To the Ignorant Masses Stop Defending Islam

Originally posted by Sahabi
You are spewing pure Islamic disinfo and hatred! The message you are spreading to anti-islamists is the same message being spread to Muslims by their twisted imams. Please stop it sir, you are helping to polarize non-Muslims against Muslims. Believe you me, I say the same to Islamic extremists.

The CIA has positioned these Islamic fundamentalists around the world to polarize hate to Muslims against non-believers. Who gots their heads deep up the Saudi's butt's? The CIA! Who helped fund Osama, Wahabism, and the Taliban? The CIA! Wake up dude. I'm telling you man, according to strict Islam, those terrorists are in deep s# when they meet Allah. They are CIA Fundamentalists, not Islamic.

reply to
post by Sacri

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"


Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Hell yeah that's right! If you don't want to get f# up, don't attack another person! I would give that advice to anyone of any religion or lack thereof! Dude, it says to f# somebody up if they attack you first.

Buddy Muslims have been killing people long before the CIA exsisted.


Ok So I wont attack a second person but what about the second verse I quoted, and there are many more like it where it states against those who simply disbelieve.

reply to post by Sacri


Maybe I am writing too much to digest all at once. The point I wish to stress to anti-islamists and Islamic terrorists is this:

"All of the verses of violence only apply after one has been attacked."


When to engage in war?

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; For Allah loveth not transgressors." Surah 2 Ayah 190

"To fight against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged; and verily, Allah is Most Powerful for their aid." Surah 22 Ayah 39

"....whoever kills a single soul unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land, it is though he had killed all of humanity together, and whoever saves the life of a single soul, it is as though he had saved the life of all of humanity together..." Surah 5 Ayah 32

Originally posted by Sahabi

Islamic Military Rules of Engagement:

1. Peace to all of humanity.
2. Never attack a people that have not wronged you.
3. If you are attacked, fight with bravery, fight with tooth and nail, fight to win, and never give up.
4. Do not kill women
5. Do not kill children
6. Do not kill the elderly
7. Do not kill any monk of any religion, that devotes their entire life to the service of their religion in a church, temple, etc.
8. Do not burn people, homes, or trees.
9. Do not kill the animals of the land.
10. Do not burn or mutilate dead bodies.
11. Rape is forbidden at ALL times, even in war. All Muslim men are commanded by Allah to only have sex with their wife. No premarital sex, or sex out of wedlock.
12. Do not kill another Muslim ever! No "friendly fire."
13. Be kind to enemy Prisoners of War. Give them an immediate execution or choose to free them. While in custody, do not torture them or mistreat them. Offer them cold, clean water.
14. If the enemy surrenders, immediately create peace.
15. If the enemy become Muslim, immediately create peace.
16. Do not surrender.
17. The only time you are permitted to lie is at times of open war to save your life. It is more honorable to tell the truth, but if you fear death so much that a lie will save you, you will not be counted as a liar.

1. The quran is full of scriptures that condem all those who don't believe and wishes the foulest of things upon them, which is not taken out of any context whatsoever.
2. So if someone has "wronged" you its ok to cut their fingers off ?
4-11 Muhammed was a massive advocater and perpetrater of all these points.

Originally posted by Sahabi

Those are the exact Military Rules of Conduct. Any "Muslim" acting outside those laws are disobeying Allah. All the violent verses (the only ones ignorant people chose to solely quote) are elaborations of fighting AFTER an enemy of Islam launches the first transgression!

What about all the voilent verses that refer to the people that simply don't believe in Allah ??

Originally posted by Sahabi
I will give exact Islamic references to any of those points to any anti-Islamist or Islamic Terrorist that fails to read Islam in full, and out of context. When you study the religion as a whole, and not out of context, you will not be polarized by hate in either direction.

Ive studied many religions in full and I hate them all equally as Hitchens say Religion Poisons EVERYTHING

reply to post by Sacri


Show me examples that Muhammad ordered killing of women, children, elderly, and rape. Show me historical evidence that Muhammad did these things, or that the Muslim Army did these things while Muhammad was alive. You can not because you are spreading disinfo and lying.

ALL of the violent verses only only apply when Muslims are attacked first. All of the verses of violence against non-believers are only valid if they attack a Muslim. You keep ignoring this fact just like the Islamic Terrorists, God I'm glad you're not a Muslim right now!

If Muslims are supposed to run around killing every non-muslim, this is proved false by examining the peace treaties Muhammad made with Christian Kingdoms.

You sir are ignoring facts! War only applies once one is attacked first. Quote me a verse that says to launch a preemptive war, or specifically says go kill somebody for no reason. You can't, because the only verses that say when to kill say to only do so once attacked first. All the other verses only explain the violence after war has started.

Originally posted by Sahabi
reply to post by Sacri

 

When to engage in war?

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; For Allah loveth not transgressors." Surah 2 Ayah 190

"To fight against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged; and verily, Allah is Most Powerful for their aid." Surah 22 Ayah 39

"....whoever kills a single soul unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land, it is though he had killed all of humanity together, and whoever saves the life of a single soul, it is as though he had saved the life of all of humanity together..." Surah 5 Ayah 32

Bro, I feel your pain about the terrorists, and the honor killings, and the honor rapes, and limiting women's rights. This s# makes me sick too! Those things I just listed are not sanctioned ANYWHERE in the Qur'an. I'll explain why some of this is so wide-spread.

The Qur'an is written in old-age Classical Arabic. Arabs speak Modern Arabic and barely understand the Qur'an. It is as different as Old English and Modern English. The Pakistanis that speak Urdu, the Iranians that speak Farsi, etc. do not understand Classical Arabic either!

However, they all read it in the Classical Arabic, because those are the actual words of Allah via Muhammad. These Muslims have to believe their Imams' (community leader) interpretation, unless they take the time to study Classical Arabic or read Qur'an in their native language. Many do not read Qur'an in their native language because the Qur'an is not "the" Qur'an unless it is recited out loud in it's original Classical Arabic.

No where in Islam does it say to honor kill your daughter, or honor rape her, or limit her rights the way Saudis and Afghanis do. You will not find this anywhere in the Qur'an! It happens because it is an Arab custom, not an Islamic custom... BIG difference.

Originally posted by Sahabi
Bro, I feel your pain about the terrorists, and the honor killings, and the honor rapes, and limiting women's rights. This s# makes me sick too! Those things I just listed are not sanctioned ANYWHERE in the Qur'an. I'll explain why some of this is so wide-spread.

You know what else makes me sick seeing a Muslim on the news telling the population his religion is one of love and peace, and condeming acts of the extremists world wide. Makes me sick to watch their mouths spit out these vile and filthy lies.


You have ignored for about 6 posts now my reference to the quran teaching hatred, dis-embowerment and killing of NON-BELIEVERS it's not just about fighting those who have attacked first but, also to attack those who simply choose not to share the same beliefs in Allah.


No where in the versus you have shown me does it prove that the scriptures relating to killing those who don't believe in allah is only ok if people attack first.


You might be able to show me 20 versus (if that) showing these so called "rules" of jihad where I could show you over 500 versus of hatred, killing, tortue of not only people who fight against Muslims, but of simply non-believers.



You sir are ignoring facts, you cant pick what versus you like from the quran and throw away the ones you don't like. Take the whole thing or don't

Islam is a religion of hate, violence, and murder. Facts are Facts

reply to post by Sacri


I can conclude, without even fully reading the whole OP, that you have probably brought the same verses thousands of other anti-Islamists has brought, and worse, you probably have absolutely no clue how easily you are deceived by more smarter anti-Islamists who have intentionally tricked you.

Funnily, not everyone in ATS is stupid enough to believe bringing a passage from a whole book defines the book. Read the whole book

Now the interesting point I'm trying to make, is the fact that I know what you are gonna say without even reading the OP, I still don't know what verses you have brought, but I can say with confidence that it is the same BS others have brought, and have failed miserably

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by Sacri

 

I can conclude, without even fully reading the whole OP, that you have probably brought the same verses thousands of other anti-Islamists has brought, and worse, you probably have absolutely no clue how easily you are deceived by more smarter anti-Islamists who have intentionally tricked you.

Funnily, not everyone in ATS is stupid enough to believe bringing a passage from a whole book defines the book. Read the whole book

Now the interesting point I'm trying to make, is the fact that I know what you are gonna say without even reading the OP, I still don't know what verses you have brought, but I can say with confidence that it is the same BS others have brought, and have failed miserably

If you had made any sort of attempt to read this thread you would know I have read the whole quran, being a religious nutter myself for 22 years, I did many studies, regarding Islam, and other religions.


It is not me who is being tricked, it's all the bleeding hearts out there that cry for the "poor persecuted" muslims, Leave islam alone they say its a religion of love and peace.


Take the quran versus as they are written, not by some western muslims twisted viewpoint on a few versus to try and justify and lay claim to the fact that Islam is not as it is made out to be by the extremists when in fact it is excatly that

reply to post by Sacri


Once again, does one passage define a book?

How about this sentence:

"Don't pray, if you are intoxicated."

I can bring the first part of the sentence, out of a whole book and claim the book is ordering its followers not to pray, hence "don't pray", without the knowledge of "if you are intoxicated", you will be tricked no doubt...

There are stupid people everywhere, but there aren't that many in ATS.

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by Sacri

 

Once again, does one passage define a book?

How about this sentence:

"Don't pray, if you are intoxicated."

I can bring the first part of the sentence, out of a whole book and claim the book is ordering its followers not to pray, hence "don't pray", without the knowledge of "if you are intoxicated", you will be tricked no doubt...

There are stupid people everywhere, but there aren't that many in ATS.

No Champ one passage does not define a book, Do you want me to list every single fricken passage commanding the killing, tortue and, mutilation of non-believers, and people who attack the Muslims?

Didn't think so.
There wouldn't be enough room.


Your example is stupid, an quite and idiotic statement. So thank you for showing me one of the very few stupid people on this board

I apologize that I did not read the replies to this thread before posting my response. But the truth is that I tend to get really angry in these threads and have learned to simply not read them.

Having said that...

I do not defend Islam. But I do defend the right of others to be Muslim. I do not care if the people I defend would defend me in return. I do not care if the people I defend would even tolerate my existence. I defend them because I am, in effect, defending my own freedoms by fighting for theirs.

All of the hyperbole, semantics, and partisan bickering doesn't cloud this concept for me. I heartily defend freedom, on principle, and with the whole of myself.

And for those who say that I am a fool and that Shariah law will come to claim me for my ignorance... I say, whatever. I'd fight that attempt to mute my freedoms as vigorously as I fight here.

~Heff

reply to post by Sacri

list every single fricken passage commanding the killing, tortue and, mutilation of non-believers, and people who attack the Muslims?

Yes, do that, and while doing it don't bring the verses isolated. I gave you an example of the isolation I'm talking about, hence isolating the first part of a sentence from the last:

"dont pray, if you are intoxicated".

The red part is the command, the yellow part is the condition which must be met before the command met.

So please, go ahead and bring all those verses, but don't forget to add the conditions which has to be met before the command is to be follow. You only need to read couple of verses before and after to see with your Googly eyes

Sacri,
I did not ignore anything you have said to me, I have addressed everyone of your points. Maybe you are just not reading?

You make points without backing up your claims. You said Muhammad sanctioned and encouraged rape, killing of women, children, elderly, and burnings. Please provide your evidence in Qur'an or historical records. You can't do it, because you are making up stuff.

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by Sacri

 

list every single fricken passage commanding the killing, tortue and, mutilation of non-believers, and people who attack the Muslims?

Yes, do that, and while doing it don't bring the verses isolated. I gave you an example of the isolation I'm talking about, hence isolating the first part of a sentence from the last:

"dont pray, if you are intoxicated".

The red part is the command, the yellow part is the condition which must be met before the command met.

So please, go ahead and bring all those verses, but don't forget to add the conditions which has to be met before the command is to be follow. You only need to read couple of verses before and after to see with your Googly eyes

edit on 12-10-2010 by oozyism because: color

Sura/chapter 3 is talking mainly about Allah saving the believers and putting the non-believers into hell, what they will suffer ect. Read the first 50 versus if you like,



Sura 3.(54) (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ. (55) As for those who disbelieve I shall chastise them with a heavy chastisement in the world and the Hereafter; and they will have no helpers. (56) And as for those who believe and do good works, He will pay them their wages in full. Allah loveth not wrong-doers. (57) This (which) We recite unto thee is a revelation and a wise reminder.


We can see here that it is a wise reminder to do good works and to stay true to the beliefs of Allah because Allah Chastises those who don't believe.



Lets jump down a few chapters.


sura 8.(8) When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank. (9) Allah appointed it only as good tidings, and that your hearts thereby might be at rest. Victory cometh only by the help of Allah. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise. (10) When He made the slumber fall upon you as a reassurance from him and sent down water from the sky upon you, that thereby He might purify you, and remove from you the fear of Satan, and make strong your hearts and firm (your) feet thereby. (11) When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. (12) That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment. (13) That (is the award), so taste it, and (know) that for disbelievers is the torment of the Fire. (14) O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (15) Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end. (16) Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them.



Sura 9.(25) Then Allah sent His peace of reassurance down upon His messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts ye could not see, and punished those who disbelieved. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (26) Then afterward Allah will relent toward whom He will; for Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (27) O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise. (28) Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. (29) And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! (30) They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!



Don't try and tell me that these scriptures don't mean excatly what they have been written to mean

reply to post by Sacri


It would be great to know what specific part of those verses you think justifies terrorism, or justifies the murder of innocent people or worse justifies rape, torture, blablabla.

Originally posted by Sahabi
Sacri,
I did not ignore anything you have said to me, I have addressed everyone of your points. Maybe you are just not reading?

You make points without backing up your claims. You said Muhammad sanctioned and encouraged rape, killing of women, children, elderly, and burnings. Please provide your evidence in Qur'an or historical records. You can't do it, because you are making up stuff.

ROM THE QURAN - 70:22-30



"Not so the worshippers, who are steadfast in prayer, who set aside a due portion of their wealth for the beggar and for the deprived, who truly believe in the Day of Reckoning and dread the punishment of their Lord (for none is secure from the punishment of their Lord); who restrain their carnal desire (save with their wives and their slave girls, for these are lawful to them: he that lusts after other than these is a transgressor..."

Slave girls giving consenual sex? I doubt it.

I can't remember where I found this it has been sitting in my notes for quite some time, but here it is anyway.

1) Dr. Abdul Latif, from Al-Azhar writes "The second reason (to take slaves) is the sexual propagation of slaves which would generate more slaves for the owner." [Taken from "You Ask, Islam Answers, page 51,52].


2) The great Islamic scholar Ibn Timmiya wrote:"The one who owns the mother also owns her children. Being the master of the mother makes him the owner of her children whether they were born to a husband or they were illegitimate children. Therefore, the master has the right to have sexual intercourse with the daughters of his maid slave because they are the daughters of his property, provided he does not sleep with the mother at the same time"...Vol. 35, page 54.


3) I also want to note that Umar, the 2nd Caliph also committed what seems to be rape of a female slave. From Ibn Sa'd, volume 2, Page 438 "A slave girl passed by me who attracted me, and I cohabited with her while I was fasting".


In effect, during his fast, he noticed an attractive slave girl. He used her sexually. There is no mention of her being his "wife". There is no mention that he ever "married" her. She looked good, and he took her.


Thereis also documented evidence that Muhammad had sex with his slave girl, rape is defined as 1.
the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2.any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.


Don't tell me a slave girl willingly had sex with their "masters"

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by Sacri

 

It would be great to know what specific part of those verses you think justifies terrorism, or justifies the murder of innocent people or worse justifies rape, torture, blablabla.

Didn't even make the effort to read it did you?

You keep quoting the violent parts of the Qur'an without referring to the Rules of Engagement. There are verses about war, verses about peace. Verses about being kind to non-believers, and verses saying to kill them. You think the first Muslims would not have noticed this "contradiction?" There was no confusion to the first Muslims, because their actions show they were kind to all of humanity, and only fought when attacked.

• Show me historical evidence that Muhammad attacked any tribe preemptively without any provocation, or having an alliance with a military enemy.

• Muhammad's FIRST ally was the Christian King of Abyssinia (Ethiopia). If Muslims are to kill all non-believers for no reason, how is it logical that Muhammad made peace treaties with nations of different religions?

• If (as you say) we are to ignore the peaceful verses and go straight to the most violent, why do we not see this happen in the real life, historical actions of Muhammad or his army?


Answer each point and the previous reply if you can. The answer is, violence is only lawful if one is attacked. Muhammad said so, Allah said so, Muhammad's actions proved it, and so did the actions of his followers while he was alive.

reply to post by Sacri


I did, but I'm thinking how can I counter anything here if I don't know what I'm countering.

At least post a point in regards to these verses, what is your point, or if you are saying terrorism etc, then show me exactly where terrorism is justified.

You should have highlighted the verses you thought proved your point (what ever that maybe), rather than highlighting all of them, that way I would know what to counter.

reply to post by Sacri


This post you did nothing but quote "people," you did not quote Allah (Qur'an) or Muhammad. Islam is Allah and Muhammad, not Imams, sheiks, or caliphs.