To the Ignorant Masses Stop Defending Islam

I didn't want to get into the slave issue, because I didn't want to throw the OP off topic, but I will address it.

A Muslim man may have sex with his wife or whom his right hand possesses. Allah commands Muslims that it is more just to free slaves, but if a person keeps a slave, they must treat them without abuse or harm. They must feed them, cloth them, and do not harm to them. Rape is harmful. Be kind does not mean beat her down and rape. It means if your slave is willing, you may have sex. Show me proof of slave rape or prostitution. You can't because Muhammad said you can only have sex with a slave if she consents.

I don't agree with slavery (we are economic slaves to the central banks today), but this does not prove your point of condemning rape in Islam. I'm still waiting for that.

Originally posted by Sahabi
I didn't want to get into the slave issue, because I didn't want to throw the OP off topic, but I will address it.

A Muslim man may have sex with his wife or whom his right hand possesses. Allah commands Muslims that it is more just to free slaves, but if a person keeps a slave, they must treat them without abuse or harm. They must feed them, cloth them, and do not harm to them. Rape is harmful. Be kind does not mean beat her down and rape. It means if your slave is willing, you may have sex. Show me proof of slave rape or prostitution. You can't because Muhammad said you can only have sex with a slave if she consents.

I don't agree with slavery (we are economic slaves to the central banks today), but this does not prove your point of condemning rape in Islam. I'm still waiting for that.

Show Me where muhammad said you can only have sex with your slave is she allows it, and further how can you logically argue that a woman after watching her husband be killed, would willingly want to have sex with one of the attackers, if anything but fear for her life she would "allow" it.

Originally posted by Sahabi
reply to post by Sacri

 

This post you did nothing but quote "people," you did not quote Allah (Qur'an) or Muhammad. Islam is Allah and Muhammad, not Imams, sheiks, or caliphs.

Not claiming this is mine but I found this also in my notes.



"He [the Lord of Alexandria] presented to the prophet Mariyah, her sister Sirin, a donkey and a mule which was white....The apostle of Allah liked Mariyah who was of white complexion and curly hair and pretty.... Then he cohabited with Mariyah as a handmaid and sent her to his property which he had acquired from Banu al-Nadir."
The note for the word "handmaid" says "Handmaids gained the status of wedded wives if they bore children. They were called "umm walad" and became free.
This story is also supported by Tabari's History, volume 39, page 194. Here is the quote
"He (Muhammad) used to visit her (Mariyam) there and ordered her to veil herself, [but] he had intercourse with her by virtue of her being his property."
The note (845) on this says, "That is, Mariyah was ordered to veil herself as did the Prophet's wives, but he did not marry her."

Please stop calling me ignorant, apologist, or western Muslim.

Instead of: 1.) Staying on topic. 2.) Answering or acknowledging each one of my points. 3.) Giving answers based on Qur'anic or Historical quotes.
You chose to call me names?


Yeah man, I live in Ohio, but I am not "western". I am "eastern". Laotian to be exact. It's so cool to be quadrilingual (Laotian, English, Spanish, Arabic).

And I did not learn "western Islam". I learned Islam directly from an Egyptian sheikh. He is so fantastically intelligent in every aspect of Islam. He always emphasized to me, "You can not just read part of the religion without proper understanding. When you do, you see all of the different sects come, and you see people doing things in the name of Islam that are completely forbidden."

He told me that you can not just read a verse from the Qur'an and think you know it. There is a history and a wisdom behind every single sentence.

This part is very important, please listen. The Qur'an was not revealed in the order you see it written. One sentence here, a few paragraphs there, and not at all revealed in "chronological" order. Each sentence of the Qur'an is documented as to when it was revealed, and under what circumstances. This is called Tafsir. You must research the Tafsir about the verse to get the real meaning. When I say the real meaning, I mean, it is directly when, why, under what circumstances, and Muhammad's personal explanation of the sentence. Muhammad fully interrupted every single sentence of the Qur'an. He did this so people would not create their own interpretations, and would not be taken out of context.

You are quoting everything out of context. Muslims are only Religiously Ordained to fight when they are attacked first. Everything else is a sin and not according to Islam.

reply to post by Sacri


Are you familiar with the word "sahih"? In Islamic terminology, sahih means sound evidence, extremely trustworthy and accurate. Anything below the rating of sahih is questionable. Questionable as a lie, a misrepresention, an elaboration, or a misquote. So to keep to the most pure of sources, I only accept these four sources:

• Qur'an
• Sahih al-Bukhari
• Sahih Muslim
• Tafsir according to Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim


I was taught following Imams, sheikhs, muftis, scholars, and less than sahih sources will lead to misunderstanding the religion. To understand the religion you read Qur'an, you read Sahih stories of the words and actions of Muhammad, and you read Tafsir that explains each sentence of the Qur'an. Islam is about purity of the message. You only stick to the solid core truths.

I respectfully "Foe" you.

Sacri, in all honesty I enjoyed this debate, because I haven't been in one in a while. However, you are taking the verses out of context without doing the back research of the verses you quote (tafsir). You are pretending that the Rules of Engagement of when to go to war do not exist. You are not addressing my points and instead go off topic to another point. You are not quoting sahih (trustworthy) hadiths (sayings and actions of Muhammad). You are resorting to name calling.

Sorry bro, I don't want to waste anymore of my time. If you have any questions or doubts, go re-read my replies, I said everything already. I will not reply to this thread anymore.

I wish you would not quote without knowledge. You are just spreading hate the same way terrorists are. You teach non-Muslims to hate, while the imams teach the Muslims to hate. Both sides extremely polarized. Emotional hate leads to physical manifestations of that hate. The hate fueling both sides is just what the shadow government wants. I am trying to spread truth and peace. Sorry I can't help you at this time. May Peace be upon you, and may truth light your path.

reply to post by Sacri


Islam isn't much worse than Christianity at its base. The only difference is that Christianity is practiced primarily in parts of the world that are significantly more stable than where Islam is practiced.

First of all: How dare you calling someone (the readers of your thread that don't share your opinion) ignorant.

Calling someone ignorant on his opinion about religion or beliefs doesn't make you any better as those who use religion to control their sheeps and fool the minds of the naive.

Religion has and will always be a point of contention between the people.

Islam, Christianity, Judaism, whatever (non 100% spiritual) religion has had his bad days.
Every believer wants their god the be the only one.

Why do so many people fear Islam? Because it's new. Because it's unknown. And because, as a totaly natural reaction, it is prejudged by negativ and self-protectiv statements.

Remember the roman reaction to chrstianity? Does the word 'crusades' ring a bell? Doesn't history give you enough examples of how religion was used to achieve political / social goals?

You can quote as many verses of the Quaran as you want. I can do the same with any other religious book. Do you know about the chapters that were removed from the bible to 'update it for the modern society?

Religion, as a spiritual guide, a personal helping hand, a way of understand the world IS NOT BAD!
Wether it's islamism, christianity, $insertreligionhere.

I am very offended by your post title. I am not religious. My parents are christians, i do have jewish, islamic friends. Friends who have the Bahaî-Faith (sry if i'm misspelling it) and many other cultures and believes.

If you use Cannabis, Alcohol, Chocolate to compensate/ignore problems. It's bad.
If you do it with friends for fun and personal enjoyment. Go on.

The same goes with religion. I don't have any problems with any religion, as long as they don't interfere with the public life.

Jesus Christ. I really can't understand it. 21st Century and we are still fighting, debating and arguing over religions.

And yes there are countries who (ab)use the Islam, no better, (ab)use the naivety of people and their need for spirituality for their one goals. But that was and is also done by many other religions. And yes, also christianity.

In the words of a famous man:
"Thou Shalt Keep Thy Religion To Thyself" G. Carlin

reply to post by TheDeader




I agree with quite a lot of what you said and even though I've said it before already in this thread I will say it again I treat Christianity with the same View as I do Islam, because I can see past the bull#, and see it for what it truly is.




Islam is not new it has been around for quite some time.


It is a shame its the 21st century and we are still fighting over Religion, as we have been for the last how ever many thousands of years. If a religion wanted to go about their ways and harm no one, leaving anyone who dis-agreed with their religion to peace that would be fine with me.

However the christian and the Islamic Religions do not allow such ways.


Hitchens said it best Religion Poisons Everything


I agree that many principles in Religion are honorable and noteworthy and should be practiced by many, but these arnt "religious" principles these are simply world Principles that have been forgotten over time. Helping an old lady with her groceries isn't an act of "god" just as smiling and being friendly isn't an act of "allah" these are simple things that we as human have forgotten about as we become more and more self centered.


If people want to be Islamic that's their choice, but don't sugarcoat it for those who don't understand it fully.

reply to post by oozyism


I'm still patiently waiting for your reply Sacri.

It seems you don't know what you are talking about, and seems you are not confident in your claims.

I want you to go back to the verses you posted and tell us which parts you disagree with, I will post it for all to see:

Sura 3.(54) (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ. (55) As for those who disbelieve I shall chastise them with a heavy chastisement in the world and the Hereafter; and they will have no helpers. (56) And as for those who believe and do good works, He will pay them their wages in full. Allah loveth not wrong-doers. (57) This (which) We recite unto thee is a revelation and a wise reminder.


We can see here that it is a wise reminder to do good works and to stay true to the beliefs of Allah because Allah Chastises those who don't believe.



Lets jump down a few chapters.


sura 8.(8) When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank. (9) Allah appointed it only as good tidings, and that your hearts thereby might be at rest. Victory cometh only by the help of Allah. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise. (10) When He made the slumber fall upon you as a reassurance from him and sent down water from the sky upon you, that thereby He might purify you, and remove from you the fear of Satan, and make strong your hearts and firm (your) feet thereby. (11) When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. (12) That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment. (13) That (is the award), so taste it, and (know) that for disbelievers is the torment of the Fire. (14) O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (15) Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end. (16) Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them.



Sura 9.(25) Then Allah sent His peace of reassurance down upon His messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts ye could not see, and punished those who disbelieved. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (26) Then afterward Allah will relent toward whom He will; for Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (27) O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise. (28) Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. (29) And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! (30) They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

Tell us exactly which parts do you disagree, or think supports terrorism, or murder etc..

reply to post by oozyism




Mate I am not going to waste my time dissecting every single passage only to have you tell me I am reading it wrong. You didn't even make the effort to read my OP so I'm not wasting any effort on you champ.


It's their in plain English for all to see.

Originally posted by Sacri
reply to post by oozyism

 

Mate I am not going to waste my time dissecting every single passage only to have you tell me I am reading it wrong. You didn't even make the effort to read my OP so I'm not wasting any effort on you champ.


It's their in plain English for all to see.

Let me get this straight, you wasted your time writing the above, but you don't want to take not even 1 minute of your time hilighting the above verses you posted as evidence of how bad and terroristic Islam is?

All you have to do is copy these verses:

Sura 3.(54) (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ. (55) As for those who disbelieve I shall chastise them with a heavy chastisement in the world and the Hereafter; and they will have no helpers. (56) And as for those who believe and do good works, He will pay them their wages in full. Allah loveth not wrong-doers. (57) This (which) We recite unto thee is a revelation and a wise reminder.


We can see here that it is a wise reminder to do good works and to stay true to the beliefs of Allah because Allah Chastises those who don't believe.



Lets jump down a few chapters.


sura 8.(8) When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank. (9) Allah appointed it only as good tidings, and that your hearts thereby might be at rest. Victory cometh only by the help of Allah. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise. (10) When He made the slumber fall upon you as a reassurance from him and sent down water from the sky upon you, that thereby He might purify you, and remove from you the fear of Satan, and make strong your hearts and firm (your) feet thereby. (11) When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. (12) That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment. (13) That (is the award), so taste it, and (know) that for disbelievers is the torment of the Fire. (14) O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (15) Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end. (16) Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them.



Sura 9.(25) Then Allah sent His peace of reassurance down upon His messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts ye could not see, and punished those who disbelieved. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (26) Then afterward Allah will relent toward whom He will; for Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (27) O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise. (28) Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. (29) And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! (30) They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

Then paste it in a reply, then highlight the verses you think is evil and terroristic.

Make us proud and don't let this thread go to waste

[yvidwww.youtube.com...[/yvid]king was intelligent, knowledge able and was having true understanding that what should be measures of judgment

All your religions are methodologies of control, brought to you by the forces of the negative. They feed off the emotionality created during your rituals. If you are a true seeker, find your answers from inside.