Didn't know Obama lowered your taxes? Thought he raised them? You're not alone.

reply to post by Dance4Life


How about you keep the main arguments I made instead of nitpicking?

End game comment: Maybe I'm wrong but Benny is running out of ways to keep this thing propped up. It is quite obvious by the desperation and actually purposely trying to cause inflation.

Zimbabwe comment: It is simply the most extreme example of markets skyrocketing in the face of inflation. Markets do increase when inflation is manipulated and increased quickly. It is not a fallible argument is completely logical. Refute it.

reply to post by Bugman82


Why should I refute your claim that has no basis in being compared to the USA? Rhode Island most likely has a bigger GDP than Zimbabwe, so just forget about this analogy. Your claim makes no sense.

Regarding inflation, currently we really have none. Some would say that cotton -> paladium going up over the past months is an indication, it is just the by-product of the anticipation of more QE.

What is your point again?

reply to post by Dance4Life


I will make my points simple in the face of the arguments presented.

-Inflation is bad for our country. It strips purchasing power and increases manufacturing costs, which increases unemployment.

-Inflation is a hidden tax

-It is a bad idea to increase inflation in order to raise our 401Ks. The market rising in the face of inflation is a natural byproduct of the actual inflation. It is not the main focus of what Ben is trying to do.

-Quantitative Easing is Ben's method of increasing inflation. It is simply the Federal Reserve Bank pumping 10s of billions of dollars each month into the markets to cause inflation. It is money we literally don't have. Its purpose is to lower the value of our debt by lowering the value of our money.

-It shows desperation in the face of the deflation we were experiencing.

All of this was said to refute your argument that inflation was good because it was increasing your 401k. In that case why not just shoot inflation to the moon so your 401k can hit the heavens?

What liberals dont realize is that with each increase in business (ie wealthy, ie more than 250k a year) taxes, their customers are in turn paying more for the goods sold to them by the businesses. This IS an increase in taxes as the tax increase is passed on to the consumer. It might sound better during election time to vilify the "rich" but in reality it is the consumer than ends up for the worse.

Originally posted by Bugman82
reply to post by Dance4Life

 

I will make my points simple in the face of the arguments presented.

-Inflation is bad for our country. It strips purchasing power and increases manufacturing costs, which increases unemployment.

It isn't bad. The alternative is deflation. Too much of anything is a bad thing. What you are not realizing is that we had so much wealth destroyed in this country we were / are on the brink of rolling back down the hill.

-Inflation is a hidden tax

OK.

-It is a bad idea to increase inflation in order to raise our 401Ks. The market rising in the face of inflation is a natural byproduct of the actual inflation. It is not the main focus of what Ben is trying to do.

We have no inflation currently, or it is not up to the mean of CPI. We are in essense devaluing the dollar, as I already pointed out any gains in the stock market outpace and dollar devaluation you might "feel".

-Quantitative Easing is Ben's method of increasing inflation. It is simply the Federal Reserve Bank pumping 10s of billions of dollars each month into the markets to cause inflation. It is money we literally don't have. Its purpose is to lower the value of our debt by lowering the value of our money.

We do have it. The fed can repurchase this debt. By the way, our debt is the MOST SOUGHT AFTER IN THE WORLD. Take a look at what the yield is currently on the 10 Yr. Note. If you don't know, it will amaze you. Let me know when any other country becomes close, then I will start to worry. Until then, with these rates so what?

-It shows desperation in the face of the deflation we were experiencing.

It isn't like the USA is an unmarried woman in her 40's with no kids, why do we worry about looking desperate?

All of this was said to refute your argument that inflation was good because it was increasing your 401k. In that case why not just shoot inflation to the moon so your 401k can hit the heavens?

We can sell more debt. This is what qe2 premise is about. In fact we could keep doing it and doing it until our Bonds and Notes stop selling. Look at the bid-cover ratios of our Note and Bond auctions. Please, don't come back with "shadow buyers" and all of this. While this may be true, it doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is if you have $10,000,000,000 and you need to keep it somewhere, where do you go? The USA. That is all that currently matters. The aftermath we trust the FED to handle. Whether you are in agreement with these terms or not is of no consequence. It is what it is.

I don't necessarily have an argument with anything you are saying, but the point is that the USA doesn't have to play by the same rules as anyone else. Again, whether that is fair or not, it is not for me to judge. I have been hearing the same comments since the early 90's and if I was 20 years older I am sure I would have been hearing the same back then.

Back again to my only point, and that is that equity markets will always out pace any dollar devaluation. Go back to the 1980's and look forward. Take a look at the Eurodollar, USdx, SP500, Nasdaq.

If you still feel that strongly about it go out and convert some of your money into Euro's with leverage. Although I promise no one else in the world is in much better shape than us. Perhaps Australia currency-wise, but they are the commodity dollar. Their currency lives and dies in that fashion.

Anyway, don't be worried. We will boom and bust again. We are currently undervalued though as much as most of you don't realize this. The market always climbs the wall of worry. Don't worry about the default, xyz situation etc... this is all media hype and like I said community college 101 class conjecture.

Try not to worry so much about these things and enjoy your life. Much better alternative.

reply to post by Dance4Life


I appreciate your response

I am not worried about myself. I am fully liquid at this point in time and saving 58% of my income a month.

The United States is truly treading some interesting waters at this point in time. However, I think using our leverage against other countries is a dangerous mistake. We are making countries and allies alike (China, Brazil, and Japan to name a few) very frustrated with our manipulation.

I don't see how currency manipulation, driving inflation forward, and all of these nearly insane methods are going to work in any way whatsoever. I will not play this game. I will simply maintain zero debt and high savings ratios for the time being. They have pumped so much money into the market and corporations that it is nearly unbelievable and we have had zero change in unemployment and no true indication of recovery.

Latest numbers: www.zerohedge.com...

So yes, inflation has been skyrocketing....

There are strong arguments from all sides and that's what makes this so crazy. There is no real way to know what will happen.

reply to post by Bugman82


You've struck a nice cord here. It's actually impossible to predict exactly how an economic model will turn out when applied to real life. It's actually sort of crazy in that way. We can expect that certain models will have a higher likelihood of success, but there's no way to know how successful these models will be and what individuals and corporations will choose to do.

There's the simple fact that corporations simply aren't hiring as much right now. It's not that the economy hasn't recovered, it's just that the private sector isn't creating jobs for reasons that extend beyond simple economic policy. Trying to streamline their businesses to maximize efficiency is seen as a big bonus right now.

The only people who complain about taxes are the rich. I have to deal with my landlord. When he raises the rent so he can take a vacation to Hawaii or put a new deck on his house it never makes the news.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Few points I'd like to point out:

1) Income tax isn't the only tax. Yes he made modest income tax cuts that are also TEMPORARY.
2) FICA withholding has gone up
3) The Healthcare bill raised or created a variety of new taxes:

- Both the cap-gains and dividend taxes will go up further in 2013 as the health care reform adds a 3.8% Medicare levy for individuals making more than $200,000 a year and joint filers making more than $250,000.

- Healthcare bill halved the child tax credit to $500 from $1,000 and fixing the standard deduction for couples at the same level as it is for single filers.

- The Medicine Cabinet Tax. Americans will no longer be able to use health savings account, flexible spending account, or health reimbursement pretax dollars to purchase nonprescription, over-the-counter medicines (except insulin).

- The HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike. This provision of ObamaCare, increases the additional tax on nonmedical early withdrawals from an HSA (Health savings accounts) from 10% to 20%, disadvantaging them relative to IRAs and other tax-advantaged accounts, which remain at 10%.

- Brand Name Drug Tax. Makers and importers of brand-name drugs will be liable for a tax of $2.5 billion in 2011. The tax goes to $3 billion a year from 2012 to 2016, then $3.5 billion in 2017 and $4.2 billion in 2018. Beginning in 2019 it falls to $2.8 billion and stays there. And who pays the new drug tax? Patients, in the form of higher prices.

4) Small businesses can normally expense (rather than slowly deduct, or 'depreciate') equipment purchases up to $250,000. This will be cut all the way down to $25,000. Larger businesses can expense half of their purchases of equipment. In January of 2011, all of it will have to be 'depreciated. Less deductions equal more taxes.

5) The deduction for tuition and fees will no longer be available and there will be limits placed on education tax credits. Teachers won't be able to deduct their classroom expenses and employer-provided educational aid will be restricted. Thousands of families will no longer be allowed to deduct student loan interest.

6) Then there's the tax on Americans who decline to buy health care insurance (the tax the administration initially said wasn't a tax but now argues in court that it is) plus a 3.8% Medicare tax beginning in 2013 on profits made in real estate transactions by wealthier Americans.

So, in conclusion, when taking the entire tax picture into perspective, not just looking at the income tax, isn't the correct conclusion that Obama HAS raised taxes on businesses and Americans?

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Spending up + lowering taxes = WTF?

It's not like we're in debt or anything

reply to post by Dance4Life


I think it's more accurate to say that the US didn't used to have to play by the same rules as anyone else, but that is increasingly no longer the case, and the US is struggling with that.

tax rates are b.s. someone makes 4x more than you in the 35k -85K tax bracket but only pays 10% more tax. to be fair they should also pay 4x more in taxes. even the 35k-85k bracket isn't fair. someone makes 50k more than you but u have to pay the same in taxes. the highest tax bracket should start at 1 million a year and work its way down. the highest percentage for personal income tax should be 25% with the difference made up by corporations and its stockholders who conviently headquarter their operations on tiny islands in the caribbean and who pay more money in one year to teams of tax lawyers to hide their profits than they do in taxes. income should be taxed on increments of 5k and adjusted accordingly because their is a huge real world difference for people in the 35k-85k bracket. but if it was fair then the elites wouldn't be the elites anymore and they'd lose their benevolent control over you. i advocate to avoid paying taxes as much as possible and negotiate face to face cash transactions where ever possible. it'll be a strange sensation at first regaining control of your life back, but stick with it and you'll start to feel indepenent again.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Dude thank you, and Obama's been saying this from when he was running and people were still saying he was going to raise them. If you look past the whole "he might be the anti-Christ/New World Order Prez" thing that ATSers (myself skeptically included) tend to believe, he really has done good for this country so far. Obviously most people on this website probably don't agree with you and me, but he seems to be doing a good job to me.

Ex: the first commentor. Dude I'm sorry but you have to realize that graph is a biased interpretation of their source material. I don't know if Obama changed his tax plan, but I know for a while he said all he wanted to do was repeal the Bush tax cuts (which directly benefited rich people and left our country with less money)

Income taxes going down? Maybe.

Everything else will go UP.

Obamacare and business tax will kill us. With business's ending health care, that will pass to us....or the sick will just die.

If we are lucky enough to keep our health insurance (I'll be one), we dont know how much it'll cost us in the end.


Business will not be hiring because of health care or will be paying the penalties (TAXES). Guess who will have the extra money business isnt making? No us. We'll pay the difference.


We aint out tha woods yet regardless. I think we're screwed not matter who is in congress or the white house unless some unknown person come's in like a knight on a charger. Too many socialists, communists, marxists, and predatory capitalists.

Oh for just a common sense capitalist.

Originally posted by lldd182
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

Dude thank you, and Obama's been saying this from when he was running and people were still saying he was going to raise them. If you look past the whole "he might be the anti-Christ/New World Order Prez" thing that ATSers (myself skeptically included) tend to believe, he really has done good for this country so far. Obviously most people on this website probably don't agree with you and me, but he seems to be doing a good job to me.

Ex: the first commentor. Dude I'm sorry but you have to realize that graph is a biased interpretation of their source material. I don't know if Obama changed his tax plan, but I know for a while he said all he wanted to do was repeal the Bush tax cuts (which directly benefited rich people and left our country with less money)

OMG it directly benefits everyone. These were not taxs cuts for the "RICH" they were for everyone. i make 60,000 a year. im not rich. starting jan 1 2011 i will be paying an extra $150 more a month in taxes..... explain that to me?

reply to post by camaro68ss


Obama doesn't want your tax cut to expire. They just want the $700 billion worth of tax cuts on individuals making more than $250,000 a year and families in the equivalent bracket and up to expire.

The only way that won't happen is if the Republicans hold that measure hostage.

My taxes were lowered or on things I purchase?

Few points I'd like to point out:

1) Income tax isn't the only tax. Yes he made modest income tax cuts that are also TEMPORARY.
2) FICA withholding has gone up
3) The Healthcare bill raised or created a variety of new taxes:

- Both the cap-gains and dividend taxes will go up further in 2013 as the health care reform adds a 3.8% Medicare levy for individuals making more than $200,000 a year and joint filers making more than $250,000.

- Healthcare bill halved the child tax credit to $500 from $1,000 and fixing the standard deduction for couples at the same level as it is for single filers.

- The Medicine Cabinet Tax. Americans will no longer be able to use health savings account, flexible spending account, or health reimbursement pretax dollars to purchase nonprescription, over-the-counter medicines (except insulin).

- The HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike. This provision of ObamaCare, increases the additional tax on nonmedical early withdrawals from an HSA (Health savings accounts) from 10% to 20%, disadvantaging them relative to IRAs and other tax-advantaged accounts, which remain at 10%.

- Brand Name Drug Tax. Makers and importers of brand-name drugs will be liable for a tax of $2.5 billion in 2011. The tax goes to $3 billion a year from 2012 to 2016, then $3.5 billion in 2017 and $4.2 billion in 2018. Beginning in 2019 it falls to $2.8 billion and stays there. And who pays the new drug tax? Patients, in the form of higher prices.

4) Small businesses can normally expense (rather than slowly deduct, or 'depreciate') equipment purchases up to $250,000. This will be cut all the way down to $25,000. Larger businesses can expense half of their purchases of equipment. In January of 2011, all of it will have to be 'depreciated. Less deductions equal more taxes.

5) The deduction for tuition and fees will no longer be available and there will be limits placed on education tax credits. Teachers won't be able to deduct their classroom expenses and employer-provided educational aid will be restricted. Thousands of families will no longer be allowed to deduct student loan interest.

6) Then there's the tax on Americans who decline to buy health care insurance (the tax the administration initially said wasn't a tax but now argues in court that it is) plus a 3.8% Medicare tax beginning in 2013 on profits made in real estate transactions by wealthier Americans.

So, in conclusion, when taking the entire tax picture into perspective, not just looking at the income tax, isn't the correct conclusion that Obama HAS raised taxes on businesses and Americans?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

Hey look, another off-topic post.

If you want to discuss whether or not taxation in whichever form is or is not theft, please direct it to one of the many threads that has attempted to discuss that. I've readily demonstrated that taxation, unless shown to be an unreasonably burden, cannot be classified as 'theft' in the democratic state.

REPLY: America used to be a Constitutional Representative Republic, but started the downhill slide to a Democracy in the Woodrow Wilson Administration; he was the first "Progressive" (read Communist) president. Still, all in all, we are a republic, that has but very few "Democratic" principles. A true democracy is nothing short of "Mob Rule" meaning: do what you can and give only what you have to to keep them quiet and under control. ANY form of taxation is a burden because it's made under the implied threat of violence; therefore it's theft. Just because government does it doesn't make it any less a crime, as has been mentioned here before in this thread.

Government has the duty to take advice and consent from the electorate; it is not the job of government to place a burden (taxes) on it's citizens to effect "Social Change." That's not governments job. 70% of what our government does it unconstitutional, and it's time it stopped.

Originally posted by Mactire
That ignorance gap is only increased when you factor in that Faux News is number one in media ratings. That just goes to show that millions of people are watching the wrong news networks.

REPLY: No-one forces viewers/listeners to go to Fox news. What happened to Air America? Why did people turn away in droves and they had a biatch of a time getting advertisers? Because, finally, people are becoming less apathetic about politics and have multiple outlets from which to choose. The alphabet channels and Air America have lost the vast majority of their audience because the people gave them a fair shot at providing information, and the people didn't like what they heard. Fox still presents both sides more often than any other network.UCLA (not exactly a bastion of Conservatism) did a study a few years ago, and even they said Fox is more balanced than any other media outlet. Because you don't like their information, don't shoot the messenger.