Iraq in 2003, we declared a morality war to protect and liberate those who were being tortured by Saddam and his administration.

We came in and removed the government.

The torture of Iraqis continued and we did nothing.

Oh but at least corporations here made millions.

reply to post by boondock-saint


"ANY government who tortures, murders and rapes detainees is not different than the terrorists they hunt."

I agree with the above comment 100%. I was going to submit a comment that simply said: "Torture is just another form of terrorism", but boondock-saint beat me to it!

reply to post by MoreFunky85


The ticking time bomb scenario where a nuclear or biological attack is imminent is the only situation where I think torture is justifiable in a country that condemns torture.

Which is really only practical for TV or films.

Unbelievable how the name Bin Laden keeps popping up constantly because of a hypocritical concept of terrorism and yet people/institutions/brands who have many MANY more victims under their belts get a free pass in judgement. The crimes attached to politics, banking, medical, advertising and media will always surpass ANY individual or collective known act of supposed "terrorism". If anybody, these industries deserve some kind of chastisement...but, oh wait, we benefit/work for/support these industries, companies, brands and individuals, so let's turn the blind eye. We are ALL "terrorists" given the right approach, label or definition of "crime" therefore based on the OPs faulty logic, we should all deserve torture right?.

Originally posted by mobiusmale
Well okay, almost all of us would agree that we should not use torture willy-nilly. A healthy percentage would agree that we should only use extreme torture in the most extreme of circumstances, etc. That is, assuming we can agree on a definition of torture in the first place.

Electric drill through the hand? No question.
Pulling out nails, or removing other boy parts. Of course.
Hold somebody's head under water for a long enough time to severely frighten? Probably
Playing loud music, or otherwise making people stay awake for long periods? Not too sure
Very long serial interrogations? I don't think so.

That aside, here is a scenario I would hope that most people would be conflicted about...as to whether or not torture of some kind would be justified.

Scenario:We know for a fact (just take it as a given for this example) that somebody has placed a very large nuclear device in the middle of a large American city. It is ticking down, we know that it will explode within one hour...but we do not know which city it is in.

We have just caught the guy who is carrying a hand-held device that can stop the countdown and render the bomb harmless. It requires the entry of a complex code, or series of codes to disarm the bomb. However, this fellow is not inclined to tell us the codes, or to enter them in himself.

What say you...oh wise ones of ATS? Stand by and do nothing, knowing that a few million innocent Americans will surely die? Or do we apply whatever levels and forms of persuasion we have at our disposal to try to force him to disarm the device?

It's your call...you can pretend to be Mr./Ms. President....

Your scenario is an impossible one. If you ask him nicely for the code, apply civilized pressure, or torture him, and under each method he gives you a complex code, or series of codes, to enter into the remote to disarm the bomb, the only way you will know if it was the correct code is if the bomb does not explode. I suppose you all could just then sit back, cross your fingers, and hope for the best.

reply to post by MoreFunky85


Torture is an absolute no no! Irrespective of whether it's Osama Bin Laden or whoever you're talking about, is irrelevant! If you're in you're right frame of mind, then this just isn't an issue! Go and seek Council, because I think you need it?

Another question on torture...
What do you think it does to our troops? Do you want to be the guy who decides he's going to do an honorable thing for his country, and then finds out that he may be expected to do or at least tolerate something like this, or face consequences himself?
Have you ever been around someone who was hurt and been the only one who cared, and had to wonder about the people who could just ignore it? Multiply that by a thousand and add the fear of what these sociopaths might do if they get the feeling you aren't one of them.

Do you want to be that guy? Do you even want to live on the same block as that guy? I tell you what, if you put me in a situation where I had to be around torture and unjust killing regularly and couldn't do anything to stop it, it would fill me with a level of fear and hatred that would probably cause me to act like a scared animal and hurt people very badly anytime I felt they were the least bit mean or threatening.

They do it to each other too by the way. Many years ago now, a Marine at 29 Palms was briefly buried alive by his fellow Marines as punishment for something that was never explained to me. I was young, but it seemed to really scare the hell out of the guy I found out about it from- he just seemed different. And the paranoid stuff he ended up doing- anonymous phone calls trying to be too fast to trace all over the place, sending video tapes to strange places under false names... I thought somebody was about to kill him for what he knew at first. Is that what ought to happen to the Few and the Proud?

Originally posted by MoreFunky85
Why shouldn't we torture this guy to get the proper information we need?

Why should we lower ourselves to such a disgusting and lowly level? Lot's of people around the world do absolutely horrible things.... So.... if it is not okay for them to do those horrible things, WHY is it okay for us to do horrible things to them????

Seems a bit on the hypocritical side to me. Besides, there is that whole, saying whatever they want to hear just to get them to stop... Hey, you could torture me and accuse me of blowing up mars. If you tortured me enough, and broke me and to get you to stop all I had to do was "confess" I would.... Torture does not work and only makes us look bad.

Some people don't seem to understand war at all.In a war both sides try to kill each other,Why we where killed on 9/11.However one can argue if attacking Iraq was the right idea.The exetremist in the Islam world do the exact identical stuff you guys accuse the United States of doing only they are far wrose.They don't hesitate to find the good and bad people to torture and kill.The United States strives to protect as many lives as possible and yes they will use torture like methods to either capture or kill people who would not hesitate to kill your sons and daughters.
War has always been this way but today we just have cameras everywhere and the internet to show how it realy is.You don't go to fight and kill other human beings and it is all freindly and innocent looking.Have thousands of people in an the military and the Navy and the Airforce.How in the world can you control the amount of violence and the different methods soliders use to capture enemies.Unless the enimies are tied up and under control of the U.S. military any method possible has to be used to stop them,youd expect the other side to behave the same way.But they never do,instead they use women as shields,they blow themselves up to take out innocent people.They rape women and get away with it.Anyone who does this crap in the U.S. military usualy is investigated and are dishonorbaly discharged and put in prison,some of them probably get away with it.If they do get away with it it is the same as murder.
So they will answer to God at judgement day anyways..

reply to post by Jobeycool


Spoken like a man who doesn't understand war himself. I suggest that you read War Fighting. It is an extremely short primer on maneuver warfare written by former Commandant of the Marine Corps, General Charles Krulak.
Modern warfare is won by maneuver because you can render the enemy irrelevant faster than you can destroy them.

This reminds me of the movie unthinkable.... It doesn't make tourture good. Some times it's neccesary to save lives. In the movie they have to tortoure this guy who planted 4 nukes around the USA. They had to get the information out of him.
The vietcongs would cut your thing off and stick it in your mouth..... until you bleed out.
Waterboarding sounds like paradise....

Originally posted by MoreFunky85
That Bin Laden is the mastermind behind it all

Is he? You're certain of that? No-one BUT him? No CIA involvement in how all that came about on 9/11? Maybe that's why he's still out and about, and, from what I've read lately, living 'comfortably' in Pakistan.

Perhaps, under torture, he might reveal something embarassing. I know I'd be spilling my guts as fingernail #3 was getting pulled off with a Leatherman.

Why shouldn't we torture this guy to get the proper information we need? If it was one of your own family members murdered on 9-11 would you be so concerned about the fair treatment of Osama?

I think it's quite simple, really. Torture will make almost anyone say whatever it is the torturers want to hear. That kind of information isn't trustworthy. Pretend for a moment that YOU are the one going through some rather painful procedures. What I want to know is if YOU were the one that killed JFK. Let me work my magic with my trusty Leatherman and I'd be willing to bet you'd be confessing to the assasination within the hour (even if you were born in 1989).

Yeah... great method for intel.

There certainly is not.

You can't condone torture of enemies. A tortured suspect will say anything to make the pain stop.

Where do we as a people draw the line these days? Isn't there enough death and violence in our world? How are you suppose to be the "good" guy if your methods for beating the bad guys are just the same?

I simply don't understand what logical pathway would lead to a person torturing another person.

~Keeper