There has to be some TORTURE situations that are JUSTIFIED

reply to post by Asktheanimals


I'm not a yank, and I do not believe in Human Rights for Muslims. I can also tell you what to do with that scraggy old rag you call a "constitution" as well if you want; it involves a dark place and shoving it there.

Originally posted by Joshuadrooney
reply to post by Asktheanimals

 

I'm not a yank, and I do not believe in Human Rights for Muslims. I can also tell you what to do with that scraggy old rag you call a "constitution" as well if you want; it involves a dark place and shoving it there.

edit on 23-10-2010 by Joshuadrooney because: (no reason given)

You don't believe in human rights for Muslims?

Do you realize that it's Muslims today, but it could be you tomorrow? Do you not realize that?

reply to post by sremmos


Well, when you hear of non-muslim suicide bombers, we'll have this discussion then. I'm pretty sure the Russians, who have lived for years with Muslim suicide bombings over the Caucuses, and the Indians, who had their capital city shot to bits by them would agree, that it would be a safer option than to let them roam free.

We don't have human rights anyway. You can't question the holocaust, lest you wind up in jail, you can't question immigration, lest you end up labelled as a racist and infront of a judge for "hate crimes", the police and government agents are allowed to brutalise us, the PATRIOT ACT etc.

reply to post by MoreFunky85



Well you are suggesting that the Geneva Convention be broken. The GC is a usefull safeguard in terms of war. We should not support torture. I know of the greater good arguement but why damage or shredded moral place in the world.

reply to post by tiger5


Apply the Geneva Convention to opponents who respect and abide by the Geneva Conventions themselves. I'm not sure using children as shields and suicide bombers is covered in it to be honest.

reply to post by Joshuadrooney


Well if you believe two wrongs = one big right fine. I am well aware of the Islamist's actions thank you. Ihave internet and TV. I am writing about principles of morality. Besides the truth of the matter is if we torture them they will torture us when they catch us. Trust me this a a knife that can cut both ways.

reply to post by tiger5


They torture us already, beheading westerners with a pocketknife isn't exactly pain free, or dignified.

The police and gov in effect have tortured me for 18 years now, just making stuff up so they can.

So they have never been right once and desperately tried to absolutely destroy my life for there fun. Why are these people not in jail?

The police i can tell you even if you do nothing, will hound you for life and do what ever it takes to absolutely destory your life, including torture, with no come back on them, as they can virtually kill anyone they want.

Amazing.

My point is, who is to say when torture is right.

The english polcie and gov have done thsi to me, for there fun to virtually torture me to death.

Why like i say are they not in jail.

I will tell you why, general public love people being tortured as long as its not them, and they can laugh in your face.

My life has proven the police and gov in england do in fact torture people for no reason other than they just make it up, so they can go after your life, for which it seems life, as they have done this rubbish to me for 18 years now.

Nothing justifies torture. Torture is the act of a monster. If you feel good about it, than something is seriously wrong with you. It is beyond my understanding how anyone can degrade, humiliate, and horrify another human being for any reason.

How can you justify torture?

There are prisons.

You say that most Arabs hate America.....most Spanish hate French.

That meens nothing, thats all usually media that stresses those points.

That dont meen that all Americans hate Arabs or viceversa.

I wouldnt torture a person, if i found him to be guilty of those crimes then execution?

But then again im not in favour of execution either.

Its a tough one but no i wouldnt sink to the lower levels of madness just for revenge.

reply to post by andy1033


You can always just go home if you want. No really, go.

Originally posted by Joshuadrooney
reply to post by andy1033

 

You can always just go home if you want. No really, go.

Maybe he is home, you forget London is not English, wake up.

reply to post by MoreFunky85


I believe torture is never right because it is inhuman. Have you ever seen videos of someone being tortured? If not, please do and then see if you still believe torture is justified.

As others have said, it never achieves anything because under severe torture people will admit to anything.

Moreover, how is it justified - would you say it was justified if Afghan insurgents tortured US soldiers to get intel from them? If not, why not? They believe in their cause just as much as the US criminals believe in theirs.

We are so used to violence in our world that we still try to justify it. There is no justification. The majority of the violence is instigated by the evil monsters who are in charge.

I believe Bin Laden is a CIA agent, as do many others - so, if that were the case where would your argument stand?

I'm afraid people still can't see the wood for the trees. The real culprits are the ones you will be voting for in just a few days. Now, which murderous monster will you be voting for? The red monster or the blue monster?

Originally posted by andy1033
The police and gov in effect have tortured me for 18 years now, just making stuff up so they can.

So they have never been right once and desperately tried to absolutely destroy my life for there fun. Why are these people not in jail?

The police i can tell you even if you do nothing, will hound you for life and do what ever it takes to absolutely destory your life, including torture, with no come back on them, as they can virtually kill anyone they want.

Amazing.

My point is, who is to say when torture is right.

The english polcie and gov have done thsi to me, for there fun to virtually torture me to death.

Why like i say are they not in jail.

I will tell you why, general public love people being tortured as long as its not them, and they can laugh in your face.

My life has proven the police and gov in england do in fact torture people for no reason other than they just make it up, so they can go after your life, for which it seems life, as they have done this rubbish to me for 18 years now.

I absolutely have to disagree with you. The general public do not love torture. The monsters who are in charge love violence, they thrive on it. Most ordinary citizens abhor it.

reply to post by oozyism


Good answer, but unfortunately that isn't possible at this moment in time...

Originally posted by Joshuadrooney
reply to post by Asktheanimals

 

I'm not a yank, and I do not believe in Human Rights for Muslims. I can also tell you what to do with that scraggy old rag you call a "constitution" as well if you want; it involves a dark place and shoving it there.

edit on 23-10-2010 by Joshuadrooney because: (no reason given)

Mm, well if I were to say that I don't believe in human rights for nationlists, then the same old, same old repetitive cycle of hatred and violence goes round and round.

Human rights are universal. They cannot be applied or supported discriminately. Every human being has human rights, that's why it's called HUMAN rights and not 'Nationalist rights' or 'Christian Rights' or Buddhist Rights', or British Rights or American Rights. It is this divisive use of labels such as Muslims, Brits, Yanks, whatever which is the CAUSE of the problem not the solution.

With your statement you have clearly shown you are part of the problem which the world needs to remedy.

reply to post by MoreFunky85


I agree with the OP in principle that sometimes regrettably torture is a necessary evil. That said however in my opinion the OP hasn’t presented his/her case for taking this line very well.

I personally have no problem with torture when it becomes a necessary evil such as in a ticking time bomb scenario. I take a utilitarian view to this, if for example MI5 had a suspect who they thought had knew the location of a impending terrorist attack in a major city and they had intelligence to substantiate this then by all means they should have the ability to torture him or her. I would go as far as to say the same could be done if the objective of the torture was locate a known terrorist suspect or obtain information that could not be obtained another way due to time constraints or available recourses. The needs of the few are often outweighed by the needs of the many.

That however does not mean that I advocate mindless violence in these situations, under torture a man will say whatever you want to hear after a while. Therefore torture must be constructive, for example if one take the suspect’s family and either kills or tortures them anytime the suspect is proved to be providing misinformation or withholding information, then he’s going to start talking pretty soon. For some of you that it’s going to be very controversial, I personally would not like to be the one committing the act of torture or being the one to order the torture however I can appreciate the reasons for doing so.

It is very essay for those of us not involved in these decisions to judge them to be wrong, unconstitutional, evil or whatever you want to call it however we do not and probably never will know the entire story. Those making the decisions have information that we will never have and as such have the full story, that story might present a threat so extreme that any measures can be justified to naturalise it. Including torture.

This is one of the most debatable topics you could of posted. Its hard to say because of the different scenarios that a country could be put in. But from my point of view its not right to torture anybody. Most people would rather die than go through that.

reply to post by Joshuadrooney


After I wrote my first post on here I read yours and was momentarily disgusted with myself because I realised that both you and I advocate the use of torture. Then I thought about it.

Like you I do not think Muslims should have human rights however I am universal with this view. I don’t think anyone should have human rights, no matter their ethnicity. I relies however that we are fundamentally governed by human rights and as such I respect them because I respect the need for the law.

You on the other hand have singled out one group, the Muslims, who you do not think are entitled to human rights. This suggests that you arrogantly view all Muslims as being less than human and that you are somehow above them. By specifying that you only take this view with Muslims you are showing that you discriminate against Muslims and thus you are a racist. I hate racists or anyone who discriminates against any particular group in society for that matter, I would rather be a Muslim than be seen to shear your medieval xenophobic views.

While torture is inhumane and should be avoided at all costs, i can understand how someone who is on the side of right could apply it and i wouldnt be able to judge.

If your wife and children were being tortured themselves somewhere and you caught someone responsible who could give you their whereabouts, i dont see how it would be unjust to torture them to get that information that could save their lives. You and your family are innocent in this and only trying to protect good, honest people, unlike the ones perpetrating the act.

And to the person that said someone who isnt afraid to die will tell you no useful information while being tortured, that is quite incorrect. Its not the fear of death at those times that makes you give up the information, its the fear of more unbearable pain. I dont think some people realize how brutal torture can be, how long it can be drawn out. After months or years anyone will give up anything. While i agree they will lie to save themselves, or to speed up their deaths, a good torturer with time on his hands can verify things before granting that death.